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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Harp Helps with Theory
Harp Helps with Theory
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MindTheGap
1073 posts
Jan 31, 2016
1:30 AM
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Harp players aren't renowned for their music theory, it seems. But I've found it's definitely given me a new slant on things.
Learning the piano, yes there's theory. But there was a strong emphasis on playing the notes from the page. Learning (rock) guitar, yes there are scales and chords, but also a strong emphasis on learning physical patterns and using the interesting ways they layout on the fretboard. You know, look here's another interesting chord shape. You learn a song with an apparently fancy move, and oh it's actually just playing an Am then a Gm.
(I remember hearing a snippet with Jimmy Page playing a bit of stairway to heaven that is seared into our collective consciousness and he says (something like) twang twang, err that's a.. oh yes... A minor probably...)
Playing a diatonic instrument has got me a lot more in touch with the feel and purpose of different notes in the scale, and improved how I think about intervals.
I think it's probably because of the diatonic element - when changing key means reaching for another harp rather than invoking a different pattern. E.g. when playing 2nd position the tonic note is always in the same place, the octave is always there etc. Seems to reinforce it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 31, 2016 1:38 AM
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SuperBee
3321 posts
Jan 31, 2016
2:17 AM
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i dont play another instrument - really- so i dont have that perspective but i know that when i started playing a country-tuned harp is when i really started to get the idea of how it was laid out. having to think about that new note and its role in various scales seemed to focus me...
well, thats what i tell myself...but at the same time i began to learn about improvising with chord tones and using 'don't get around much anymore' as the study song.
this is a I-VI-ii-V progression, so i practiced the scales for 2nd, 5th, 4th and 3rd position, in order to get around the song, and focussed on the chord tones relevant to the actual chords in the song...so while i say 3rd position, not necessarily dorian...more likely mixolydian...and while 5th is commonly minor, in this song we are using a dominant7 chord...and the country-tuned (aka jazz) harp was great for all that...but maybe it was just coincidental and it was the study which began to teach me
the bridge for that song took me into 1st position and also 6th position...in 6th on a CT harp there is a lovely minor chord 3 4 5 6 7 draw...so what a great study...only 11th and 12th missing and i think maybe i did touch on 12th...
but anyway the point was only partially about positional play, it was just a way to get to know the harp. i made some progress but it was all happening to quickly for me and i couldn't keep up with other commitments...id like to get back to that really...
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Killa_Hertz
396 posts
Jan 31, 2016
9:31 AM
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This all is very foreign to me. I get the general idea, but that's about it. I really need to find a good resource to learn all that stuff.
Amy suggestions?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1078 posts
Jan 31, 2016
11:52 AM
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There are a millions of resources, but I think it's a trick finding the appropriate level and context. 'Music Theory' in general is a big subject, what I'm talking about is a small subset that is useful in this setting.
What SuperBee specifically mentions is that ability to work out what notes on the harp will fit the chords of a song (and not just 12-bar blues). He discusses it - like many people do - in terms of positions. It's very harp-centric and I think fits together nicely.
I don't have these particular books, but just from the contents they looks like it's very much the right kind of thing: David Harp's 'Blues & Rock Harp Positions Made Easy' and Music Theory Made Easy'.
Adam also has some of his free videos I think specifically on 12-bar, and a paid for one in his store 'Harmony for Improvisation'.
I don't have a piano any more, but when I think scales, and building chords I still visualise the keyboard. And I'm not great at visualising in general so it must have made a strong impression. I'm planning to teach one of my sons a bit of basic theory, and I'll get a cheapo keyboard to do that I think. He drums, so doesn't have to worry so much about notes!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 31, 2016 11:56 AM
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SuperBee
3325 posts
Jan 31, 2016
12:58 PM
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Hmm...I think Dave Barrett has some theory lessons. Dave takes it quite slowly...but I guess fundamentals are important.
Jimi Lee just started talking to me about it and I was paying him so I listened up...
The first thing he did was talk about the scale and scale degrees...
So he told me about the major scale for the key of C and I played it on my Low F country tuned harp. Looking back, I see that is why he had me playing country tuned, and low F...so he could start me in on learning some theory with C major...
So...you know, C major...c d e f g a b c. White piano keys. Do re mi fa so la ti do. The sound of music.
So, that scale...is a major scale in the key of C and the intervals run like this...a 'whole step' is two semitones, a 'half step' is 1 semitone. In the major scale the intervals between each note in the scale go : whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step.
If you look at the piano you can see this laid out. The white keys with a black key between them are a whole step apart. The keys with no black key are a half step apart.
Every major scale works like this, regardless of which note it starts on. So A major for instance is A, B, C sharp (C#), D, E, F#, G#, A.
B Flat major is B flat (Bb), C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb
You can name all the notes in the scale with their alphabet names, but you can also talk about them in terms of scale degrees. So in C major for instance, C is the 1st, but it's called the tonic. D is the second, E is the 3rd and so on. B is the 7th, often called the major 7th, and the C after B is the octave.
If you play a harp from 4 blow to 7 blow, each note ascending, you have a major scale in the key that harp is named for.
You can make a bunch of other scales. Perhaps the most common is the 'natural minor'. A natural minor scale sounds different to a major scale because it has a flat (aka 'lowered') 3rd, 6th, and 7th. That is, each of those notes are a half step lower than in the equivalent major scale. So C minor (if it's natural minor it's often just called 'minor') is C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C
You can hear a natural minor scale on your harp if you start with 6 draw and play each note ascending to 10 draw. Or you can start on 3" and let it up to 3 draw straight for the second note, and play ascending to 6 draw.
There are other common scales. Mixolydian is like major but just has a flat 7th. Sometimes this is called dominant 7. This is the 2nd position scale. If you start on 6 blow and play each note ascending to 9 blow you have a Mixolydian scale.
Dorian is closer to natural minor, sometimes it's called Dorian minor. It has a flat 3rd (minor 3rd) and a flat 7th. That's the scale your harp gives in 3rd position if you start on 4 draw and play each note in ascending order up to 8 draw.
These are probably the 4 most common scales used in western music. There are others but that should be enough to get you started on scales and the lingo. So if what I have written is comprehensible, you should know what people are talking about when they say flat 7 or flat 5, minor third...
I didn't mention the pentatonic scales, but they're important too.
The major pentatonic has just 5 different tones: the tonic, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th. And you'd normally include the Octave...which is the same note as the tonic, just an octave higher.
The minor pentatonic has the Tonic, minor 3rd, 4th, 5th, flat 7th (and Octave). The so-called 'blues scale' is minor pentatonic, plus the flat 5th.
So, enough with scales.
Chord theory comes from the scales. Chords are combinations of notes from a scale which sound good when played together. You can play them all at the same time, like strumming a guitar, or pick them out one at a time, which is known as an arpeggio, or an arpeggiated chord. The most common, or most basic chord is a 'major triad', which is a chord made of the tonic, 3rd and 5th of the major scale. When played in a chord, the tonic is called the Root.
So...a major chord is root, 3rd, 5th.
A minor chord, is root, minor 3rd, 5th.
A 7th (aka dominant 7th) chord is root, 3rd, 5th, plus the flat 7th. Very common blues chord, and this is why 2nd position is so popular for blues...because we have a flat 7th in draw 5.
If you see the chords for a particular piece of music, it will give you a clue as to the notes that will sound good over that part of the song. Improvising using chord tones is not the last word in improvising but it's not a bad place to start thinking about how to construct a solo.
Learning the jargon and being able to read the chord name and know what it means takes a little time but Google and the Nashville numbering system can help. Just hitting Wikipedia when you don't understand something can teach a fair bit.
please remember I am at a really basic level and perhaps use expressions or descriptions that would inspire someone who actually knows theory to shake their head...
But in MTGs 'grapevine' song, there are 4 chords, which I saw written as Dm, G, A7, and Bm
So, Dm will have D(root), F (minor 3rd) and A (5th)
G will have Root, 3rd and 5th
A7 will have Root, 3rd, 5th and the flat 7 (A, C#, E and G)
Bm will have B, D, F# (root, minor 3rd, 5th)
So at the point in the song where those chords are playing, the chord tones of those songs will definitely match, and patterns made up from those tones will sound harmonious and interesting.
There is also the concept of difference and contrast and passing tones and using the pentatonics for soloing but that's a primer that can give you something to think about.
I realise it's maybe just all words on s page but just take one concept at a time and dig it and you'll soon see a little bit of the sense to it I hope.
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SuperBee
3326 posts
Jan 31, 2016
1:16 PM
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Oh yeah, what MTG said about me talking positions...is because this is how Jimi Lee taught me to relate to harp positions. Some think of positions as particular scales or modes, but he was just showing me where the notes are really and then you can understand what is available on the diatonic harp where some notes are not available. He taught me from the point of view of starting with 2nd position but that's his thing. On a C harp, 1st position is key of C, starts on 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and gives a nice major scale, anywhere you blow 3 notes together is a major triad. You can play blues notes in the top end.
2nd is key of G, starts in 2 draw/3 blow and 6 blow, gives a handy dominant 7 scale, bluesy all over, but especially in the low end.
3rd is D, starts in 1 draw and 4 draw, useful if you want easy access to minor 3rd and flat 7. But can also play a Mixolydian (aka dominant 7) scale in low end using the 2 draw half step.
4th is A, starts with 3" (which some find tricky) and 6 draw, good for natural minor but if you bend the 4 draw or 1 draw you get the major 3rd so not restricted just to minor.
5th is E, starts on 2 blow, 5 blow. Good minor scale but again the major 3rd is obtainable with bending 3"' and 6'. Etc...
So then applying that takes practice and.. Application. There are other approaches...like just using pentatonics...and that takes practice too of course...
I dipped my toe in..enough to see the possibilities..it's exciting to me...and then there's life...so you know...hobby
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Crawforde
55 posts
Feb 02, 2016
4:40 AM
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This thread should be "stickied" to the top of the page.
Great information
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