I spent a lot of time getting a set-up together with a little tube amp, with some tweaks, mic'd through the PA. Then I thought, well, is it honestly much better than playing through pedals? Does it really make a difference, musically? And even then, would anyone notice? And aren't pedals more convenient (reliable, lighter, less fuss)?
So for a while I've been using pedals perfectly happily. Then, on a whim, I tried the tube amp setup. And immediately thought - this is just so much better. No filigree A/B comparisons or analysis. And no I don't think anyone will notice particularly. I bet if I'd recorded it, I'd have heard little difference.
But, gut reaction, I liked it better. I enjoyed playing it more. There it is, a subjective opinion with no evidence.
I bet when I've played it for a while, the effect will wear off and I'll go back to the pedal set-up and wonder what I was on about. Like not feeling the benefit of jumper when you wear it indoors (hmm I think that analogy works.)
I wonder if this is the root of the strong love people have for particular harp models. The end result output isn't much different IMO, but it's about the enjoyment you get from some or other aspect of playing them. I don't get that myself.
Interesting post. Sometimes I think 'I just like using an amp', like it's an aesthetic appeal above anything else. And definitely that was why I played MS Blues Harps in the older days, pre internet shopping. I liked the idea of s wooden comb and that's what there was in the shop (no marine bands those days, in the local shops) Now...I put Zajac paper/resin combs on my harps...and i like sp20s so I dunno. I'm typing because I've got a broken b radical in front of me and I'm not sure how to tackle the problem...but that's enough avoidance. Back to the task...
I'm swayed by aesthetics, no question. In this case I did think it was actually better. I was surprised. But I'm going with the Rontana Principle: if I'm enjoying more, it's better.
I do think it's a good test: after all the fussy A/B-ing where I convince myself of one thing above another. Then leave it until I've forgotten all that, and listen with fresh ears.
I learnt to do that with my practice recordings. Leave them a few days and revisit, then it's like listening to someone else playing and I can properly assess them. Quite an odd experience sometimes.
Good luck with your b radical, whatever that is. Related to de-skunking the dog? :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 05, 2016 2:39 AM
This is number 658...I'm not sure how many Harrison B-Radical harps were eventually built. The reeds are kinda special...milled lengthwise. I think I've managed to save this one but I'll leave the rest of the job for tomorrow. It's the 9th harp I've mended today...and the last few were 'interesting'.
Update: Unfortunately tubes are still best. Spurred on by trying that Fender Champion 100 at home, I tried out a Champion 40 at a rehearsal. Sounds great for guitar, it really does. And although it definitely worked at all for harp, it just wasn't as good as the little tube amp. And I mean really, objectively, not just golden-ears stuff. It's disappointing, I wish they did work for all sorts of reasons: price, weight, reliability and onboard reverb/delay.
- When distorting it has a softer sound. The tube amp has that edgey bark available. We were talking about dynamic range for acoustic harps, well it's a similar thing, more dynamic response. If I just play through one amp, I can convince myself it's OK, but when I have them side-by-side it's obvious.
- Although it had much more volume available, I couldn't use it as it created feedback at a low volume, even with the gain backed off.
It worked best on its clean channel, with the Harp Break up front. Perfectly good, but in this mode, it didn't have any advantages over the Harp Break -> PA.
There are people that say these are nuances and they don't matter, and us beginners shouldn't be bothering with them. To those people I say, fine you play with a modelling amp then. I'll use my tube amp.
And the thing is, my tube amp is a cheap one, at the simple end. I've tweaked it, but nothing radical.
Your amp is a 5F1 champ clone...about as simple as they get...the design is sound. It's a well-established good basic design for a harp amp. From what I've seen, yours has a better speaker than the stock unit and the coupling caps appeared to be non-stock also...so I assume better quality or a changed value...for harp we usually go to .1 - .22 microfarad for these... Really no reason your amp would be terribly inferior to my homemade 5F1 in terms of the sound it makes. Longevity may be a different matter but even then, I wouldn't bet on it. I do like mine.
Ok, well that's good. But I don't want to be relying on a piece of kit like that. It's the 21st century for goodness sake. Why oh why don't these modelling amps do the thing? There must be technical reason, and someone must know it.
My guess for now is that there is some particular feature that the harp/signal exposes or exploits, and that a guitar signal doesn't. So it's of no interest and not included or tested for in the model.
I remember in the early days of piano emulators, the blub always said how lifelike the models were. When I looked in detail, of course there were a bunch of compromises that meant many of the features of an acoustic piano weren't really there, coz there are loads of different things. They got better over the years.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 11, 2016 4:21 AM
I'm both complaining and celebrating. On the one hand it's nice there is some mystery left. The glow of the valves, the physicality of it. The idea that the old technology can't be beaten. The 'I play a valve amp, well, of course, don't you?'. Very nice vibe.
On the other hand, those guitarist there, they have access to inexpensive equipment that sounds really good, and I'm jealous.
One day that Joyo will go South and I'll have to go on some ridiculous quest to replace it. I have tried other tube amps and they didn't have that quality, actually. Maybe though it's as simple buying a Memphis Mini or HarpTrain these days.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 12, 2016 1:15 AM
'Tube amp' covers quite a range of different units. I don't expect you'd have much trouble either repairing or replacing that amp. A valve amp does benefit from some maintenance though. I can't be sure it's the most common circuit, but it's a very common and popular circuit. I've even got one here. The MM is one too, almost...we can't afford those, here...we have to buy whatever it is the Joyo is called when they sell it here, and do a few mods to it...or maybe that's just my idea..
There is a distributor for the Harp Train 10 here in the UK, its £300. I'm just not into quests involving solving puzzles, climbing vine-covered turrets, slaying dragons and all that to find some vintage machine on sale in Hull.
I have heard of someone locally who repairs valve amps though, but people's time tends to be expensive.
When I look inside, it's all so simple, but I know my soldering skills are poor so my own repairs would be inelegant. I've seen your tasteful soldering work Superbee, so I know.
-- As an aside, I read the Harp Train Blurb and it makes a feature of it NOT having an oversized output transformer - so as to give a vintage tone. I remember the Memphis Mini blurb makes a feature of HAVING an oversized transformer. 'Big Iron' I think it's referred to. So there you go!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 13, 2016 4:52 AM
Rick Davis go for the "big iron" in order to get more bass of the amp, the HT go for a vintage tone whit the small transformers. At least as far as I know. ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Thanks rogonzab, I see. That's a good thing I think, at least there is a choice. I had got the impression that most people (on MBH at least) favoured lots of bass in the sound but I like, as well, that brittle sound you often hear on the records.
I keep meaning to try one of those valve pre-amps like you have the Behringer Ultragain or the Art Tube MP. But I'm prepared for them not being a substitute for an actual amp. The models with 'voicing' have modelling circuitry in (so it says), and I'd might reasonably expect to find the same thing as the other modelling pedals. i.e. a soft sound. I have read them described as 'buttery' which doesn't sound promising.
I dont like that "all bass" sound, I much prefer an "all mids" sound.
I have owned a Behringer Mic 100, and a Art Tube MP, and in my expirence, the Behringer is better for harp. Why? it is more easy to distort (because is a "worst" preamp than the Art, which is a "good" and clean preamp), you can get a good sound out it straight into the PA (I played a gig like that). ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
That's useful info. Have you compared it with a Harp Break? I like the idea, only it would have to be significantly more organically tubey than the HB to be worth it.
On your YT demo https://youtu.be/DHyqdSqjCzs you helpfully show the lights, and you don't seem to be anywhere near clipping. I understand it has a 20dB pad switch - is that in or out?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 14, 2016 11:01 AM
Yes, I played whit both of them in my house. The HB go for the "all Bass" sound (it temove a bit of the highs and it has a bass boost) and the Mic 100 is more "clean" does not alter tone (at leas to me). For me I liked more the sound from de Behringer, but I use the HB in gigs because I can trust in the HB (it is designed for harp by pros)
Here are 4 videos of me using the Behringer and the HB:
Harp: Suzuki Harpmaster G Mic: JT30 whit original MC-101 Behringer Mic100 Usb gutiar link Interface Recorded in Reaper
Behringer Mic100 (guitar + harp) straight into my pc, no interface.
Edited in Reaper
Testing the Behringer Tube Ultragain mic100 whit harp.
The mic straight into the amp, then whit the Mic100 preamp. Those 2 segment where at the same volume (tested whit decibel-o-meter app), and the last segment is louder.
First test whit the Mic100 is whit gain at 0 and the output at 1/4, then the gain almost all the way up, and the output almost down.
Harp: Honer Marine Band in A Mic: DIY $2 dynamic element from a vocal mic. Amp: Laney Cub 10 (Eminence 1028k speaker) Tone:5 Volumen:10 Gain:3. (20dB pad switch OFF)
Amp: Laney Cub 10 stock (Tone:3 Vol:10 Gain:4) Mic: Universal 312 shell whit s dynamic element from harpmicshop MP Deep Blue Delay clon Lone Wolf Harp Break Marine Band in A ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Last Edited by rogonzab on Mar 14, 2016 11:09 AM
Thanks for these. The last one is nearest to the kind of thing I'm after, and it's the harp break. I can't tell from the vid whether the break-up is from your HB or the amp, so that would be interested to know.
Very tasteful playing BTW, and especially towards the end with those tongue switches (if I've identified them correctly). I like that playing round the edge of distortion, lots of interesting sounds in there.
I think the 2nd one, mic 100 to PC is promising too, as I know from my trials that it's hard to get a nice organic sound that way, and there's some edge to that sound.
Neither (or maybe both), I always set the amp (or pedal) clean, I make the distortion whit TB and "sloppy" playing. Whit a good tube amp (like the cub 10) I like it not that clean, but still clean. At 0:59 you can hear two notes clean, and then the normal tongue overdrive.
Yes, I like the Mic 100 to the pc, is a really simple setup, no usb intrface or asio or anything!
---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
I know what you mean, but technically I can hear amp distortion going on in your samples.
So yes you can play single notes and they sound quite clean, but when you play two notes together that's when you get the effect. It's intermodulation distortion and it's a non-linear effect that can't be produced acoustically (which is linear superposition).
The TBing thing definitely feeds the right stuff into the amp to make this happen. In addition the TB and your (and their) general attack gives transients and partials that do sound like other kinds of grit (click and whirrs starting up the notes) that is nice too, but they don't rely on the amp.
Of course, apologies if you knew all this already. But no apologies for getting a bit forensic with it all! I've spent a lot of time trying to unpick the sound, listening to my own and others samples. I may be wrong of course but someone will have to say it :)
Anyway, thank you again for the samples they are really helpful. I'm minding to try the mic 100 now.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 14, 2016 2:44 PM
Dont worry, if I can help you in any way I am going to do it.
Yes, there are amp distortion, but, as you say, is more from the sound that gets into the mic, than the amp volume/gain. If a play the same in a amp whit more (not to much) gain, that would be a heavy metal tipe of distortion.
I think we are on the same wavelength. It's something around having a small amount of distortion that works with the acoustic technique.
And then there's the heavy metal distortion, as you say, which appears to be no use with harmonicas.
That mic 100 into your PC sounds really promising. They are pretty cheap here in the UK so seems a good idea to try, even out of curiosity.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 15, 2016 1:27 AM
