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Killa_Hertz
381 posts
Jan 29, 2016
5:34 AM
Same deal as the Main Forum. I meant to put it in here to begin with. Figured it would be more useful to us beginners. And i think we tend to elaborate more. I think it's good to hear in detail what everyone's doin'?

For those of you who missed the Main Forum post. The long n short of it is. .... basically virtual woodshed without the sound files. Tell everyone what your currently working on. To maybe inspire others, get help with what your having an issue with, or just keep everyone posted n spark some good conversation.

Let's see how it goes. Hopefully we can keep it going strong for a while.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Killa_Hertz
382 posts
Jan 29, 2016
5:39 AM
....... TO KICK IT OFF HERE'S MY POST FROM THE MAIN FORUM ........

During the blizzard on Friday I was sitting in my car waiting for my girl to get off work. I was listening to the "Til Then" album by Ronnie Shellist. Idk why but sometimes i get in these modes where i can just play what i hear without much thought. So while listening to Knockin,the first track on the album, the first solo came up and i just started hittin it. Atleast the beginning of it. It was sloppy, but not bad considering.

So that got me kinda stuck ... listening to it piece by piece and rewinding it until i figured out a piece. Then ide move on and figure out another piece and move on. Until i pretty much had the whole thing. Now i don't have it down pat .... not by a long shot, but i figured out the patterns of each part. So for the last few days I've been rewinding and practicing it trying to get it down.


It's pretty cool because you hear the older guys talk about having to do this before youtube n yada yada ... Uphill both ways .... lol ... just kidding ol timers. But it's the first song i actually learned this way and it feels alot better than being taught how to play it by a youtube video.

Also I love Ronnies playing style. As Ive said recently Ive been working on my TB, trying to get more efficient with it. And Ronnies Style kinda ties in with that. Because,for those of you who don't know, he plays pucker on holes 123 and he TB 4-10, but he does all bends Pucker. I have been wanting to learn how he does this. The transitions can be a lil funny. So what better way than to play his songs. While playing Ronnies songs you can see how his playing style effects his note choices. Because of the way your mouth is already positioned, notes that may have been hard to play normally are now right where you want them. And you can switch from TB to pucker or visa versa and make jump around much better than normal. It's pretty cool. I know alot of you know this already, but im just gettin it so ..shut up! ....... 8^)>

Anyways that's where I'm at right now.

The solo I'm taking about is at 1:14 or so. Til Then ... Kockin' ... 1:14 ... Peep It.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 05, 2017 5:39 PM
SuperBee
3312 posts
Jan 29, 2016
5:52 AM
my resolution is to just try learn 1 at a time, learn it properly before moving on
so i have undertaken to learn scratch my back
just started, because been building an amp, which i 'finished' tonight.
had a look at the Will wilde you tube lesson, been playing the Tbirds record a lot, found my slim harpo version backing track (shoblues)
the tbirds do it in E, Slim Harpo is in F. I'll practice with my backing track in F...i have a Bb spiers stage 2 which i'd rather play than any a harp i own...
MindTheGap
1061 posts
Jan 29, 2016
6:11 AM
I noticed this in the main forum, where it's for the grown ups. You know, getting a better recording contract, fitting out the tour bus, giving up the day job... :)

Aah, Back to reality...

I've arranged a version of 'I Heard it on the Grapevine' for the band, based on the Credence Clearwater Revival version which I'd not heard before last week.

The main part of the song - the familiar bit - involves four chords - can you imagine that many!? Four! :) We got it going last night, but this week I need to work out a harp solo that includes that extra chord. I wonder if I might switch harps in mid flight - not done that before. More likely I'll find a note or two that work. It's in a minor key, so lovely, lovely 3rd position beckons.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 29, 2016 6:12 AM
MindTheGap
1062 posts
Jan 29, 2016
6:20 AM
Oh yes, and I also have to re-learn the accompaniment and so to 'Midnight Hour' on the chromatic. I had it sussed, but then the singer wants to change the key. I tried to do it on the fly: 'Epic Fail' as the young people say.
Killa_Hertz
384 posts
Jan 29, 2016
9:50 AM
Nice MTG that sounds tight. I still lack knowledge in the minor scales and different positions department. Maybe i should really dig into that soon. When you get that down record a little and post it.

Bee well wylde is good. I like his lessons. I never heard anyone mention him b4. Scratch my back is classic. Durant lazy lester do a good version of that aswell? I wish i had a spiers harp. But i do know that when i get a favorite harp that i can't put down i will seek out songs in that key, just to be able to use it more.


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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
SuperBee
3314 posts
Jan 29, 2016
2:25 PM
Slim harpo recorded on excello label and lazy lester also associated with that label...I'm not aware of his version, just focussed on the slim harpo and tbirds versions...but I'll check.
These licks are pretty straightforward but the presentation is what it's all about.
I think my new amp will get a workout with this. One of the guys I jam with has been enthused enough to practice it too...but not enough to consider trying to do it 'properly'...bugs me...
SuperBee
3315 posts
Jan 29, 2016
2:45 PM
Mtg, if you approach that song from a 2nd pos angle...so your I chord is 2nd, it can work...but your I chord is really a 'i' chord, so you can't play 3 draw straight, nor 7 draw over that chord and likewise avoid 2 blow and 5 blow and 8 blow over that chord, though you could flatten the 8 blow.
Assume the i chord is Dm, you also have an A7 which is the V chord...you can think 3rd position but it is not minor. You may get away with the minor 3rd (2", 5) but again the straight 3 draw and 7 draw will sound wrong I expect.
The IV chord would be G and 1st position will be good and don't need to worry about the major 3rd, so all blow notes are your chord tones...
And you also need Bm..the good news is that it's 5th position, and since it's minor that will work nicely with tonic notes on 2 blow and 5 blow, minor 3rd in 2draw/3blow and 6 blow, 5th in 3draw and minor 6th 4 blow, flat 7 in 4draw. Avoid 5draw over that chord

That may seem complicated but it's not really, just a couple things to be aware of. I think if you approach it using 3rd position for the I chord, you are good for the I chord, and the first change, but the next change has you trying to play a major chord and fighting the harp which naturally wants to play minor for that chord...it's like 4th position. Let's see...the root of the chord is 3", the major third is the 4', the 5th is 5 blow/2blow, you'll want to avoid the 6th but I guess 2' or 5OB, flat 7th is the 2/+3 and 6 blow, so yeah not too bad really but avoid 4 blow and 5draw
Then that vi chord...it's gonna be rooted in 3draw and 7 draw, and you will have the minor 3rd ok in 4draw, but the 5th is diminished so you need the 5ob or the 2'. But 1draw, 2' and 3draw all will work nicely over that chord and 3", 4 draw, so you really would have quite a bit to work with...I think that chord only appears briefly in the progression too...so if you want to approach it from third...yes I think it can be easily done, just watch out on the IV chord...

Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 29, 2016 5:22 PM
Killa_Hertz
386 posts
Jan 29, 2016
2:45 PM
Yea i hear you. If your not going to do it right what's the point. There are Alot of songs that are actually pretty easy like you said, but the nuances of the player and trying to capture the style they have and play it that way. That's the hard part.

Bee what's the amp your building?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 29, 2016 2:46 PM
Truth2012
13 posts
Jan 29, 2016
2:58 PM
I keep skipping from one thing to another, which I don't think is doing me any favours!
So I've decided to try and master the lesson of Adam's, "St Louis Blues" it's going really well as I now can get all the bends where they should be and the 6 overblow that's needed. Just got to get it to play from memory now instead of reading from the tab sheets.
SuperBee
3316 posts
Jan 29, 2016
5:04 PM
KIllaHertz, it is this one:
6L6SE Lone Wolf project

You can see some photos and discussion of the adventure on my thread 'new amp' on main forum

Last Edited by
SuperBee on Jan 29, 2016 5:05 PM
MindTheGap
1066 posts
Jan 30, 2016
2:26 AM
Superbee - Thanks that's very helpful actually. Yes, in 3rd position with 'difficult' Bm chord (as you say it's a vi) I've got a diminished chord...

3D 4D 5D = B D F

And I'm quite happy with the sound of that. Flattened fifths are our harmonica bread and butter right? Plus I can't overblow 5 (ha).

I've sketched out something here. I originally played to the CCR version, but for copyright reasons I don't want to put that out, so did my own backing track for sharing. In reality I'll play this amped, so it should make for a BIG sound.

Also, the singer wants to do this one not in Dm but in Am, so it's a G-harp. Even bigger sound. My remaining question is to whether to play with loose timing like I've done here, or tight timing.



Thanks again for the advice. I will have a go at 2nd position too, but you'll know by now any excuse to use 3rd position...

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mtg - Blaring like a mad farm goose.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 30, 2016 2:49 AM
MindTheGap
1067 posts
Jan 30, 2016
5:01 AM
OK here's my 2nd position effort. You know how keen I am on the 3'' bend (not at all keen).

As you say SuperBee, that now gives lots of notes for the Bm (vi) chord including the m7th note A I think.

2B 3B 3D 4D 5B = B D F# A B

I'll have to remember that. Lots of pop-tunes have four chords in, I expect vi to come up again.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 30, 2016 5:03 AM
Killa_Hertz
391 posts
Jan 30, 2016
10:37 AM
MTG ... sounds cool bro. As for weather to do it fast or slow. I think both. If it started in 2nd position slow as a kindof intro. Then hit hard n pick up. Than change to 3rd postion. Idk. That's my take. Think it would sound cool that way. Good stuff to man.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
MindTheGap
1077 posts
Jan 31, 2016
9:36 AM
Thank you.

Today I was doing a similar thing - arranging Knock on Wood. The purpose of this current thrust is to introduce some well-known, danceable crowd pleasers into our otherwise traditional blues set. The band get a buzz out of having people get up and dance, and they don't do that to St. James Infirmary, Stormy Monday and Evil (Is Going On).

So for Knock on Wood, I've decided to keep the harp bit to the horn part rather than shoehorn in a solo. It lays out in 2nd position without any fuss - apart from the horn break (you know the bit) which is unplayable, by me, on either harp or chrom! So I'm giving that to the keyboards.

So. So much for my New Years Resolution of becoming the chromatic-horn section. :(

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 31, 2016 9:37 AM
Killa_Hertz
397 posts
Jan 31, 2016
12:43 PM
Why can't you do horns with the Dia.?

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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
MindTheGap
1079 posts
Jan 31, 2016
1:03 PM
You can, just I wanted to do them on the chromatic. I want to have a reason to play my chrom.

There is a downside to the diatonic for this purpose, for me anyway, which is that the horn parts often need strong, held notes. And although the notes may be available, they are sometimes difficult to keep solid. Some can sound a bit harpy if you know what I mean. Just my opinion.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 31, 2016 1:16 PM
tobyteneyck
8 posts
Feb 11, 2016
7:28 PM
The high notes are killing me. Working on Gussow's Harmony for Improvisation 1, and get little sounds except wheezing on any hole, blow or draw, beyond the 6th hold.
Killa_Hertz
520 posts
Feb 11, 2016
8:15 PM
Yea its tough up there for sure. The notes are more sensitive. I struggle with it too.

Try picking a note like 8 blow n just work on changing your mouth position and breath force. Force not meaning to blow hard, actually quite the oposite. Like i days I'm pretty much in the same boat, but this is what i find helps to atleast sound the notes. They take a different tact i think.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
SuperBee
3389 posts
Feb 11, 2016
10:36 PM
Today I began a 3 week project: Lee Sankey has a video of 3 scale exercises to use the whole of the harp. The first is a 1st position major scale from 1 blow to 10 blow and back, the second is a 3rd position (Dorian minor) scale from 8draw to 1 blow. The third is second position major pentatonic from 1 draw to 10 draw.
I'm playing all these as loops, 5 minutes each, with metronome. Today was day 1. I'm at 120 bpm. At the moment I'm thinking that I'll increase the tempo but not sure whether to do that during the 5 minutes or in a separate session. I think I'll see how it goes...
I figured it takes about 3 weeks at anything to really notice improved performance, and I think 15 minutes a day of this sort of exercise should be doable.
In 5 minutes at 120 bpm, I play 600 notes. For the 1st position scale that means I play it about 29 times, the others would be over 30 times. Doesn't seem that much...but the metronome imposes some discipline. I'll report back in 3 weeks.
MindTheGap
1151 posts
Feb 12, 2016
1:30 AM
Oh, good grief. Scales yes. Good point. I looked it up, is this the one?
3 Scale Exercises for High Low Transitions

tobyteneyck - Before I started playing, I naively thought that all the notes were there ready laid out, and you just had to blow/draw like a machine. It was a surprise to find out just how much I had to do to make each note sound properly. And how different it is across the instrument.

kHz's suggestion is good. The best single bit of advice I remember for the top end was to use 'hot air' - like you are huffing on your spectacles. Not sure exactly what I'm doing when I use 'hot air', but open throat? Gentle pressure? Low jaw? Whatever, I know how to do it and it's a good prescription. If you follow kHz's advice and get it working on one note then that may show the way.

Just to add that it might be you and/or the harp. The tolerances are closer up top. That understanding only came with a bit of trial and error. I've definitely had harps that needed top-end tweaking to get the notes to sound properly.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 12, 2016 1:37 AM
SuperBee
3398 posts
Feb 14, 2016
6:07 PM
Yes, that's the one. I've managed to achieve my stated aim of 1 fifteen minute session per day twice in four days..but that's ok I think. Not good enough but I haven't just dropped the ball. In the evening I have very little energy so if I don't make time prior to 6pm practice doesn't happen. Up to 138bpm on the pentatonic major and 3rd position exercises. The 10' is causing me some problems on the major scale exercise. Haven't tried the exercise Lee demonstrates at the end of the video where he puts it all together. I thought I'd leave that for later. 5 minutes is quite a long time to play these scales and hold attention. Mistakes slip in but I think that's part of the process.
Mirco
382 posts
Feb 20, 2016
1:46 PM
Here's two I've been working on:
A tramp groove with my brother. He's on lead guitar.

And Dave Barrett's "The Tub." This was recorded to complete my LOA-8 requirements.

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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
harpsquealer
11 posts
Feb 21, 2016
1:51 AM
I've been working for the past few weeks on TB bending. I can get most of the bends, but I cannot get the pitch down right. That probably is what I am working on the most. I am still trying to get the first hole bend, somewhere in the switch, my brain turns off. It's a painful process.

I am also working on the major scale. Currently, I can get sixteenth notes on the 85bpm, but I want to keep on speeding it up. The challenge of moving up and down the harp quickly and cleanly has forced me to improve a lot.

I guess these two things have been my major "projects" on the harp at the moment.

keep on harpsquealin'
harpsquealer

http://www.theharmonicablog.com/

Last Edited by harpsquealer on Feb 21, 2016 1:52 AM
Tiggertoo1962
17 posts
Feb 22, 2016
9:19 AM
After nearly 4 months of torturing the family, I've decided I need to come out of the closet if I'm gonna improve any. This is my interpretation of the first verse of "Georgia on my mind", with warts and all. I made two "takes" and chose the slightly better of the two, but didn't want to keep recording til I got through without any bum notes, cos that would kinda give a false impression of where I'm at, and there's no sense posting if you don't want honesty.

Apart from any tips on technique etc which anyone might be able to offer, I was also wondering if it's normal to still be hitting so many bum notes after 4 months of practising regularly (15 minutes to an hour per day), or whether I should sell my harps and go back to hacking out chords on a guitar.

The piece is played on a SP20 in C in 2nd position, and I started working on it about a week ago cos it's something I can practise nice and quietly now that I have this harp pretty well gapped.

I'm hoping it'll work at the first attempt, as I'm using "Box" for the first time and am not too sure if I'm going about posting the link in the right way. If not, I may be asking some of you guys (or gals) for some help with the technical side too, as I'm a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to computers.

Well, here goes nothing...

Killa_Hertz
612 posts
Feb 22, 2016
8:35 PM
Tigger ... i thought it was good man. Just keep truckin. As far as Bum notes go, I don't think you ll ever stop hitting them. I watch the pros mess up all the time. However, since you brought it up I was listening for em And i didn't really hear any. None at all that gave the nails on a chalkboard reaction ... THATS A BUM NOTE. In the grand sceme of things 4 months is not very long. I wouldn't be so tough on yourself. Aslong as your making progress your doin alright.


Harp squeeler. Can you bend well puckered? I'm only asking because i know some people try to learn TB straight outta the gate. And i think that's harder. Might be less discouraging to try pucker first.

As far as speed. When i was first starting out i liked this alot. I dunno how long you've been playing. I dont want to assume, but either way this is a good exercise. Seems simple, but it works. Kinda gets everything loose. And if you practice it a bit you can really get it moving.


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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 22, 2016 8:37 PM
SuperBee
3433 posts
Feb 22, 2016
10:07 PM
4 months...don't stress. In harmonica learning time you are making excellent progress.
GOMM is a good tune to know and I think there are a few slight variations on the melody in common use...but I think it's difficult to get all the notes in 2nd. Don't you need a major 7th (ie an F# if you're playing in G)?
The plain melody seems available in 1st, without bends from middle octave...or 12th if you are keen to develop you're bending chops. Personally I aim to play it in 12th because I am using William Galison's version as an example...he plays in F on a C chromatic. I began learning it on chromatic also, and then shifted to diatonic because I thought it more likely I'd get caught on stage with a diatonic kit and a request for this song...(as happened to me one time already and I tried to do it in 2nd...worked out ok but I resolved to 'do better next time').
12th is not really so hard as you may fear...although a C harp is always a challenge to play really good sounding bent notes for me. It's no harder than 4th and 5th, and equally useful I think, bluesier than 1st in the lower and middle of the harp, and really no harder than blues in 1st. Easier I think. And it teaches a lot about the harp. And in fact, if you ever get the urge to play blues in 1st position (and why wouldn't you? It's about the most fun you can have while playing harp with your pants on), you'll find 12th is to 1st as 1st is to 2nd...it's the scale of the IV chord..
Ahh...harmonica...
Seriously I think you are doing good for the amount of time you've been at it. 15 min to an hour a day...that's the way, chipping away at it. It really does take quite a while to play the thing using these techniques.
So the answer to your second question is definitely yes. No one should put in the effort required to play harmonica well, if you have an interest and some ability with guitar or any other instruments except French horn and oboe. Even Christelle gave up oboe for harmonica but that is one of the few acceptable swaps. Most other trades are a bad deal. It's too late for me I fear. I get twitchy if I don't have a harmonica to hand. I'm like gollum and the precious.
MindTheGap
1201 posts
Feb 22, 2016
11:58 PM
Tiggertoo - Nice one, on both counts: firstly putting your first recording up, and secondly the content.

Like kHz said, I didn't hear any bum notes. I could understand you may not have played all the notes that you heard in your head, but (I think) they were all in the scale of the tune so didn't jar. I think of Georgia as having quite a flexible tune in places actually - after listening to yours I went and listened to Ray Charles sing it, and there is a lot of flex.

I'll pick one outstanding feature which is your 3'' (whole step bend). The fact that you can get that stable and in tune on sustained note on a C-harp is notable. That shows some work put in I think.

I echo Superbee's comment that it lays out well in 1st position i.e. on G-harp in G. I was playing along with you.

If you're looking for the next layer of satisfaction, for those single-note melodies, it would be to add more shaping to the notes. I can already hear you putting in dips and things, and some hand tremolo (?) which again is great. If in time you can develop some throat vibrato that really makes the sustained notes sound nice. Many people do add really quite a lot of strong effects (hand wahs, slow dips, dragging up into the note, vibrato, hand tremolo etc.) to these kind of songs and it gives it that special 'harmonica sound'. It's quite OTT really.

Anyway, nice one. Please post more as you go!

As for progress vs time, I found it taking much longer than I expected. Compared with other instruments I've tried, the reward for effort ratio is small. More specifically: it seemed to be quite quick to learn the techniques, like bending, and the notes you need to play for blues. But then chasing a pleasing, musical sound - that's been the difficult thing.

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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 23, 2016 2:00 AM
MindTheGap
1202 posts
Feb 23, 2016
12:13 AM
Not forgetting Micro's post. Thank you! Solid playing of course. I guess one of the satisfying things about following the David Barrett course is that you get confirmation of your skills at each level. That must build confidence too.
Tiggertoo1962
18 posts
Feb 23, 2016
6:35 AM
Thanks for the replies, folks. It does give you encouragement to get a bit of positive feedback when you're starting to doubt yourself. Never been famed for my patience, I'm afraid.

@ Killa - reckon I was really more referring to "unintentional notes". As you say, we hear pros doing that kind of thing all the time too, but I suppose the big difference is, with practice, you make them sound intentional.
Nice vid BTW. Came across that one about 2 weeks ago, and have been playing that exercise about 10 - 20 times every day since.

@ Gollum - love it! "4 months...don't stress.", then you put my head straight in the tumble drier :D. I'm sure there's a shed load of great suggestions and advice in there, so I've copied your post into a doc on my desktop, and will be constantly going back to it over the next few months/years.
Main reason I tried GOMM, was I was noodling around trying to hit the 3´´ from different angles for another song, and it just popped into my head. Didn't really give any thought to the position at the time. If you're asking about the Maj 7, I've no doubt there'll be one - probably in the bridge - but I haven't quite gotten that far yet.
Personally, I have the definite aim of being able - long term - to play in different positions. I just have the feeling that, if I try to learn stuff like that in parallel instead of in series, my head might implode under the weight of information. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on this. As well as the the pure, acoustic sound of the harp, the bending is what has always really fascinated me - the ability to make it cry, and such - so according to your description, 12th pos sounds like something to get excited about... if I make it that far.

@ MTG - you're right, there were unintentional pauses as well as unintentional notes - I just didn't articulate it too well, but you caught my drift... well done.
I'm surprised to hear that the 3´´ is seen as particularly difficult on a C harp (thanks for the compliment btw, there HAS been a lot of air drawn through that particular hole). I find I can hold that bend on this particular harp easier than on any of my others. Maybe due to the fact that I use this harp the most - for online tutorials and stuff - I've paid more attention to detail when I gapped it. Must try and spend some time doing a better job on the others.
I did try to use some hand tremelo, as you very astutely caught, but listening back, it was very random and unpredictable. Great advice regarding throat vibrato, hand wahs, & co. That's the kind of stuff I love about the harp - the fact that it's in some ways almost an acoustic synthesiser. Need to start working on all that stuff once I feel a bit safer with the basic notes.
I know what you mean about progress v time, and I think I have a theory about that. (Stage aside, wife's voice from the rear - "Oh shit! Here we go again..."). I reckon before you've even had the chance to develop an embrochure, the harp kind of sucks you in. If you have any sense of rhythm at all, you can put the harp in your mouth, inhale and exhale a few times, and all of a sudden you hear parts of familiar tunes coming out of this thing in 2- or even 3-part harmony. "Can't be that tough to play well!" says the heart - and the head believes it long enough to get you hooked.

@ Mirco and harpsquealer - sorry guys, kinda forgot my etiquette there and breenged straight in without even a nod to other posts in the line. Got a bit over excited, I guess.
Harpsquealer, you're a braver man than I am. If I'd started out trying to tongue block, I think I'd have given up by this time. I want to have it in my repertoire eventually, but I think I need to get the hang of lip pursing well before I venture into those waters.
Mirco, especially like "The Tub" - I think I've just put that on my "to do "list. Want to put me wise on what LOA-8 is? Seems there's another hole in my education there.
SuperBee
3435 posts
Feb 23, 2016
1:40 PM
tiggertoo...i only have a moment to post...but i want to give you this little run of notes to try:
5 draw, 6 blow, 6draw 7blow 8blow 8draw 9 draw 8 draw 6 draw 6 draw 5 draw
i think the melody is so strong you will hear it and get the timing sorted quickly
it is the concluding phrase for GOMM...in 12th, no bends required

oh, here is the first line of the bridge too 4 draw 5 draw 6 blow 6 draw 5 draw 4 draw 5 draw

i think you would work out the rest pretty quickly starting from there. no bends required. and then you could find those notes in the lower octave.

if your head implodes, can you try to catch it on video please?

i avoided alternate tunings for a long time from fear of a similiar loss of cranial integrity...but when Jimi lee just started showing nme stuff on a country tuned harp...i followed along and to my surprise found that rather than confusion, i began to find clarity...because i looked a bit more closely at where the notes were and how the scales worked...

ok, gotta run...'just try it"
Mirco
386 posts
Feb 23, 2016
9:38 PM
Tiggertoo: On Dave Barrett's bluesharmonica.com, he runs this system called "Levels of Achievement." It's a way to measure your progress on harmonica and to advance through his site. It goes from LOA-1 (beginner) to LOA-10 (professional).

"The Tub" is a 1st position song and a requirement to complete LOA-8. You can find the song's transcription, backing track, and step by step videos on how to play it at bluesharmonica.com. (Eve if you're new to the site. You can do things in whatever order you want, and you don't need to "unlock" this song). If you've bought a Hohner recently, you have the 30 day trial code.

1st Position. Needs pretty good bending.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
SuperBee
3436 posts
Feb 23, 2016
11:27 PM
Ah yeah, Mirco, the tub is quite a challenge hey? The BT is deceptively quick. Those low end 1st position licks are actually really handy too.
I think for me, the most difficult part was the 4th chorus. The 'fanfare' lick, in measure 9, ending in the octave split, followed by the interesting timing of the repeating lick for 10 and 11.
It took me a while to get the hang of that, to hit the split clean and then get the timing right for the next part.
The 5th chorus is one of my favourite things. It's great from start to finish. A really fitting climax to the song. The song is 5 choruses of condensed 1st position education. It stands up well on its own, or to just grab a chorus from, or take apart and appropriate the classic licks. That 5th chorus really is a beauty though, it hangs together so well. The 3rd chorus is also powerful.
That song has so much bending of 2 and 3 draw, and the bends sound so good when done accurately that it's a very good practice piece. It is all over those bends, relentlessly.
Sometimes I think I play it pretty well, then I hear my recorded version and remember I still have work to do. Very difficult at tempo.
Tiggertoo1962
21 posts
Feb 24, 2016
12:32 PM
Hey, thanks for that SB. Gives me plenty to work on while I'm making videos of my head.

Mirco - I have a whole bunch of these Hohner codes. I've just started doing evening classes every couple of weeks and thought I'd wait til those are over first, and then check out the bluesharmonica.com site once I have more time to concentrate on it. I've heard that Dave Barrett's lessons are heavily tongue blocking orientated - is that true?
Speaking of which, do you TB the whole of The Tub, or just where you're playing the octaves? It's something I want to wait a while before getting into, as I have enough on my plate ATM learning to lip purse properly. It's actually mainly because of the amount of low bending in it that I'm attracted to it as a practice piece but, as SB says, it's really good for taking apart and extracting what you need from it.

Thanks
Fin
SuperBee
3439 posts
Feb 24, 2016
1:32 PM
Heres my starting place for trying to develop a Solo for Georgia On My Mind. This is pretty much from memory and i have some gaps...recorded in the cab of my Hilux at lunchtime yesterday (in australia this is a 'ute'...although ive seen a tendency for people to use the word 'truck' lately)...it was very hot, like a sauna in the cab, and i had to open the window, hence captured some passing traffic noise, This is key of Eb, Bb harp. a bit rough in places but i hope it gives an idea of how it might scrub up quite well ... 'eventually'

Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 24, 2016 1:35 PM
SuperBee
3440 posts
Feb 24, 2016
1:55 PM
i cant share Bill's version here, but here is Toots Kim demonstrating my inspiration quite well
Mirco
387 posts
Feb 24, 2016
11:57 PM
Tiggertoo: I generally tongue block everything. It's how I started. At this point, there's so much I would have to give up in my sound if I were to switch. The rhythmic stuff-- the slaps and pulls-- become second nature.

Superbee: That repeating lick in Chorus 4 was the major hurdle for me. And some of the speed when going from, say, a 3" to a clean 2. I agree it's a good song for mining 1st position licks, but Sonny Boy's "Trust My Baby" is probably the best thing to steal from.
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Tiggertoo1962
24 posts
Feb 25, 2016
9:51 AM
Hey, for just shaking it out of your socks, that was pretty cool, Bee. I like the sound of where you're going with that. I'll adhere the the school of KISS in the meantime til I have a bit more harpin' time under my belt ;).

Mirco - I certainly don't see any reason to switch if you can tongue block, as it definitely gives you a load of tools in your box. Just that, now I've started with pursing, I don't want to take on too much at once in case I get disillusioned with my progress.
MindTheGap
1221 posts
Feb 29, 2016
2:33 PM
So I was working on something using blow notes on the IV chord, at the low end. Then I suddenly though, why not just arpeggiate all the way up to the top? The blow are notes are all chord tones after all. I don't think I've heard anyone do that, I'm sure they must have. See what you think, the rest is just filler. Makes a change from climbing up with a pentatonic run.



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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 29, 2016 2:36 PM
Killa_Hertz
662 posts
Feb 29, 2016
4:23 PM
MTG. .... I like it. It definitely has potential. I mean it sounds good like that, but ... you know what i mean.

As for yall talking about tongue block. My personal feeling is that both embouchures have advantages. I want to be fully proficient at both. I think too many people think of it as either/or. Right now i do probably 70% pursed 30% TB. Meybe more TB depending on the song. I want to learn to bend TB as good as i can pursed, but My focus is elsewhere right now. But the point is, neither is the ultimate, i dont think.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 29, 2016 4:23 PM
MindTheGap
1222 posts
Feb 29, 2016
11:20 PM
Ta. 'Has potential' - I'll take that! :)

Re tongue block, when I started reading MBH it was a routine and constant debate for ages. It's not discussed so much now. I can see why anyone who wants to master the instrument would want to be fluent in both. But then, what about U-blocking?

Given playing the harp is so much about feel, I can't deny the joy of either a phrase cleanly with LP then TB. Not just to add grit, slaps and chords, but just the feel of the TB bends and vibrato is pleasant.

Your comment diverted me from what I was supposed to be practising, to recording this, and playing some TB bends. Interestingly, when I played a 6D bend TB'd, I could feel the cavities in my face vibrating in a slightly alarming way. That's probably good!

EDIT: Thinking about it, that might be a good one for Adam's testimonial thing. From single notes to slaps and chords and double stops. I'm not set up to do YT vids though.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 01, 2016 1:21 AM
Killa_Hertz
665 posts
Mar 01, 2016
3:06 AM
U blocking. Pshh. Does anyone actually do that? Lol.

I'm really not trying to start a debate about it, but .....

Lip pursing for me isnt only because i can play single notes faster .. or articulate my bends much better. I do some things with pursing that just arent possible with TB. For instance when playing certain rythms you can play a 123 chord backbeat .... narrow your lips and play a single note 2 and so on. Something like adams grooving shuffle. But on the flip side there are obviously things you can do TB that are impossible pursed. So i say both. They both are pretty dynamic, but if you shut out a whole playing style, you've lost half of the possibilities.

I disagree with dave barret trying to teach new players TB from the start. I would think it would be too hard. Obviously it works for some, but im not sure i would have made it this far by doing it that way. TB can be frustrating and slower to learn, i think anyways.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
SuperBee
3462 posts
Mar 01, 2016
11:42 AM
Umm. I think playing chords to single notes and chords is one of the main things about tongue blocking. That's actually how I started with the technique. Oh susannah in waltz time with chords to keep the beat.
SuperBee
3463 posts
Mar 01, 2016
12:17 PM
My first teacher was a local player...I did a course he ran...I had already been playing a while and he told me to do his advanced class. It wasn't very advanced, but I learned things. At the end of the course he suggested ideas for 'next steps' to each of us. With me, he said I should work on 'ooh la las'.
Like what?
And that's where the oh Suzannah thing came from. I can't remember exactly what 'ooh la la' had to do with it...something to do with the chord and the single note and the words to think while you do it. But anyway I remember it was sloppy and clumsy feeling but it did get me used to the idea of putting my tongue on and off the harp, and connecting my tongue to my brain with thought-words.
I've also wondered how I'd have gone with David's lessons if I hadn't already had some tongue block technique. I didn't know names for techniques but I remember thinking 'you are making this way harder than it needs to be' when I followed the early lessons on the site.
But also..I definitely refined my rough and ready home style self taught technique...and one of the payoffs was that I mastered? a lip technique I'd never had...I went from being a 'top lip' player to a bottom lip player. I also made an effort to use the top tip of the tongue whereas left to my own inclination I'd be using the underside.
With the think word thing...I realised the tongue flutter Dave teaches I have a word to make that easier. I couldn't do it smoothly at all until I thought la la la la la la la la while I did it, and then the jerkiness smoothed out. If I notice it getting jerky, I go back to thinking 'la la'
La la is a thing that makes your tongue do pretty much the thing that is the flutter, so the neutral *neural, thank you autocorrect* connection is already there. You don't need much movement to tongue block, it's probably only 5mm back and forward, at most.

Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 01, 2016 1:23 PM
Killa_Hertz
671 posts
Mar 01, 2016
5:09 PM
I didnt say chords to single note. Generically. But like 123 to 2. Well i guess that could be done TB, even tho it would be harder. And the sound wouldn't be the same as narrowing your lips around the chord to get the single note.

I know what you mean tho bee. If im playing TB backbeat chords with slaps I tend to play more like 234 to 4. Ya kno what i mean. So depending on what im goin for.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
SuperBee
3465 posts
Mar 01, 2016
5:19 PM
Ok...a few things to follow up:
The scale thing lost me. I have not pursued it. I started out ok then got distracted by other things. I got a wave of repair jobs in the post that landed on top of me. I've had it with repairs for s while. It was really good to do but a year is enough. I learned a great deal from repairs to other people's harps. But now, I'm not really learning, or maybe I am learning more about expediency and what really matters. I can't charge enough for my work to make it pay...but it takes as much time as a second job...
Anyway, the scales activity is good. I wondered whether doing it fast was actually worth worrying about. I found that practicing the entire harp with major first did start to develop my knowledge of where I am on the harp and I must say that my jam last Sunday was the most pleasing improv that I've ever done.
What else? Oh, so I really think I began to hear the scale in a way that was just more intimate, or instinctive...not sure how to describe it..,more innate perhaps.
And the transition of breath direction was happening before I could think about it.. I'd be down to 6 blow and realise I was already past the the blow draw draw blow part.
The 10' was hard to play without messing up the time but definitely improving. I tongue block the whole thing and it can get a bit spitty on the 10 but was getting better today I noticed.
The 3rd position scale...I'm not quite sure if there was much to say, maybe just awareness of where I am, a shift of tonal centre and trying to hook into that. It's like the major scale but easier. I wasn't really sure how to practice it from the LS video
The 2nd pos major pentatonic is a good thing to do. I did definitely notice my work with that scale improved.
So I conclude there is benefit to be had from this practice. It's discipline required to keep at it though, and it's not very exciting to actually do...you can talk about it all you want, but the benefit comes from doing.
Ok, next topic: MTG, the arpeggio for the IV chord. I don't think it really works. I mean, it isn't wrong, it doesn't stink, but it wasn't inspiring. If you were stuck, you could do it but you may be better to do nothing.
So, the interesting thing to consider is, why is that? Why is that musically 'correct' approach uninspiring?
I'm not gonna attempt to answer that right now...probably mainly because I don't really know. I have some ideas, but I need to think about it more.
3rd: Georgia on my mind. Must remember to get this sorted.
4th: 1st position stuff. Mirco commented on the usefulness of'trust my baby' as a first position lick/phrase source. Must remember to follow up.
Id like to mention Adam Gussow's lesson on 'how long can a fool go wrong' as a great intro on playing first over 12 bars. An example of how simple phrasing can be very effective. Remember, when playing 12 bar blues in first, the chords correspond to 1st, 12th, and 2nd position. And playing 1st position on the high end...the root of the I chord (which makes up to 2/3rds of the 12 bars) is on 7 blow, and the octave on 10 blow. The important chord tones are 7 blow, 8' blow, 9 blow, 10" blow and 10 blow. And you can also blow the 9' for a flat 5th. If you can bend the high reeds with control, the top end really opens up.
Adams lesson on how long can a fool go wrong is one of the best things I have ever done for getting my head around 'harmony for improvisation'. I think it was just the right time, and one thing he said brought a bunch of things I already knew together for me...just his mention that the 9 blow is the 5th of the chord, and his mention of how important that is, the equivalent of 4 draw in second position...brought a bunch of stuff together for me...you know how you can wail on 4 draw, bend it and then...what do you do after 4 draw...suddenly I had things I knew how to do on the high blow notes...
I put off playing the high end for so long...if I could get that time back, I'd go there much sooner.
I just realised today how much I learned about tongue blocking and playing the top. I just wish I'd bothered to learn to bend the high end sooner.
And while on about it...the idea about blow bends and playing them flat instead of drawing the 'proper note'. That's definitely a 'thing'. It's not a cop out or a 'kind of' technique. It's not obligatory but there is some stuff you probably can't quite do without that sound, because of the transition between notes.
Ok, oh...new thing to work on is 'trouble in mind', an 8 bar 1st position song from the big Walter album 'with Carey Bell' (1973)
MindTheGap
1302 posts
Mar 19, 2016
1:55 AM
I'm working on Bacon Fat's "She's a Wrong Woman'. Empowered by Superbee's reference to Madcat Ruth's "Nobody Know's You", with it's funky notes, I will be doing it in 3rd position on a C harp. That involves funky notes too, and WILL be enjoying them.

Here's the intro so far. This is acoustic practice, in reality I'll be playing this will lots of amped grit and delay.



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Tiggertoo1962
41 posts
Mar 19, 2016
1:53 PM
Just got home from work and had a listen to it, MTG, and The Wife said "that sounds cool", so you have two thumbs up so far. Hope you're going to post the whole thing amped up once you have it finished ;).
ME.HarpDoc
137 posts
Mar 19, 2016
2:29 PM
MTG I see you, Bee and Tigger all post audio files the same way. I used forum search but I'm not very tech savvy and I wondered if one of you could explain how you do this or steer me in the right direction.
SuperBee
3519 posts
Mar 19, 2016
3:08 PM
It's the 'box' sharing app. And specifically it's the 'embed widget' which can be a little hard to find the first time, but makes it very easy to post a sound file. As easy as posting a YouTube video...no need to type all the html code, just copy and paste.
I used to use Dropbox, but they changed the codes and it no longer worked with this site...

I like that playing too MTG...I tried to play along and found it much easier after I realised I'd picked up an A harp by mistake. When I changed to C it was much easier though I still make 2nd position moves which are ingrained and sound awful in 3rd...just haven't played 3rd enough to have an instinct for it outside the I chord...so I have to be very deliberate...but yeah...I was inadvertently playing along in 12th at first and my 3rd position moves were just not doing it all...'what the heck is he doing?'


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