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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Looking 4 a vintage sounding mic
Looking 4 a vintage sounding mic
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shimkwan
2 posts
Feb 02, 2016
12:04 PM
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Hi,
Been playing blues harps for a number of years now, and recently been thinking of getting a proper mic (for fooling around at home).
After some (very quick) research, the following mic stood out (features, cost, sound): 520dx-green-bullet-harmonica-microphone
What I am after is that vintage sounding mic, a mic that I can play the harp thru as well as sing thru.
I have come across a few online videos that appear to have that old vintage sound - for example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9VYjtwx5cI
I don't know if that is achievable with just a mic, or will I require some more fancy equipment.
I do have a Fender Mustang III amp for my guitar, which I believe I can use directly with the 520dx-green-bullet-harmonica-microphone.
Appreciate any and all advise - and look forward to hearing from anyone that can help me out.
Kind regards,
Shim.
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Ian
265 posts
Feb 02, 2016
12:14 PM
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Hi Shim,
I used to have a contemporary green bullet and I wasn't a fan. Its pretty big and the sound is too clean for my taste.
I went without a bullet mic for a while and used a akai ADM 8 vintage tape recorder mic. Which was very good.
If you want an off the shelf, modern yet vintage bullet then I can personally recommend the Superlux D112C.
Its half the price of the bullet, has better bass and midrange and when you cup it well it gets pretty dirty!
Its also smaller than the bullet so it's easy to hold.
Of course you will get plenty saying "just get a vintage jt30, don't waste your money on anything less" or something, and of course that's valid, I just can't justify the spend.... Im not good enough!!! The Superlux does just fine for my sound.
If you sit back from it then you can also sing through it well enough.... Not like a shure sm57 or sm58, but I don't think that's what you want anyway....
To add to that I also have a mustang and the Superlux sounds great with the bassman cabinet mod and a touch of delay/reverb.
Last Edited by Ian on Feb 02, 2016 12:17 PM
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ME.HarpDoc
111 posts
Feb 02, 2016
2:10 PM
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I've not played the Supberlux D112C that Ian mentions but it gets good reviews. I agree that the current Green Bullet 520DX is bulky and, unless you've got big hands, a little tough to hold. I have a friend who uses one and it doesn't sound very good singing through it. To even get good vintage sound out of a GB, you'd have to buy an expensive vintage one.
I bought a JT30 on may for $80 then had to replace the element with a vintage Shure CM to get the sound. Total cost = $130.
If you want good sound singing, perhaps contact Greg Heumann at Blowsmeaway.com. He can lead you in the right direction. His site has a free download all about amps and mics. It's worth looking at.
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ME.HarpDoc
112 posts
Feb 02, 2016
2:12 PM
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It's the mic-amp combo that gives the sound. If you want to sing, you may want a Shure SM57 or a vintage SM545 both of which can give good overdriven sound when cupped.
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Killa_Hertz
409 posts
Feb 02, 2016
2:43 PM
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+1 on what harp doc said. For both you can't beat the sm57. Or 545 aka the butterfield.
I'm on a bit of a mic trip myself. I bought a bunch of the cheap old tape recorder mics. I got aiwa dm10, akai adm 13 ,akai adm 14, and an Astatic 335H-7. They re all hot mics. The ADM 14 isn't so great. I got one really good ADM 13 And DM 10 that are really hot. The astatic isn't here yet so idk about that one. I just wanted to try em all. I'll prolly sell all but one. I got a few in the batch that didn't work, but i guess that's the risk you take. They re cheap enough.
I don't really like bullets. They are big and heavy n weird to hold. I would suggest you atleast try one before sinking big money into one.
Harp Attack + Delay + Akai ADM 13 = Blues in Any Amp. It even sounds great in my lil farmers market Half broken danelectro dirty thirty.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 02, 2016 2:46 PM
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MindTheGap
1095 posts
Feb 03, 2016
7:06 AM
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I'll suggest two options at opposite ends of the price range, in addition to these good ideas above...
1. If you don't want to spend much money, the PylePro PDMIC78 behaves very much like an SM57 in terms of cupping but isn't built to the same quality IMO. You will ALSO need and XLR mic cable and a thing called an Impdendance Matching Transformer (IMT) to use it with your guitar amp. It's quite amazing value IMO.
2. If you want to spend money, and go straight for the jugular, then consider Greg Heumann's Bulletini mic. A small diameter bullet mic with all kinds of good features. No messing about with vintage this and custom that. It won't break your foot if you drop it :)
Either way, I endorse having a read of Greg's info on mics and amps to avoid disappointment.
And all recommendations have to come with the standard health warning that much of the 'vintage sound' (whatever that is exactly, there seem to be many sounds) is a result of technique as well as equipment, but you may know that already.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 03, 2016 7:12 AM
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Killa_Hertz
420 posts
Feb 03, 2016
4:07 PM
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I second the pyle. I have one. It's great. I like the aiwa dm 10 better. And the akai adm 13. They are HOT. And cost about 1/10 of a bulletini. But if you got the money go for it. I would love to have an ultimate 545 or 57. I sweat them mics.
But my point was, buy a few differnt style cheap mics. Then you ll know what u want.
I have a few mics i want to get rid of. I bought doubles and even triples of some models. All the ones for sale 100% work and sound great. Lmk if anyone is interested.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 03, 2016 4:10 PM
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MindTheGap
1100 posts
Feb 04, 2016
1:59 AM
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This being the beginner's forum, it's not the place to make strong statements about which things are best - we are all learning and the common experience is to be dead certain you've found something, then revise that opinion later on!
But it is interesting to share our experiences so far. So mine is...
I was warned off the modern Green Bullet and the Blues Blaster - and it's worth reading up about them.
If anything can be considered a default, easy option it's the SM57. Even more so if you want to sing through it too.
I also tried various tape-recorder mics, and other assorted vocal mics I came across. The Akai DM range is favoured, in particular the DM-13 both for its sound and size. Some of the other models sound good but are small and awkard to hold/cup correctly.
I tried the Superlux and it is fine, at least it is designed for harp so has good practical features. It definitely could be said to contribute to a 'vintage' sound, specifically in that it colours the sound and responds to cupping.
But when it came to it, I wanted to find out what a proper, good quality, harp-specific mic behaved like, so I bought the Bulletini. It was a no-lose bet: either it was much better than other mics I'd tried (=win, I'd made the correct choice) or it was no better (=win, I'd found that out and didn't have to go searching for a 'magic' in another mic). I won.
My personal truth at the moment is that the microphone is the most important bit of kit in the chain in terms of creating and shaping a pleasing amped-harp sound. More important than amps and pedals.
For completeness I'll add that if you ever want to play away from your home, then there are all kinds of practical considerations too e.g. weight, comfort, volume control, cables, maintainability etc.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 04, 2016 2:33 AM
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Ian
267 posts
Feb 04, 2016
2:32 AM
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I'd give a 2nd... Or is it a 3rd for the Pyle pro sm57 rip off. It's a good mic, I bought one before Christmas as it was sooooo cheap (under £10). Its pretty incredible for the price.
I'm not a massive fan though of weighty stick mics due to the practicality of holding one for a long time. Thats why I prefer bullets or smaller mics.
Again. Its all personal.
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SuperBee
3352 posts
Feb 04, 2016
3:49 AM
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i think its great how the 2 vintage type 50s design mics still being marketed for harp are so unsatisfactory...and so much less suitable than the actual vintage units they have superceded.
i was lucky to avoid the 520DX green bullet...they were really expensive too...i bought an SM58 which was not cheap, and not all that suitable as a harp mic, for me at the time...but at least its a good vocal mic...a great vocal mic, and it is actually a good harp mic too, for PA or , with an inline impedance matching transformer, into an amp...
but i didnt know about IMTs and it was very disappointing into my amp...and somehow i discovered Blowsmeaway website and read Greg's info...and bought a vintage ElectroVoice 605 with a shure CM99B86 element from the early 70s and the difference was amazing...
that mic had a huge bottom end response, was a very hot a dirty sound...perfect for the band i was in...
but then i bought a couple of less exciting JT30 type mics, one with a weak crystal...and it wasnt so great until Jon Atkinson sold me a couple of old shure bullets. these things are beat, they are not glossy custom mics or collectible display quality shells, but the both have great elements. one is a brown bullet shell, which is a little smaller than the green bullet, great to hold and a real strong sounding element. the other element has a great range, it is a little cleaner and really good to sing through...
i had a sm57 for a while...i just couldnt really get into it...handling noise was a pest, but im sure i would have worked that out...anyway, after carrying it for a couple of years i swapped it with Indigo for his reverb pedal. i think we were both satisfied with the deal. i didnt use the reverb for a long time but getting into more now....
yeah so mics...i love the vintage stuff, and i love to play through an amp too and tube amps and old bits of kit are part of the fun for me...a small part but still a part. but maybe i'll get another sm57 or the pyle mentioned above. there is no doubt the 57 is a great design
that aside...if you want a true vintage mic, the 'small' brown bullet shell (but not brown..its a beautiful blue sparkle powder coat) with a 1957 element..i know where there is one right now for $250 from a vendor i respect and trust...Jon A would buy from this guy...
Small shell bullet
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 04, 2016 3:54 AM
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Killa_Hertz
427 posts
Feb 04, 2016
5:32 AM
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This being the beginner's forum, it's not the place to make strong statements about which things are best - we are all learning and the common experience is to be dead certain you've found something, then revise that opinion later on!
Who was that comment for? Just asking.
Ian
You say the sticks ate weighty. That's funny because i find the bullets too heavy. Guess is all subjective.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1101 posts
Feb 04, 2016
6:28 AM
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kHz - it was for me. I've a fair bit I'd like to share about mics (and pedals and amps also), which I think could be useful for other people starting out. But it's from quite limited experience, so I want to make that clear. I expect my opinions will change with more experience.
For instance, I've not gone down the more-or-less standard route of getting a bullet shell, and fitting one or more vintage elements in, and comparing those. That's clearly a thing to do.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 04, 2016 6:35 AM
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Halffast
19 posts
Feb 04, 2016
9:13 AM
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I wanted to try playing amped recently . Bought a pair of NOS Akai DM 13s online ,or so I thought . When they arrived they turned out to be DM 14s . Sound pretty clean with not much of the " grit " I was hoping for . They are actually very light and easy for me to hold ; I put the little plastic clip-on stand on , rotate it to the top and hold that between the pinky and ring fingers . It gives a nice stable grip and keeps the mic a consistent distance from the harp . Wouldn't say it is terrible but it isn't the classic sound we look for . Is the DM 13 that much better ? It is a bit larger I think .
Small hands keep me from getting comfortable with bullet mics .
I saw some videos of mics made from the ear piece of old dial telephone handsets . They sounded pretty cool . Just happened to have an old phone in the attic so I made one ( pretty simple and easy ) and tried it out yesterday . I'm a little disappointed as it didn't sound as gritty as the ones in the videos , but it was a bit raspier than the DM 14 . Maybe it wasn't an old enough unit ( it was a late 70's model ) .
I'm running these through a bypass pedal( so I can play clean when desired ), reverb pedal , delay pedal , and 4-channel mixer ( has total and individual volume controls and I can add a vocal mic , stomp box drum , etc. ) out to an old Fender Frontman 15G amp . Yes , I realize it isn't a tube amp . Actually doesn't sound too bad but I'm still looking for that " bluesy " kick .
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MindTheGap
1102 posts
Feb 04, 2016
10:02 AM
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Halffast - Yes, when I got my DM-13 it came with another DM-X, I can't remember which. But it had a much weaker output signal than the DM-13. KHz says his DM-14 isn't as good (above). Does anyone have a photo of the DM-14?
Re home-made mics, I'll bring up the subject of Hi and Lo impedance. Now this is something I DO know quite a bit about and I'm more happy to hold forth :). Cut a long story short, the mic you made may be perfectly good but the signal strength may be too low to make the amp distort = grit. The shorthand is that a guitar amp expects a 'high-impedance' mic, whereas something like your mixer may have some 'low-impedance' inputs. But this is shorthand and there's a fair bit more techie detail. Just my cup of tea.
Anyway, you mention a Fender Frontman 15G? I remember reading on Rick Davies' blog where he noted a pro using one to good effect. If you are interested, they use LEDs to do the distortion which is the same as used by the Lone Wolf Harp Break, and many attempts at boutique tube-esque fuzz boxes - although I'm not claiming they are the same circuit of course.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 04, 2016 10:40 AM
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Ian
270 posts
Feb 04, 2016
12:24 PM
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Halfast, look for an ADM 8. They sound really dirty and are pretty small, you might like it. They are really cheap.
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Killa_Hertz
429 posts
Feb 04, 2016
7:55 PM
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The adm 14 is much smaller than the adm13.
The ADM 14 is about the size of a crayola magic marker. A lil bigger but not much.
The adm13 is bigger than an sm57.
The 14 doesnt sound horrible. It's got a dirty sound to it. But the volume output is about half that of the 13.
The aiwa dm10 is nice also. It has an on off switch. And it has a little more highs. So it's dirty but has a little clean high sound on top. Which i think is nice.
I could send a picture comparing the two to give you an idea. They should fit nicely in anyones hands. I have bigger hands and i still don't like bullets.
Like i said i have extras of the dm10 and dm13. I don't need em all. And atleast you know mine work and are the right mics. Lol. Sorry that sucks.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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shimkwan
3 posts
Feb 05, 2016
7:57 PM
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Wow, thank you for all those replies!
That is a lot of info to process.
I have had a look at all the mics you mentioned, and for some reason I am drawn towards the bullet shaped ones.
The Bulletini sounds awesome in the youtube videos I have watched, just carries a bit of a price tag.
The Shure 520DX green bullet also sounds great in the videos - however a few of you above warned me against this one...price is OK - so whats the issue with it...is it the size? what else?
The Superlux D112/C has a great price, however, there are only a few videos online, and the sound doesn't appear to be 'dirty' enough - so would putting it thru the Harp Attack and Delay make it 'dirty'? Is that the solution - or have I just watched the wrong videos?
JT30 is no longer being made, the refurbished ones are pricey...I did find this guy online selling new JTs.
Surely the crystals in these will be nearing their end-of-life?
www.ebay.com.au/itm/Astatic-JT-30-Harmonica-Microphone-NOS-Brand-New-FREE-SHIPPING-48-STATES-/361439440063?hash=item5427782cbf:g:VHAAAOSwnipWW12q
The Blues Blaster looks good but doesnt seem to get great reviews, and I havent seen anyone mention the Alctron ZD-2 mic?
One last question - what about the Shaker Madcat? sounds pretty good too.
Thank you all again for your input!
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Killa_Hertz
446 posts
Feb 05, 2016
9:41 PM
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The problem with the green bullet is that new versions are nothing like the origional. The element is different. Basically when it comes to bullets you see the shell is normally just that a shell. The elements inside are usually all custom. So if your set on a bullets, dont worry about what kind. Just buy a cheap one in good shape. Then buy an element.
I know why you want one. Because they are cool lookin. They Have a real nostalgic feel. I bought one myself. But i rarely use it because they are big and bulky and good ones are expensive. That's another reason i recommend a cheap one. To see if you even like it Before you dump a ton of money into a paperweight. But on the other hand if you liked it you can always upgrade the element.
My 2 cents
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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shimkwan
4 posts
Feb 05, 2016
10:14 PM
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Hey KH, sitting here with a smile on my face...your 2 cents is right on the money...they ARE cool ;)
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MindTheGap
1105 posts
Feb 05, 2016
11:13 PM
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If you want a bullet for coolness reasons, at least that narrows down the field.
What kHz said about the modern Green Bullet is what I've read elsewhere, many times. They are quite expensive too. I think his advice to get a shell, and an element is a standard route and likely to be a good one.
In my experience those YT vids comparing mics don't count for much, because a dominant factor is the player and their technique. A particular mic in one person's hands may sound different to another's, quite literally!
Personally I think hands vs mic size is a factor to consider. I have medium-sized hands and slim fingers. I can cup my Superlux and get it to do 'the thing' but it's a lot easier with a stick mic or the bulletini. I guess if I had big hands and sausage fingers it would be easier. However I can't swap out my hands so I'll never know. But just focussing on outcomes, that's why I'm going to use an SM57 or Bulletini.
Re your question about Harp Attack etc. These pedals are not the root source of 'that sound'. Yes they provide distortion but people use that term loosely in a non-technical sense to cover all kinds of things. The primary 'distortion' is provided by cupping the mic although it's not what people normally mean by the word. I won't go into technical detail, aside from saying that your Mustang amp should be able to provide the amp-ish part of the 'distortion'. Just trying to save you some money!
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BTW, anyone do feel free to challenge what I've written. But be aware that I've taken the trouble to examine the signals coming from different parts of the chain, so this isn't pure speculation. If you want to try it, there's a simple studio technique called 're-amping', where you record the raw instrument signal and then play that recorded signal through effects/amp at a later date. It's a great way to more objectively compare your effects/amps as it takes you out of the loop. It's entertaining to listen to the raw signal from the cupped-mic, then hear it turn into 'that sound' when it goes through the amp.
If you have a loop pedal, this is really easy. But watch out - a cupped mic can produce a big signal and you have make sure you are recording a clean signal and not adding distortion by overdriving the first input.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 06, 2016 4:09 AM
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SuperBee
3364 posts
Feb 06, 2016
4:42 AM
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I'd still buy that small shell shure bullet J D Hoskins has for sale that I linked to. $250 is not a bad price for that. Great shell. The best bullet shell there is if you ask me. With a good element, all set to go.
I paid more than that for my EV shell/CM element rig, 7 years ago.
But maybe too soon. I don't see too many of the small shells though. I'd buy it myself but it's more like $380 of my dollars by the time I get it here.
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MindTheGap
1112 posts
Feb 06, 2016
6:21 AM
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That does look good. What we don't know yet is how big shimkwan's hands are!
One thing about the Bulletini is that it is so small that you can't fit one of the industry-standard-vintage CR/CM elements into it - so there's no experimenting after the event.
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Killa_Hertz
452 posts
Feb 06, 2016
7:35 AM
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The reason im trying to stear you away from expensive mics is that you don't really know what u want yet. And as MTG said the player really makes the sound. So you could buy the best mic in the world and you still wouldnt sound like you want to. It takes practice. Playing amped is a skill in itself.
That mustang amp could put out some good sound. Check the fuse software online. People make settings for download. The Bassman setting With the gain up, rolled off highs,and a little reverb is a good start.
Buy a stick mic. A pyle 57 knock off or an Aiawa DM-10, etc. And a cheap bullet on ebay. Practice with them and see how you like em. If you hate the bullet style and have bought a $300 custom. You now have a really cool paper weight.
You wouldn't buy a joe spiers harmonica just to learn on.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1113 posts
Feb 06, 2016
8:12 AM
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I think that's a very good point: The Paperweight Syndrome. But then there is an alternative approach which is to go straight to the 'best' thing, as it is nice to be learning on good equipment. There's a specific point that there's no doubt - if it does sound right it's going to be you not the kit. That's worth something.
Personally I didn't know if I wanted to go bullet, which is why I bought the Superlux. To dip my toe in the water. It was a useful exercise, and informed my decision.
That said, the I agree with the PylePro advice. It gives a really strong sound and is absurdly good value. It'll definitely tell you if you like the physicality of a stick mic too.
Don't forget the impedance matching transformer/cable to avoid disappointment (see Superbee's experience above).
Re coolness (definitely a factor) I was surprised about how many harp legends play/played stick mics. I had assumed it was all bullets as per the stereotype.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 06, 2016 8:17 AM
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Killa_Hertz
455 posts
Feb 06, 2016
8:33 AM
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Yes the XFMR. Good point. That's another reason to just get a tape recorder mic. They are just plug n play. Im extremely happy with the ones i have. And you don't have to worry about breaking them or anything. They re super cheap. I'm making an amp for travel. Built in effects, etc. And one of those mics will travel With me.
I'm going to try to customize one. Make my own Aiwa DM-10 Ultimate. A BlowsMeAway Rip Off, if you will.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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shimkwan
5 posts
Feb 06, 2016
11:59 AM
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Once again great advice, thank you.
Did anyone manage to take a look at the jt30 on eBay?
www.ebay.com.au/itm/Astatic-JT-30-Harmonica-Microphone-NOS-Brand-New-FREE-SHIPPING-48-STATES-/361439440063
Any comments?
Ps. I am 5'10" with normal sized hands for that height.
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SuperBee
3365 posts
Feb 06, 2016
12:41 PM
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Re the eBay mic...
I'm not sure. There are a couple of warning bells for me which would lead me to do more research first
The big one is the spiel about no returns. Can't sanitise effectively? What? I can think of good reasons to not accept returns but this is not swimwear.
The other thing is the line about the 'rugged' crystal element.
Crystal elements could be described with various adjectives but 'rugged' is not one I'd choose.
The 'astatic' brand name is encouraging but I'm not sure. I'd want some more background.
If this mic has an MC 151 element, it's possibly a great value. But I haven't heard of an astatic jt30 'harmonica mic' with factory fitted volume control. I expect this predates the hohner bluesblaster and the 'roadhouse' mic, both of which used the same shell but inferior crystals. I'll look it up.
That Pyle mic sounds unbeatable btw. Even if you hate it for harp playing, it's still a handy mic. I had an SM57 for a few years. Never used it for a paper weight...not cool-looking enough maybe...just kept it in my lead bag and lugged it to practices and gigs. Used it a few times to lend to singers, and experiments to see if I could get the sounds I wanted with it. Basically just hated using it as a harp mic.
If you buy a good mic though...it's pretty easy to sell. If you buy new, you'll lose a bit if you sell. If you buy a great vintage mic, it will hold its value and may even appreciate. But be wary of crystals because they can just quit and then you will have lost.
I just paid AUD $160 for an MC151, NOS. I'll probably not see that money back on resale, but maybe...crystals need care. But there is also the rarity factor.
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Killa_Hertz
462 posts
Feb 06, 2016
1:25 PM
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I don't have any crystal mics. Not really on purpose, but they are 1. More expensive. 2. Fragile. And im tough on stuff. I like the bulletproof mics. No pun intended. My astatic 335H-7 came in today. Its not a bullet mic. Its much smaller than i thought. Nice size. Tiny. Ill let you know how it sounds when i get a chance to play it
I looked at the ebay. I think it's a reproduction of some kind. It says molded like the origional right on there. Meaning this is not an origional.
I'm telling you, you'll be disapointed With a high dollar mic. It's not going to be a miracle in a shell like u think. I know Cus i thought the same thing. I thought if i bought a nice tube amp and good mic it would make me sound like Jesus Playin The Harp. The clouds would part and people would bow to my phat rippin harp sound. And what i got was WOMP WOMP. Cus i didn't have the skills.
I'm just trying to save you heart ache. Lol.
Check you tube fur Rob Sunshine. He demos all types of mics. Cheap to holy grail. You can hear the difference for yourself.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 06, 2016 1:27 PM
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SuperBee
3366 posts
Feb 06, 2016
1:40 PM
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Oh, the hand size question.
I have EV605 shell, green bullet (shure 520), brown bullet (i dont know the proper name...i call them brownies or Shure small shell bullets), jt30. Ive looked into other types but stopped buying when i got the brown bullet, because for me thats the unit. I do use the green bullet too, and the jt mics, just not the EV. But i used to use that one as my gig mic when it was not classy blues music...i just had a mental breakthrough moment...unrelated, never mind...
So..what i can say about mics and hand size...
Im an average height, average anything specimen. The shure green shellis about 5mm diameter larger than a brown bullet. I can easily get a good hold on the brownie, need to make more of an effort with the gb. But its mainly an issue of observation and practice to get used to the position.
The jt30 shell is smaller than gb, more like the brown, but it has a couple of bumps and a ridge. For me, the brown is easier and more comfortable but jt30 is quite manageable
The ev605 is the smallest of the shells i have, but i find it a bit harder to hold forva long period. Something about the shape i think. Theres a slight taper on it.
I also have an ev630. Its sometimes called 'the potato'. It has a heavy switch and mounting bracket on it and i am too cheap to get a lead or adaptor for it, but i would likd to use it as a vocal mic.
Jon Atkinson used to post here a couple years back, before he moved to California. I bought a few items from him and some stuff disappeared. He sent me the 630 and a shure 585 in compensation plus the brown bullet he'd been using to record with. That brownie is a great old thing. Jon said he'd likd md to offer it to him first if i ever want to sell it...but its maybe just to make me feel good about it. Hes a interesting guy.
Other shells...turner commander (one of the buck rogers mics) are quite small, but ghd fin doesnt suit everyone. Often see it shaved down. The other popular turner...254 model..from memory!...is fairly moderate sized and very popular. Astatic 200 is bigger than shure 520. I have never held one.
The aststic 'biscuit' mics are legendary and some say the best of all shells. If i ever buy another mic, this is the most likely. Saw one recently but will not deal with the vendor in question.
Denis Gruenling always has beautiful vintage stuff (original condition, not "custom" except insofar as he does replace broken elements) for sale, but charges top dollar for it. Custom mics are not worth as much but as working mics big deal.
Johnny ace does good work if you are into custom bulets, not really my cup of tea but some like that and fair enough.
Greg heumann of course is the go to guy if you are really serious about a modern mic for harp. His cut down sticks with volume control are the choice of many pro players, and his wooden bullets are great too, according to all reports. Hd also sells elements which he has personally graded. Again, you pay for this stuff.
Not all elements are created equal, and that can be part of the fun...
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SuperBee
3367 posts
Feb 06, 2016
1:49 PM
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I was talking to Ron a couple weeks ago on skype. He still has all those old videos but doesnt sell much stuff these days. I bought my 605 from him years ago.
That mic actually did change my life. Suddenly i had thd sound which had been eluding me. Id been playing quite a while already.
And like many things...if you buy new, dont like it, resell...youll lose $
If you buy used and sought after, at the right price, youl do ok. Thats why id buy an actual silverface princeton rather than a new reissue. Already tge reissue is selling seconhand for about half the new price. But my '78 is still fetching what i paid for it, maybe s touch more.
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SuperBee
3368 posts
Feb 06, 2016
2:01 PM
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But...importantly, do research on this stuff if youre intested. Go to greenbulletmics.com and read what dave k has to say, go to badass and look at dennis videos, and watch rons videos on youtube. He is goldenbug i think. And ask greg heumann at blowsmeaway for his advice. You can just email him or if you join up david barretts bluesharmonica.com you can ask greg for advice there.
Of course, he also posts on the main forum here
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shimkwan
6 posts
Feb 06, 2016
11:16 PM
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Hi,
You all got me thinking...how easy/difficult would it be to move the 545SD or SM57 element into a Bullet casing? Or shall I rather start a new thread for this topic?
Which one would be better for that "vintage" tone? 545 or 57?
Cheers
Last Edited by shimkwan on Feb 06, 2016 11:23 PM
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MindTheGap
1116 posts
Feb 07, 2016
12:56 AM
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No doubt someone's done it, if it's doable. I'd ask Greg, he makes the rubbery gaskets which make the fit between element and shell casing.
I think I read that the modern 545 and 57 elements are the same now? Perhaps just similar. Do have a read of Greg's excellent essay on harp mics. There is something about vintage vs modern 545s in there.
The advantages of a 545 are that (if you get the right variant) it is switchable to Hi-impedance i.e. suitable for going straight into your guitar amp. It has a little audio transformer in the body. With a 57 you have to use an external unit.
Also, as kHz already mentioned, Paul Butterfield famously used one. Albeit the variant that has a sort of pistol-grip attached. But if coolness is a factor - and why not - difficult to get much cooler than Paul Butterfield.
Here's one on Ron Sunshine's site https://youtu.be/jJDCIg2DfBs
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 12:57 AM
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SuperBee
3374 posts
Feb 07, 2016
1:03 AM
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My friend has a BMA custom 545. I think he is under the impression it's a bit grittier than a 57. 57 and 58 I think are exactly the same apart from the grill.
I dunno about putting one in a bullet shell. But Greg has his own trademark 'heumann element' which I think is fairly small so no doubt it's all doable.
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MindTheGap
1117 posts
Feb 07, 2016
1:11 AM
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I did try a modern 545, and thought it wasn't wildly different, in my hands anyway, from a 57. It was going to be my first choice (for the reasons above), until the Bulletini appeared on the market. I would have needed it in Greg's 'Ultimate' configuration, as I wanted the volume control.
In the UK, the 545 is quite a bit more expensive than the 57.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 1:48 AM
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SuperBee
3375 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:19 AM
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Yes, my friend's is an Ultimate, with Bulletiser. I've not used it yet.
Shall do one day no doubt...
Just home from jamming today. Used my crystal mic with the new a amp and LW Reverb pedal too. Actually quite impressed.
Anyone here done much playing with a crystal mic? I've only become curious about them relatively recently, mainly through 1847's insistence they are superior...I think I'm beginning to understand...
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MindTheGap
1118 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:37 AM
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Oh yes, and then there's the Bulletizer to consider. I'd forgotten about that.
By crystal, I guess you are meaning the proper crystal element in a bullet shell. The only thing I've tried is an Astatic small mic, like the one kHz mentions, which I'm told has a ceramic element. That's piezo too so superficially the same, but different in this context I expect. It will be super-hi-Z though, so some things will apply, like loss of signal and/or low frequencies if the amp input impedance isn't high enough.
Out of interest, what is the input impedance on your new amp?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 2:38 AM
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SuperBee
3376 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:49 AM
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1 meg, but I wonder about the reverb pedal...does that impact the input impedance?
Yes, I 'shelled' out the big bucks for a NOS mc151, and installed it in a JT 30 shell.
It has a volume pot of which I've forgotten the impedance. At least 1 meg.
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MindTheGap
1119 posts
Feb 07, 2016
3:00 AM
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Yes, it's whatever the mic sees first. Those LW pedals boast a hi-impedance input with harp mic elements in mind, so it may even be higher than that that, they don't say.
The proof of this pudding is definitely in the eating. If you are getting a good signal, then it's job done. When matching other audio components the rule of thumb is that the load impedance should be at least 10x that of the source impedance. But the impedance of the crystal element is sort of 'undefined', possibly similar to the load impedance over the audio range , and also highly frequency dependent.
We've had this discussion already (I think we've had all discussions several times over, I don't care :) !) but my guess is that is why one person declares a crystal mic to be awesome, another that it sucks (no in-between in harp-land) is down to the effect of input impedance. I have absolutely no evidence for this assertion.
...It could even be that using the 'wrong' load for the crystal mic gives a more subjectively pleasing result for harp. We are through the looking glass here, people. As with cupping. No one designed those mic elements to be cupped.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 3:13 AM
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SuperBee
3378 posts
Feb 07, 2016
4:00 AM
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yes and its quite subjective when you're performing.
ive tried this mic before and i wasn't especially impressed. but today i noticed a quality about it i hadnt noticed before. i was playing quite well today...mostly played somewhat less than i often do. i think that helps...maybe listening to the amp more intently helped me manage the trick of distracted focus...playing in a very focussed way but focussing on the sound rather than the note choice..the physical problem incidental, focussing on the result...
and we played 'scratch my back' which was pleasing to have a new song...they want to do 'walking to my baby' as well, which i didnt really know but its a rhumba so i just riffed of the rhythm and it was quite ok
oh...the mic...yes there is a certain quality about a crystal which i am not sure how to describe...its like an even-ness of volume swell...a particular grainy sound..it seems to continue to put out where the dynamic has a more easily-reached end point...i'm not sure thats true...i do think its different though.
i'm reminded of the story someone recently told about Max Geldray playing under the influence of pot and being quite disappointed when he heard the recording...nothing like that involved here but ive certainly had moments i thought i was killing it, only to discover the recording tells a different tale...today could have been one of those, but i'll take Rontana's observation about playing for personal enjoyment and run with that for now
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MindTheGap
1121 posts
Feb 07, 2016
4:18 AM
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:) The phrase was 'blowing the back off it.' Were you doing that?
People talk about crystal mics with special fondness re tone (whatever that is) so I assume there must be something in it. What if it were the particular combination of your new amp and that mic?
Re your point about focus - that is definitely one reason I like playing amped, there's a great big sound coming from a speaker over there and I like that. It's not only the amped sound, it's like a bit of a disconnect which makes it less personal. Ditto with electric guitar, bass.
I reckon if I sang too, then it would be the opposite. I'd want the harp to be 'me' too.
It must indicate an basic insecurity and lack of self-worth. Off to the therapist.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 4:24 AM
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Killa_Hertz
471 posts
Feb 07, 2016
7:32 AM
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Bee I think your thing about killing it and the recording sucking. I think that ties right in with my post on the other thread about tongue switching. Sometimes i nail it and others not so much. Maybe it's always not so much and i just am hearing it different. Lol. It's something i had considered to be the case.
I thought crystals were the shizz. It makes me feel better that not everyone is thrilled with them. I don't have any yet, but i guess i won't go out of my way to if they aren't all they're cracked up to be. I know they are more fragile which is bad for me. I'm tough on things.
Can yall explain the impedance matching thing more thoroughly. Whatever the mic sees first? So if the amp is Lower Z but the pedal is high z its cool? I didn't really know much about this. Where can i find more on the subject? Maybe save yall from having to explain it. ( again most likely)
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 07, 2016 7:34 AM
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MindTheGap
1123 posts
Feb 07, 2016
8:22 AM
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kHz - Re impedance, what you said, that's it in a nutshell.
If you read the Lone Wolf pedal blurb, one of the features they list is 'High Impedance Buffered Input'.
This is shorthand for a standard technique in audio electronics generally, and amplifying mics in particular. It's called Impedance Bridging. It's totally electronics 101, so nothing fancy. Heres a wiki article...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_bridging
The circuits in those pedals 'buffer' (aka 'isolate') the mic from whatever circuity is downstream - amps, other pedals etc. Because the pedal is a powered circuit, its own output will be much lower impedance so you can plug it into pretty much anything, in practice, and the signal won't be degraded.
Watch out, because some people talk about 'impedance matching' meaning making the source and load impedance the same. Sometimes in electronics you want to do that, but not for microphones. And also people talk about Hi-Z and Lo-Z microphones rather loosely - there's more detail there which I won't start on here, unless anyone asks.
In summary - in the specific case of crystal mics, you really want to plug them into a very impedance input stage, such a provided by any of those LW pedals. Or sometimes, a valve amplifier.
Is that any help? I can drone on and on for hours about this stuff, but can I play a fast boogie? No.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 11:07 AM
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SuperBee
3381 posts
Feb 07, 2016
1:37 PM
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I have had little to do with crystals. I bought this JT 30 years ago from a man in Oregon (I think...it's a while ago now) who sells a few mics and related paraphernalia..it had a Turner crystal and I found I didn't care for it much. In the drawer it went. Later I tried again, decided it was very weak and while I didn't mind the sound, I also didn't find it very inspiring so back it went in the drawer. I checked it out again when enough time had passed to forget my earlier impression, and I thought about the impedance factor, but it was still weak. I decided it genuinely was a weak element and began considering what to do with the shell. It's nothing flash...probably was a Hohner Bluesblaster originally ("jt30 style")it's been powder coated a kind of unspectacular brick-ish red with an almost imperceptible sparkle and a hole drilled behind the keel to fit a volume control. When they fit the Volume control in this spot, because of all the curves the thing always ends up on an angle.
But, for all that it's a functioning shell with a gasket and a hi impedance pot suitable for a crystal, so I decided I would keep a lookout for a suitable element. Not necessarily a crystal...but then a NOS mc151 recently came up for sale and I grabbed it.
It was not cheap...equivalent about $110 USD. I took a lot of care to heatsink the leads when soldering as they are very short and the elements are very susceptible to damage from heat, among other things...
When tested, it was much stronger than the turner it replaced, but I still had doubts about the actual sound. I don't think I considered running it through a pedal though. Was probably using it with a reverb amp and that's enough effect for me...if the amp has reverb I usually have been in the habit of leaving pedals and power supplies and patch leads out of the rig. But yesterday with the little 6L6 amp, I used my LW Reverb and Delay pedals, and my favourite brown bullet. Just for the sake of difference I connected the crystal and was happy to find I liked it with this rig.
Re mics in general...my experience has been that it is a dangerous and distracting game, but perhaps it also helps keep one interested in the game...so if we accept that note choice and presentation, playing the thing, is what it's really all about, and then leave that to one side and just consider the question of microphones...
Microphones are different. I find some are more musical than others. Some are 'darker', 'brighter', some have a more even output across a range of frequencies, some seem to reproduce parts of the range much louder than other parts.
Modern dynamic mics such as the shure SM mics are generally very good at reproducing evenly across a wide range. I've forgotten the actual claim but there is no noticeable weak point in the zone used by a harmonica. For some players this makes them a great choice. For someone like Jason Ricci (is there such a person?) who plays the entire instrument with consummate skill and lightning fast, an sm57 or similar is called for. If you look at his pedal board you'll see there is also an emphasis on levelling out the potential of some notes presenting more strongly than others which is another harmonica problem. His rig is pretty much designed to bring clarity to presentation of all the complexity of what he is doing.
An old fashioned dynamic like the vintage shure elements would not do a good job for someone who plays like this. I have 4 mics with these type of elements, and they all have their own characteristics in terms of the ranges they emphasise and the clarity of reproduction. For Jason I think such a mic would undermine what he is doing.
For me though, these mics are fine and emphasise certain sounds and textures that I think add interest to what I do, which is nowhere near as complex as the speedy players.
Think of singing through these Lo-fi mics...if you had a fine singer, you want to be able to hear the voice, reproduced clearly with all the nuance produced by the singer...if I am the singer though...frankly the voice isn't that great on its own, but if there's some break up from the equipment or some echo, the voice could start to get 'character' which can provide a different type of interest factor...
And so then, investigating the various qualities of a lofi mic can become a study in itself...but just like developing an appreciation of tobacco, it holds some inherent risk...with mics I think the main risks are about becoming obsessed with gear and spending lots of dough, and losing sight of the aforementioned main game; playing the thing.
But as long as you keep some perspective about it, I think it's a worthwhile area to investigate.
I don't see myself getting into comparisons of crystals too far though..I'm not wealthy enough to go far down that path.
And I doubt I'll buy many more vintage shure CM/CR elements either...but maybe 1 or 2 if the price is right and I'm curious enough...I'm definitely not going to play the aesthetic game of collecting shells because they're cool to look at. That's fine and I appreciate those collections but that's not how I collect...that seems a little too much of a different kind of madness to me
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Killa_Hertz
475 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:39 PM
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MTG it kinda makes sence. The pedal processes the sound and has its own output? In that wiki it says bridging is when the lineZ is 10x that of the loadZ. That part i don't really get. The wiki was kinda confusing actually. But why do people use these pedals and a DI box? Is it just for voltage drop at that point?
Edit: Well i suppose"signal loss" not voltage drop. But same thing. I think.
Im am electrician so i understand most of this. It's just not something i deal with day to day, so i was unaware of it. Don't do much with electronics. But i also have ADD/BiPolar like a MuFuga. So ... reading that wiki kinda went WOMP WOMP WOMP charlie brown style after a while. Lol.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 07, 2016 2:45 PM
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MindTheGap
1126 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:56 PM
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kHz - I don't want to appear sycophantic (or patronising either), but I have to say you do seem to have got to the nub of all sorts of things very quickly. I'm impressed.
Re impedance, it's the other way round, the load Z (pedal/amp) needs to be 10x the source Z (mic). E.g. if the mic Z were 5 kOhms, then the amp or pedal input impedance should be > 50 kOhms. Basically, the idea is not to take much current from the mic. It's a rule of thumb thing.
As for DI boxes, that's a different thing. That's about converting the signal from something called 'unbalanced' to 'balanced'. That's a widely used audio technology to radically reduce noise in long cable runs. It's a pretty involved topic, but fortunately all us musicians need to know is that you might use a DI box to connect to e.g. a pro mixer. If you were playing on stage, the sound man might offer you a DI box to plug your Harp Attack into.
If you have an Impedance Matching Transformer (IMT) for your vocal mic you are already involved with some of this :) What the IMT really is doing is converting the 'balanced' output from your mic (the three pin XLR thing?) to 'unbalanced' (the mono 1/4 jack for a guitar amp). It's also changing the signal level to one that suitable for a guitar amp type of input. Technically, it's called a 'balun' (like 'balanced-unbalanced').
Sorry about the Womp Womp Womp effect! Instead, I'd be happy to answer specific questions! Do I need a DI box? No, unless you are bothered by hum on your thirty foot cable and/or are going into a mixer. My mixer has a variety of balanced and unbalanced inputs, so I don't need one either.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 3:19 PM
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MindTheGap
1127 posts
Feb 07, 2016
3:05 PM
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Superbee - thanks for all the detail. That's interesting.
I don't think anyone needs to justify getting into one or other aspect of the thing - that's just the nature of hobbies.
After all the discussions this weekend, I'm feeling warmer towards gear stuff. I accept the argument that it's a good way to keep your hat in the ring. In future, if anyone tells me I'm spending too much time on kit and not enough practising they will get short shrift.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 3:07 PM
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Killa_Hertz
477 posts
Feb 07, 2016
3:29 PM
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Thanks man. I really appreciate it. Seriously. I also appreciate yall helping me with so much stuff. I'm bewildered by how anyone learned any of this before the Internet. My god. Its hard enough this way.
I'm not thinking i need a DI box or anything. I just thought it was redundant. But i guess not. Anyways The whole subject you brought up just kinda sparked my interest. Thanks something else to learn. *SMH* Ill have to read more about it later. Ive got enough goin on. Lol. My head may literally start spinning.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 07, 2016 3:29 PM
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Halffast
21 posts
Feb 10, 2016
8:02 PM
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Just happened upon a harp mic on ebay called a Tsunami ( clone of one called a Strnad ) . The harp is held in some type of clip/clamp setup and it has a volume control built into it . Says it has a finger/palm hole to get " effects " . Has anyone ever used or heard one of these ?
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shimkwan
10 posts
Feb 01, 2017
7:48 PM
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Wow, I cannot believe a year has gone by since I started this thread! I was in shock because I finally got my mic last week - but certainly did not know a year had gone by so quickly.
I eventually settled for the Superlux D112C - and when coupled with my Fender Mustang amp, sounds pretty sweet :)
Thank you all for your invaluable input.
Cheers
PS. no doubt, I will be looking for some more mics in the future ;)
Last Edited by shimkwan on Feb 01, 2017 7:50 PM
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