Ian
214 posts
Jan 11, 2016
4:10 AM
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Following on for the gapology post....
It just got me thinking, when considering the real world differences between the Marine bands (and there isn't much) , that there must be a base level harp that can be upgraded to the point where it plays really well.
Is it possible to customise a cheap harp until it play as well as one of the better harps?
How good COULD you make it? With gapping, embossing, sanding etc... No replacement parts.
How cheap could you go? I'm guessing that the base level harp would be the one which still has decent reeds.
Obviously the sp20 and the Marine band are probably the most popular for customising, but these are already good harps and don't need much work (if any) to sound good anyway.
Last Edited by Ian on Jan 11, 2016 4:20 AM
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MindTheGap
963 posts
Jan 11, 2016
4:54 AM
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Practical experience: I tried to do all the moves on my set of Bluesbands, and they still weren't good compared to SP20s. The low harps ended up OK, in tune and reasonably responsive, able to do some OBs, but quiet and sort of spongy compared to the better harps. The high keys still barely worked properly at all. And it's definitely them not me, before anyone starts :)
I always noticed that the reeds were much more plastic vs SP20 reeds (i.e. easier to physically bend permanently). That seemed like it might be important in some way - you know, different materials possibly. But then when I switched to my beloved Lee Oskars, the reeds are similarly plastic. And 'the thing' about Lee Oskars is that people say they are more durable. So there you are. No idea, just a few observations.
This is just conversation, I'd be interested to hear what a proper customiser has to say...
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 11, 2016 5:29 AM
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Killa_Hertz
170 posts
Jan 11, 2016
6:19 AM
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Yes If you take apart a blusband or a cheap harp like that the reeds suck and are like tin foil.
And customizing the marine band isn't about it NEEDING it. But trust me until you play a fully customized harp you have no idea the night n day difference.
Gapping would be the only thing i would say is something you should always do. It's so easy and makes the harp play to your playing style and needs. It's worth learning how to do.
I wouldnt prsctice on the bluesbands, because as r.sleigh says you really wanna practice on something that's similar to the harp you will be playing. Because reeds of all different metals and dedigns react different to customizing. And abluesband is never gonna play that great. It just wont. Maybe one of the pros could make it nice. But for your first custom harp i think it would just frustrate you.
If you learn about what your doin before attempting it, you should have any issues with gapping. None what so ever. Embossing is tough. You WILL ruin the first harp you try to emboss. But i don't think embossing is something you need to do at all. Thats pretty advanced. Gapping, flat sanding, upgrade the comb or just flat sand the stock one, and arching the reeds. You ll have a pretty awsome harp.
People wouldn't pay an extra $100 for a custom harp if it wasn't worth it
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 11, 2016 6:42 AM
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MindTheGap
966 posts
Jan 11, 2016
7:04 AM
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I was responding to Ian's specific question: can you improve a cheap harp?
My experience is limited, but relevant. To address your point: I practised on these cheap things, and used the skills on my better harps. A bit of embossing wasn't that hard - brass is soft and mistakes easily corrected. Doing it quickly and efficiently on 20 reeds - that would be hard I think. And then on multiple harps, you'd need to get tooled up. Then your hobby is customising!
Is it the reeds? I don't know. I have another model of harp (Sonny Boy's Mojo) where the reeds are much springier (less plastic) than an SP20. More akin to spring steel than brass (they aren't steel). It doesn't play much different when gapped the same. As I say, the Lee Oskars seem plastic, pliable and play fine. Explain that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 11, 2016 7:50 AM
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Killa_Hertz
171 posts
Jan 11, 2016
9:35 AM
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I don't know what you mean about plastic. But lee oskars are ok harps. I think it has to do with the thickness and maybe the quality of metal used.
Light embossing is not bad. I'm talkin full embossing and of the entire reed. If you slip with a tool or something you can really F up a reed beyond repair trust me.
I make most of my harp tools. Ill try to post a pic later. I basically made a harp swiss army knife out of a feeler guage set. It s pretty handy. I just kinda came up with the idea and made tools as i needed them
MTG I was also thinking, that if you do not gap your 3 hole correctly, this may be the problem with you not getting you 3bends as easily as you could. I know the 1 2 and 3 holes are the ones i focus on the most. I really have to set my 3 draw and blow up just right to be able to get the precision i want on the bends. I can still bend em un gapped, but not as well by far.
I really suggest the chicken shack download tho. It may seem a little simple, but it is a good lil tune to kno. And some of the pieces ive taken and elaborated and use in improvising. It really will help with your 3 draw bends. I had em nailed in about two weeks after downloading it
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 11, 2016 9:38 AM
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Rontana
255 posts
Jan 11, 2016
10:10 AM
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I don't know that any cheap harp is worth customizing (I define "cheap harp" as under around $25 a pop . . . or something like that Piedmont junk).
As for my own stuff, I've mostly got Sp 20s (which I still think cost too much at $35 . . . but they seem the best deal around). I opened up the backs of all of them (it's deadly simple) and set the gaps to suit my playing ability (using a post-it note and a toothpick). They all work just fine. Gapping greatly improved response, and it seemed opening the back helped in that aspect too (on the high end particularly). I also liked the tone and volume of the open back SP 20s.
If I'm completely honest, I far prefer the tone of a regular old Marine Band over anything else (I have just one in C . . . but I play it to death). However, I don't like messin' with the nails, and am not willing to pay 60 or 70 bucks for an MB with screws. Just seems silly
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 11, 2016 10:16 AM
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MindTheGap
967 posts
Jan 11, 2016
10:22 AM
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Plastic = easy to bend permanently. Plastic deformation mean that a material takes on a permanent change when a force is applied. As opposed to elastic deformation when it springs back into shape. To repeat, I might have thought that the more bendable (plastic) bluesband reeds were part of the reason that they aren't very good. But the Lee Oskar reads are like that too. So it's probably not that.
For fun I've explored the full parameter space of the 3: gaps of both reeds, shape of both reeds, height of both reeds. I've compared with a good custom harp. Conclusion: the 3 draw bends are difficult. Don't get me wrong, I can do them and use them all the time musically.
Just a gentle suggestion that you might look back and think it was premature to say you nailed the 3D bends in two weeks :) I've read very experienced players saying they take a long time to get full control of the little devils. That's been my story, I think I got something sussed then, oh no, there's more to it. Crazy really. Levels within levels.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 11, 2016 10:47 AM
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SuperBee
3211 posts
Jan 11, 2016
1:21 PM
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I'd say no. It's not good value. If it was, it would be happening.
You'd have to replace the comb. No question.
The reed plates I expect are inferior in terms of precision. They'd be made very cheaply. I don't have these harps. I have never played them. I do have a hohner silver star actually. But it was so awful I never bothered with it.
I suspect the tolerances of the slots to reeds would take a lot of work. Could you ever make it play well? I don't know...
But
I have seen comments from several harp tech/customisers relating to the marine band and blues harp of the 80s and 90s. Without going into too much detail, let me just say there are some of these regarded as a lost cause. As MP said to me 'you can't make a silk purse...'
So could you? Maybe but I think the amount of work involved makes it impractical.
I don't know but I expect the basic quality of the reed material is inferior. And I expect the tolerance is less precise to allow for mechanical assembly. When hohners started to lose their mojo, it was about inattention to the plant, failure to resharpen and adjust or replace tools which cut the reed plates. But they still used people to assemble the harps. I suspect the cheap harps are made by machines.
Harvey Harp has some insight into this I think. I think I recall him addressing such a question before but maybe on Facebook
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Killa_Hertz
175 posts
Jan 11, 2016
4:11 PM
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MTG your right. What i should have said i was having trouble with the 3draw bends. I was working on em for a while before beginning the lesson.
But theyre are two parts in chicken shack where you have to .... well its easier to just tab the part out .... but still buy it ... lol. .... it's 2d 3'd 2d 3''d 2 . And the other one ...... well adam does sell this so. U get the idea. Go listen to the free preview. And you can hear it. If you CAN play it with the preview at speed i would say that's the first step to really gettin it. If not download it. Lol
I use that riff to set up my 3 hole. If i can hit that riff with no problem ,at Speed, then i know it's good.
I might not call it mastered, but i damn sure got em down. I can hit which ever one i want in passing. Grab it and let it go. But don't get me wrong when i say 2 weeks i don't mean 2 weeks of messin around. I straight played that song 24/7 for two weeks. At work, at home, hummed it in my sleep. Disected all of the bends over n over. Doubting weather i was getting this one or that one right. Listening to audio samples of 3 draw bends. Till i got it. They are tough tho. Adam has a riff of the same type that got me to get my 2 draw bends down when i first started.
Just because i can play this song i don't think i have em down to be clear. This was just what got me started. I ve since used other exercises and practiced them. But this is what made them into a song i could practice them with and get them into my muscle memory.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 11, 2016 4:12 PM
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Ian
215 posts
Jan 11, 2016
5:30 PM
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Ok, so I suppose the root cause if my question was simply curiosity over where the manufacturers have the tipping points in quality.... Round about way of posing the question I suppose, but beyond that it would be of interest to see if anyone has every really successfully customised a cheap harp.
Hohner is a perfect example of why I ask the question.
As a brand they have a handful of super cheapo harps, then one or two above that, then the midrange then the top end.
What I was asking myself more than anything is what am I paying for when I hand my money over for a crossover when in essence it's just a marine band with a few tweaks.
So, if I take that concept down a pay grade can I, or someone with customising skills take a cheaper harp and make it reach crossover standard?
It seems that the answer is basically no, as the break point in quality comes at around the midrange, anything under that and you are treading water.
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Killa_Hertz
182 posts
Jan 11, 2016
7:37 PM
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If you take a MB and convert the nails to screws, by a custom comb and tune it to crossover tuning you basically have a crossover yes. That's why i only bought one. And then all after that where just Regular MBs that i upgraded. As it turns out i just upgraded the comb on my crossover so what was the point. Besides the sex screws n the nicer covers.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 11, 2016 9:36 PM
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Killa_Hertz
183 posts
Jan 11, 2016
8:03 PM
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Idk why my pictures never show up. What's the deal?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3214 posts
Jan 11, 2016
10:27 PM
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what are you doing to post them? where are you hosting them?.
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MindTheGap
970 posts
Jan 12, 2016
12:21 AM
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Ian I think it was a great question. Hohner have so many models, how would someone new to the harp culture have any idea which to buy and why?
I do think there is a tipping point at the MB/SP20 kind of level, but why should there be a tipping point at all? You might think that it was simply a continuous improvement from cheapest to most expensive.
I just had a look, there's buckets of them. 'Blue Midnight' anyone? How about 'American Ace' or 'White Cobra'?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 12, 2016 12:31 AM
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SuperBee
3215 posts
Jan 12, 2016
12:47 AM
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A lot of yhe specials are one-offs, as in, they only come in one key.
But yes, I guess the continual improvement idea seems logical, but hohner's marketing strategy goes back to the 19th century in some ways.
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Ian
216 posts
Jan 12, 2016
3:22 AM
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@ mtg, exactly. If you look at suzuki for example they seem to have a more continuous and gradual improvement to their models, with a few more variations in reed plates etc.
Is it just lazy marketing do you think with a brand like hohner ? Especially if you think about the deluxe or crossover. There's quite a sizable price difference between those models and really what's the difference.....? A bamboo comb?
It all made me wonder if there was a harp out there that was sooooo unpolished and basically set up but was based on good bones!
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Killa_Hertz
191 posts
Jan 12, 2016
5:31 AM
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I'm doing the html code. On my phone it shows just a lil emblem.<.img..src..=..."..."> i even set up a photo bucket account so i could post pics. I know what you mean ian, i thought about it myself. It just didn't work tho.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3217 posts
Jan 12, 2016
1:49 PM
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yeah, i think i was struggling too which is why i went to the box and now use their embed widget which means i forgot about the problem i was having with the html. i am ok with html usually but ive had problems here. no problem with posting links though
i dunno if thats right about suzuki. they make the folkmaster which is one of the better rubbish harps. not worth the effort, then they make a whole bunch that are basically the same. or conseptually different. the bluesmaster/harpmaster is the same harp with different covers and can repay work to improve it, the manji is its own thing..or maybe the olive is a manji with different covers too...but in terms of quality its on a par with the promaster as far as i can tell, and the promaster is the template for a bunch of harps. theyre a bit different but in terms of quality all very similiar as far as i can see
the tipping point for hohner harps:
Imho there are 2 diatonics made by hohner which are worth money: the marine band/progressive range (AKA the handmade series) and the MS range. both products will repay work.
the MS big river is the best value MS harp. it suffers from a crappy comb, same as the pro harp. a good comb and some reedwork and these can be great harps, especially if you like the slightly larger format. the drawback for me is the availability of single reeds. but its not so much of a problem if i just look after my own
the sp20 and the MB1896 are the best value handmades, maybe the GM too, ive never bought one so not familiar with the RRP.
i believe when you buy a crossover you get a bamboo comb which is a very nice comb, and you would pay at least $20 to buy this as an aftermarket item. i also think you geta harp which has generally had more attention given its setup. i have 4 crossover's and a thunderbird and of course i've repaired them and tweaked them and tuned as necessary, but i dont feel the need to upgrade them. i upgrade MB1896 harps to be as good as a MB2009. i bought my MB2009s in a single lot, from USA at a time when the Aussie was at parity with the Eagle and got them for $60each. they are >$90 here and a MB1896 is nearly $60 now...best price on a good custom comb is over $20 so i think the crossover is not really bad value.
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Killa_Hertz
197 posts
Jan 12, 2016
2:34 PM
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The thing with the crossover is ... yes you do get a better comb, but not custom. It's not flat for shit. And personally i like the tuning of the mb1896 much better. However i tune some of the 1896s to 19 limit which is my favorite tuning hands down.
I think if you have the know how and will to convert a 1896 to screws, buy a comb from andrew or tom, and Retune it to 19 limit. (Or whichever tuning you like. Stock tuning is good,if it's in tune) That's the Best avenue for the money. As far as marine bands go that is.
I don't think I'll ever buy a crossover or deluxe again. The deluxe doesn't even come with the good sex screws like the crossover. What a Gip!
Infact i just put a Blue Moon comb on my crossover. So now one of my 1896s gets the hand me down bamboo.
I will say that bamboo does sound real nice. I really am wondering what it will sound like on a 19 limit JI harp. Should i go D or G? Which ever one doesnt get the bamboo is getting the gray comb from andrew zajac that's in the mail.
Choices Choices.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 12, 2016 3:39 PM
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Killa_Hertz
200 posts
Jan 12, 2016
3:43 PM
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The Manji harp and tuning are quickly becoming an equal favorite. Funny Cus the tunings are SOOO different.
Manji is Very Mellow. But i dig it. Its a change from the shrill raspyness
But to sum it up .... my advice would be to buy a good model harp with no bells n whistles. And add your own Bells and Whistles. You ll end up with MUCH better harps. Crossovers IMO are over rated.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 12, 2016 3:44 PM
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Ian
217 posts
Jan 12, 2016
5:52 PM
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Good input guys, always interesting to see where the conversation goes on here!
Lots of good background stuff there superbee, good to get your opinion on the tipping point!
@kh. Its funny what the war picks up as I don't thing of the manjis as a mellow sound, more dirty and crunchy.
I love them, although for playability sake I find tweaked marine bands (Inc crossovers and deluxe) a bit more responsive.
Well, I'm not planning on becoming a pro customiser any time soon that's for sure but I will keep tinkering.... As its fun.
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Killa_Hertz
209 posts
Jan 12, 2016
6:42 PM
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I'm right with you there.
I find marine bands more responsive for sure. I wonder if it has to do with the reed material?
But the more i get used to the Manji the more i like it.
Some of my Maine bands, Especially the C 19 limit tuned with the zajac comb, are LOUD and Really Raspy.
In comparison i find the manji more mellow.
Idk if i would ever call a harp crunchy. But after A/B ing my Bb MB Deluxe & Manji I guess i see how you could say that.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3218 posts
Jan 12, 2016
10:17 PM
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yeah i dunno. people talk about reed material as if its a big deal but i'm not so sure.
i suspect the differences are more down to factors like the relative dimensions of the reeds, including the changes in thickness along the length, and the size of chambers and thickness of reedplate.
i never questioned the thought that reed material was a big factor until i repaired a seydel big six. thats a steel harp but the only reed i had to fit it was brass reed from a Low Eb. the big six is funny animal. it is not the low end of an 1847. it is the middle 6 holes of an 1847. so if you get one in C, the slots actually correspond to the middle 6 slots (ie slots 3-8)of a Low F...anyway i needed a 4 blow reed and that lined up with the 6 slot of an 1847 and either blow 6 from F or draw 6 from Eb, which i had on hand
so i was dubious about putting a brass reed in this steel harp, but after i adjusted it i swear i could not pick the difference. it didnt sound different and it didnt even feel different.
so that made me think...if i cant tell the difference between steel and brass, how much difference could there be between different brass alloys?
it also occurs to me that the sound we hear from the harp is not made by the reed, it is made by the air being chopped up by the reed...which is why i think the differences are about the size of the chamber, thickness, length and width of the slot and the relative flexibility and stability of the reed along its length, resulting in the way it interacts with the slot. i don't believe the properties of the metal have much influence on the sound. they probably affect the durability of the reed and they may effect the most suitable shape you can make with that material...that's a bit beyond my ken.
i think cover plates have a big influence on the sound the player hears too. and tuning is mega important. and reed setup will affect how much dynamic range and absolute loudness/softness the harp is capable of. a comb can make big changes because it can change the chamber size for one thing. comb material probably makes some difference. i'm sure i can pick a metal comb from non-metal but not so clear between different non metal combs for me. seydels have a particular tone i think comes from their slightly thicker reedplates...3 thou thicker i think. maybe why their brass reeds are so prone to early failure but they can afford top build them that way because the steel reeds can take it...just a half-baked untestable hypothesis
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 12, 2016 10:22 PM
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Killa_Hertz
223 posts
Jan 13, 2016
10:07 AM
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That's not the way i thought of it at all. Until now. I think you might be on to something there.
I thought that steel was thicker so thats why some of them where slightly harder to play. But come to think of it my seydel 1847 is about as easy as a 1896 MB. The session steel and manji however feel a little tougher. But this could also be due to the design of the harp. Reed thickness, channel shape in between the tines, comb design and material. It does seem like standard brass reeds are easier to play, generally speaking, than others. It could be because of the way the harps are setup. Idk. Some parts of the harps function are still a mystery to me. Well not the function per se, but the WHY it functions the way it does.
Good post man.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Just a lil' HaHa HooHoo on the 3/4 - 4/5!
@MTGap
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Halffast
12 posts
Jan 13, 2016
1:36 PM
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I was glad to see this thread started .
I haven't heard anyone mention these but the first harp I ever bought ( middle or so of last year ) was a Fender Blues DeVille ( NOT to be confused with a Blues Deluxe ) in " C ". I had watched a youtube video by Jake where he compared it to the SP20 and he gave it a favorable review . It has phosphor/bronze reeds , plastic comb , a fairly open back , openings at the ends , and cover corners that don't snag the moustache . Got one of ebay for $25 shipped . It is the harp that hooked me on playing and is the one that I still carry with me at all times should some play/practice time arise . Nice tone , fairly easy to get bends and such but there is a problem I have with it that caused me to fill my harp case with a mishmash of SP20 and Lee Oskar harps . The reed plates stick out farther than the comb and have grooved channels for the front of the covers to sit down in . This actually " saws " into both corners of my upper lip if I play it very long . I believe I am going to try and carefully sand the plates flush to the comb and slightly radius them to make a smoother transition to the cover plates . Might open the back a tiny bit more too via Dremel tool as was discussed in another thread . These are readily available for about $30 and can be had even cheaper when there is a sale , as was my case . If my mods work well I may just have to get more of them .
I also see where Fender is producing a John Popper model now with steel reeds , and cover plates that go all the way to the ends of the harp ala Seydel . Anybody try one of these yet ? Can't remember the price for sure but think it was between $70 - $100 .
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Killa_Hertz
224 posts
Jan 13, 2016
5:48 PM
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The john popper model is a seydel session steel with vintage cover plates marked up with John poppers name on it. Save a lil dough and buy a session steel.
I would recommend not sanding them smooth with the comb. Just lightly sand them and round the edges. Take the coverplates off and lightly sand those edges aswell. Try this first.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Just a lil' HaHa HooHoo on the 3/4 - 4/5!
@MTGap
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Halffast
13 posts
Jan 17, 2016
6:04 AM
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OK , I did surgery on the Fender Blues DeVille . The outer , sharp , raised , cover groove ridges were filled off at a slight angle to be flush with the cover plates and just shy of flush with the comb . The corners of the comb and reed plates were rounded slightly . Cover backs were opened up by about an eighth inch but I just used some files and took my time instead of going crazy with a Dremel . Everywhere I filed was then smoothed with emery/crocus cloth . Took about 2 hours while drinking coffee and watching a movie . It made a world of difference in how the harp moves across the lips ; very smooth now and no more cutting into my upper lip . I don't think it is my imagination but it seems to have better tone and volume and is even closer sounding to my SP20s . The reeds are WAY " stiffer " than those of my Lee Oskars and should be very durable . I'll be watching for a sale and try to pick up at least an A and G to modify similarly and use as backups ( maybe even primary harps ) .
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Killa_Hertz
277 posts
Jan 17, 2016
9:05 AM
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A file works great for minor filing. But i find if you put a wire wheel on the dremel you can really smooth everything out better and faster.
For what is worth. Might save you some time. I don't really use dtemel sanding wheels to smooth out the edges. Its a bit too much. If there are really bad spots, use the file to knock it down real quick. Then hit it with the wire wheel.
That's cool it plays better. Try flat sanding and straightening the plates and comb. That will really Boost it.
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.." Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?" .......
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Halffast
14 posts
Jan 24, 2016
1:28 PM
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This might be a dumb question but has anyone ever tried to use a sealant ( like silicone ) or some type of adhesive to mate reed plates to the comb ? Seems like it would eliminate any air leakage without the work involved with flat sanding and accomplish the same thing . It would have to be done carefully , of course , to avoid getting too much squeezing out into the reed " chambers " of the comb or on the reeds themselves . Wouldn't want anything toxic either . How about some good old Elmer's glue=all ? Just a thought .
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Ian
243 posts
Jan 24, 2016
6:04 PM
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I did try once with an old blues harp that was seriously busted up, but I made a mess of it despite trying to be as delicate as possible. Like you said, sealant found its way in to the reed chambers.
I've seen talk of people making gaskets out of tape etc so the theory is sound, it's just a tricky job.
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Killa_Hertz
335 posts
Jan 24, 2016
6:06 PM
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Definatly NOT elmers glue. But it's not a dumb idea. I came up with the same idea to make some sort of gasket. But someone had already tried that with a production harp a few years back. The problem,apparently, was they attracted dirt and microbes. The gaskets just got nasty. I don't feel it should be given up on. However i don't exactly have a better idea, as of yet, on what else to use. It also seems like flat sanding is an easier alternative. Unless of course it came stock on a harp and then you wouldn't have to do anything but gap and shape. But if the gasket ripped it would be problematic. Idk. The logistics just don't seem to work out yet.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Halffast
16 posts
Jan 25, 2016
2:01 PM
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I'm a tinkerer . Work on my own cars and motorcycles . Make my own bows , arrows , and turkey calls from natural materials . Make wine too . Worked in industrial maintenance for many years and learned to fix things with what was available just to keep them running.
Of course I'm totally new to this music/harp thing but I feel some ideas forming ( could be the wine though ). The DeVille will be my " sacrificial " harp for any experimentation . There are some amazing sealants out there and if I come up with something that works , I'll report .
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Halffast
30 posts
Mar 10, 2016
5:26 AM
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Update :
I bought a very cheap, recessed comb , brass reed Hurricane Harps " Hot House Blues " harp in Ab . Less than $10 on ebay , delivered . Reviews were that it wasn't too bad for the money and some would even gig with it in a pinch .
Tried it out and was pleasantly surprised . All notes played and the bends were there . It was a bit " breathy " ( but not the worst I've seen by far ) , it wasn't very loud , and it felt light as a feather . All in all not horrible .
The tinkering began . I used files to open up the backs of the very thin cover plates and the volume was a tad better . Next I burnished the reed slots and got them as close as possible but some of the slots ends were pretty far off and burnishing could only do so much . Also did some gapping . Now the harp was much more responsive and took less oomph to play . I then used Loctite Tub & Tile 2 in 1 sealant to seal the comb to the reed plates . By using a modelers paint brush I coated any part of the comb that would contact the plates . Also dawbed some extra into the comb " dead space chambers - you know , where there isn't any plastic ) but tried not to fill them completely . I was very careful in doing this and when I when I tightened the reed plate screws there was very little sealant that squished out . After allowing 10 minutes for a little curing to occur , I rinsed the whole deal under warm water ( this sealant is water soluble befor it cures ) and used a tooth pick to help get rid of any excess sealant . Not going to lie , a little got onto some reeds but it came out with rinsing , blowing through the holes , and the tooth pick . After curing overnight I played the harp . A HUGE difference ! Still a tiny bit airy but I noticed that the comb had a protruding " ridge " at the top and bottom that seemed to stick out a little far . I sanded the ridges off and radiused the comb toward the covers . Tone was so much better !This harp will be going with me when I play out !
For under $10 and a couple of hours of tinkering ( which I actually enjoy ) I now have a harp I'm very pleased with . Is it perfect ? No . Still a bit airy on some holes which I'm going to attribute to the space between the ends of some of the slots and the reeds . I may try to use epoxy to close that gap and see how that works . I'll give another update if I do .
Last Edited by Halffast on Mar 10, 2016 5:27 AM
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Gary 62
114 posts
Mar 14, 2016
1:35 PM
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Kind of off topic but i'll say it anyway. Are Hohner harps getting a bad reputation lately as poorly built etc? I was on line somewhere and most people were complaining about the standard of Hohner's nowadays. Seems Seydel are getting a good reputation along with Suzuki. You can OB the Seydel's SOTB so they say and the construction and quality is great. Don't slam me if you're a Hohner fan as i play SP20's. But i don't think i'll buy a Hohner again i think i'll switch to another brand and give them a shot. Probably be a Seydel. Sorry for the derail.
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Ian
307 posts
Mar 14, 2016
1:44 PM
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Not sure.
I have a few newish hohner harps and they are OK.
I still stand by suzuki as being the best build quality. They just seem like very well made instruments, they fit together well, feel solid and the parts are accurately formed. Note that's not to say they are my favourite.
Re the overblow thing, for me the best hit rate for overblows ootb are with hohner.
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SuperBee
3513 posts
Mar 15, 2016
1:26 PM
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I haven't heard any such reports. But hohner USA recently moved to new premises in Memphis (? I think) and ran their stock down prior to moving. Then they had to restock. And they reportedly have a bunch of new personnel.
I don't know if hohner USA is simply a distributor or if they also do assembly. I always figured they were just a warehouse operation but if they are also doing assembly I'd say there is the problem. Assuming there is a problem.
But otherwise, if there is a problem, and I am completely unconvinced of that, I can imagine another scenario possibly being that the German factory has been overstretched trying to resupply the USA operation post move...I mean, it shouldn't have affected their production capacity but the urgency of filling a very big order could have seen staff in Germany under pressure and resulted in some dodgy work getting out into the world...I know that the Australian order was late arriving for instance...
The other thing to consider is the people who buy the products. There are many more hohner purchasers so chances of someone complaining are much higher...and the nature of things seems to be that when one starts another joins in...
Last weekend I saw a fella complaining about a sp20...someone wanted to buy one and this chap said no, they're no good, the reeds in 4 and 6 rattle out...so someone asked him what he meant...turned out he was talking about a harp he bought in early 90s!
I haven't heard of any particular new problem with Hohner products right now, I've only seen rather vague secondhand reports. I did actually see one complaint but the person seemed prone to confusion and I wasn't convinced they hadn't mixed up a new harp with an old one they'd previously had apart...id be prepared to make a small bet on it actually.
No doubt hohners do squeeze outside the occasional lemon...they're not alone there, but I think we're more likely to hear about it. I personally love the product, and suspect I'm blind to the flaws because I am so used to them. I also have accumulated quite a lot of harps and rarely buy new. I did buy 2 new sp20 when people were making a fuss about the 'changes', just to be sure I understood the issue. Sure enough they were gapped a bit wide. I reset the gaps and they were sweet. Like really good, some of the best ever.
I also bought a 'special price' set of 5 marine bands. Also wide-gapped. im dubious about buying special priced harps from Amazon; I think sometimes you are getting someone else's problem. Seems like that anyway...I have no idea how these special deals get on there
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