bazzzzou
89 posts
Feb 03, 2011
4:36 PM
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In another topic, kinglay said that the princeton reverb reissue was a pretty good harp amp and it was better than a pro junior, should I take a princeton reverb for harmonica because I can get one and I really need a good and fat tone lol xD!!?
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Joe_L
1040 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:22 PM
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Are you going to ask about every amp in the Fender line? Where are you planning on using this thing and how much money do you want to spend?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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bazzzzou
90 posts
Feb 03, 2011
6:37 PM
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haha lol man sorry!! When I am looking on the google search for the forum, they send me on an error page =\.. so I cant find information on older topics =\!! I dont know why but the only thing I can do is to put another topic to see the opinions on blues harp players lol ..
I chek for the deville, we have to do mods... the blues junior is not good.. the fender bassman cost alot of money.. the pro junior is unexpensive but I heard a couple and it is not the tone that I want.. I saw a couple of videos of the princeton reverb and he sound really great! but I want to know if they are just monster modification amps or if they sound great without any mods..
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rharley5652
386 posts
Feb 03, 2011
8:34 PM
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Your going to have to mod just about any Guitar Amp for Harp,.
Maybe you should start lookin at custom amps made for Harp??
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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Kingley
1440 posts
Feb 03, 2011
10:11 PM
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The '65 Princeton Reverb Reissue is the best amp for harmonica I have ever played through. It doesn't need any mods at all.
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Joe_L
1042 posts
Feb 04, 2011
12:14 AM
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You don't have to mod just about any guitar amp for harp. 50 years ago there were no such things as harp amps. Buy an amp and start learning/honing your technique. You can learn a lot about playing amplified harp with just about any amplifier. The most important thing is to do it. A lot.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 12:15 AM
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hvyj
1218 posts
Feb 04, 2011
12:44 AM
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IMHO, the Princeton Reverb Reissue is a GREAT harp amp that requires no mods or tube swaps. I did put a set of 14" Fender tilt back legs on mine because I like how the sound opens up when it's tilted back, and I replaced the stock tubes (which sounded a little harsh) with JJs that sounded warmer and fatter, but I didn't change the tube configuration at all and didn't swap out the speaker or mod any of the electronics.
MUCH louder than you would expect at 15 watts. Wonderful tone. A high quality, very reliable and very versatile harp amp. HIGHLY recommended.
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5F6H
523 posts
Feb 04, 2011
2:20 AM
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@ HYVJ "IMHO, the Princeton Reverb Reissue is a GREAT harp amp that requires no mods or tube swaps. I did put a set of 14" Fender tilt back legs on mine because I like how the sound opens up when it's tilted back, and I replaced the stock tubes (which sounded a little harsh) with JJs that sounded warmer and fatter, but I didn't change the tube configuration at all and didn't swap out the speaker or mod any of the electronics."
Ha ha...whilst I agree that the PRRI is a good amp out of the box (as long as you don't get a "rattler", some have oscillation issues, that cause a tinkling sound often mistaken for "rattling tubes", subbing V1 for a 5751 or 12AY7 can usually cure this) by subbing the tubes, even for the same broad type, you altered the electronics - as different tubes, of the same type run differing voltages and currents. You can either mod the circuit to bring about these changes...or leave the circuit the same & change the tubes, if you get a different result (the sound changes), you have instigated a "mod" (it is different to how it left the factory), the method by which you got there is irrelevant.
I know, I know, I'm being a pedant...but I just love these claims of "My stock amp's great...all I did was change...." ;-) It's like, "I play OOTB harps, not customised...I just retune & regap them..."
OK, mini rant over....normal service is now resumed...
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waltertore
1016 posts
Feb 04, 2011
3:56 AM
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I own one and love it. I switched the tubes to Eurotubes but other than that it is bone stock. I use it for guitar but had to test it out for harp. I rarely overdub and play amplified harp, but I put these songs together playing all the instruments seperately. This is my first attempt at amplified harp in 25 or so years. I used a shure 57. The recording quality is good so you can at least hear the tone this thing can produce. So many of the youtube videos sound terrible. I would never base a purchase on most of what is out there. Walter
tore up and tone down
amplified harp boogie
amplified reed
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
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MN
47 posts
Feb 04, 2011
4:18 AM
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>>>"the pro junior is unexpensive but I heard a couple and it is not the tone that I want.."
I don't think you can hear someone else playing an amp and form a credible opinion on the amp's tone. There are far too many variables, the biggest one being the skill/style of the player. I'll bet dollars to donuts that if you heard [INSERT NAME OF GREAT PLAYER YOU DIG] blowing through a Pro Junior, you'd like the amp.
I've found the only way to tell for certain if you like a piece of gear is to use it, preferably in a gig situation.
Want to know what makes this quest even MORE frustrating? You might try out a piece of gear (amp or mic or even harp) and love it. But later on, as you learn and improve, you'll become a different player and you won't have the same opinion. You might learn to like a piece of gear. OR you might sell off something too soon, and later - as you improve - you'll regret the sale.
As a beginner, I had a Shure 520D and a Pro Junior. In time, I sold off both because I thought A) the mic was "too feedback prone," and B) that even with tube-subs, the PJ "wasn't loud enough" and had thin tone.
Well, fast-forward 10+ years, after lessons with some great players and a lot of work on my part, and I have little or no feedback issues with a bullet or any other mic, and I find that the PJ (which I no longer own, but have borrowed from the guy I sold it to) is plenty loud enough even with the stock tubes back in there.
The mic wasn't feedback prone, THE PLAYER was. The amp was fine; it was ME who wasn't loud enough and had thin tone.
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 6:08 AM
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hvyj
1220 posts
Feb 04, 2011
5:58 AM
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@5F6H: Sorry, but I just don't consider simply changing the BRAND of tubes to be a mod. I just pulled the stock tubes out and inserted the JJs. No re-biasing was necessary.
I put JJs in my Super Reverb Reissue, too, but I changed the tube configuration on that amp. Didn't change the configuration on the Princeton.
Maybe it's just semantics, but if I was going to call this a mod, I'd be considered delusional. But, I don't consider merely gapping harps to be customizing either. I don't have the skill or ability to personally mod an amp OR customize a harp.
@waltertore: Eurotubes is the vendor for tubes made by JJ Electronics ("JJs"). You wouldn't know it from their website but the owner, Bob Pletka, is pretty knowledgeable about tube substitutions/swaps to voice guitar amps for harp. He's a nice guy and very willing to take time to discuss and provide advice if you ask him.
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MN
48 posts
Feb 04, 2011
6:07 AM
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Yeah, Bob at Eurotubes is a great guy. Very helpful.
@MrVerylongusername .... Thanks. There are some very hard-earned (and expensive) lessons learned on this road.
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 6:11 AM
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waltertore
1017 posts
Feb 04, 2011
6:12 AM
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hvj: Thanks. I have been dealing with him for years and I agree he is a nice and knowledgable guy. I am leaving my princeton set up as stock because I use it for guitar and my harp is run off the vocal mic. These recordings I posted were a once in every 25 deal. I agree that way too people spend a wasted trip on searching for tone. It comes from decades of countless hours playing and gear is the second piece of the puzzle. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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Oisin
738 posts
Feb 04, 2011
6:15 AM
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Hey Walter those songs kick ass. You have a great amplified tone and should use it more in your tunes.
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Oisin
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hvyj
1222 posts
Feb 04, 2011
6:23 AM
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@waltertore: Well, until i read this thread, i thought I had left my PRRI stock, too, except for the tilt back legs.
Btw, if anyone is interested in installing the Fender 14" tilt back legs, besides the tilt back legs you will need a set of Fender metal amp corners and a set of Fender Sphinx Glides, both of which are available through Musicians Friend (and elsewhere) for a relatively low price.
You need the corners to protect the cabinet since the rear bottom corners of the amp will rest on the floor supporting the weight of the amp when the amp is tilted back. All Fender amps with tilt back legs have metal amp corners. Metal amp corners are not a bad idea anyway.
When you put the corners on, you have to take the little metal "feet" off the bottom of the amp or else the corners won't fit. The feet are just round metal tabs that have sharp jagged prong shaped edges that dig into the bottom of the cabinet to hold them on. Pry them off in order to put the amp corners on. Replace these "feet" with Fender Sphinx glides that are slightly larger, nicer feet that attach to the bottom of the amp with a screw that fits perfectly through the bottom screw hole on the Fender metal amp corner so that the same screw attaches the Sphinx Glide and the bottom of the amp corner to the cabinet. This also puts the Sphinx Glides in proper position on the bottom of the amp.
It's important to measure carefully when you attach the tilt back legs to the amp cabinet. I used my Fender Super Reverb Reissue for comparison to get the proper positioning. Actually, i had a friend of mine who is a finish carpenter do it. Properly positioning the mounting screws for the legs and the "stops" is very important to do this "mod" properly. You'd be surprised how much tilting back an amp effects tone.
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 6:50 AM
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waltertore
1018 posts
Feb 04, 2011
6:40 AM
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hvyj: I guess we all see stock differently :-) Personally I don't mess with harps, amps, guitars. I play them as they come out of the boxes. I changed out my tubes because the fender issued ones rattled and were tiny sounding. Otherwise I would have left them in.
Thanks Oisin! I use to play amplified back in the late 70's (tweed bassman, bullet) and enjoyed it until I got to helping Sonny Terry get around the NYC clubs when he played. Since then I have been pretty much consumed with the acoustic sound. Next time I get around a real band I will give the amplified a shot. But that may be another 25 years :-) Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 6:59 AM
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5F6H
525 posts
Feb 04, 2011
7:16 AM
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@ HYVJ: "@5F6H: Sorry, but I just don't consider simply changing the BRAND of tubes to be a mod. I just pulled the stock tubes out and inserted the JJs. No re-biasing was necessary."
Sure, I was playing devil's advocate to a degree, just showing that the "stock/mod" dividing line is somewhat more blurred that folks perceive - but anything that is changed, to affect the sound, that wasn't how it left the factory, is still a mod, irrespective of perspective (like I was saying, guys change things that don't require soldering, like tubes & speakers, but seem blind to the fact thay ARE still making changes).
What makes tubes, & subsequently amps, sound like they do is the voltages & currents that they see...changing power tubes alters 3 factors in the amp - B+ voltage/plate voltage, plate current & negative grid voltage...just like changing a resistor value in the bias supply (PRRI has a pot), but it's very unusual to get all 3 perameters the same from tube brand to tube brand. A tube isn't just "a component" either...it's a whole bunch of components interacting with each other...compared to changing a single resistor or a cap.
I'm getting OT a little because this doesn't pertain to the PRRI, but for instance I have seen tubes in the same amp vary by 40mA & plate voltage by up to 40vdc, just by changing brand of tubes, a pretty heavy duty mod in anyone's books. There are certain brands of tubes that can go in an amp and massively affect its character.
I'm aware that I'm overly sensitive in this respect, not gunning for you, you were just the catalyst.
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rharley5652
388 posts
Feb 04, 2011
1:47 PM
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5F6h,.
Thanks ,.
"Just showing that the "stock/mod" dividing line is somewhat more blurred that folks perceive - but anything that is changed, to affect the sound, that wasn't how it left the factory, is still a mod, irrespective of perspective (like I was saying, guys change things that don't require soldering, like tubes & speakers, but seem blind to the fact thay ARE still making changes).
What you say,. is what I meant by :
Your going to have to mod just about any Guitar Amp for Harp,.
Change that preamp tube ,.it's a mod in my book.
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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hvyj
1227 posts
Feb 04, 2011
2:04 PM
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OT: If you change the strings on a guitar are you modding the guitar? or does it depend on whether they mew strings are the same gauge as the stock strings?
Just curious...
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5F6H
527 posts
Feb 04, 2011
2:20 PM
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If you change the strings for something to specifically alter the tone of the guitar, then that's a mod/customisation. I know a guy who used to use 18 as the lightest string...no one who picked up his guitar at a jam thought of it as "stock"...in fact their exact thoughts were hard to determine through the expletives as they made futile attempts at bends...;-)
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harpwrench
442 posts
Feb 04, 2011
2:34 PM
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Diggin' your amped tone Walter!!
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Joe
www.spiersharmonicas.com
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waltertore
1024 posts
Feb 04, 2011
2:52 PM
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harpwrench: Thanks and coming from you I take this as a big compliment, especially that I havent done it in so long. Lately I have been thinking I would like to do it more. All I need is the right band behind me. Those days, for now at least, are not happening. Doing overdubs doesn't hold my interest enough to do it very often. I may try hooking a second mic up and taping a harp to it and run that through the amp with my 1 man band rig. You have inspired me! I am not sure how it will sound not cupped, but am going to work on setting up some sort of holder tonight. Thanks! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2011 2:54 PM
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bazzzzou
91 posts
Feb 05, 2011
1:01 PM
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did the princeton is louder than the pro junior?? before the feeback..
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hvyj
1231 posts
Feb 05, 2011
1:54 PM
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Never played through a Pro Jr., but i used to have a Blues Jr. which i sold in order to get my Princeton Reverb Reissue when they first came out. (No regrets about that.)
Anyway, the PRRI is AT LEAST as loud as a BJ and can definitely get louder before feedback than a BJ, if that gives you a reference point.
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waltertore
1031 posts
Feb 05, 2011
2:05 PM
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Here are a couple songs I recorded today with a shure 57 going into a PRRI. The guitar is also going through it - I overdubbed the keys and harp. I love this little amp. I have owned a real tweed bassman, every black face made, and a silver faced twin. I dig the PRRI more than any of them because it is light to carry, all the components are new, and it has killer reverb and tremelo. Those tweed, black faced amps are old. They will need work and continual work if you use them regularly. When I owned them they were still just regular old amps and still well within a healthy lifespan. I used a black face pro reverb for 11 years (200+ gigs a year) and it never quit on me. Once it lost volume and I looked in the back and one of the tubes had fallen out. Those amps were workhoreses and like the fender guitars of that era, basically indestructabile. Now they are past that for the most part save the few that were closet players for thier whole life and even those have wires, capacitors, etc, that are 45+ years old. Walter
going back to my younger days with the harp
can I love you just for tonight
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2011 2:14 PM
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strawwoodclaw
203 posts
Feb 05, 2011
6:53 PM
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bazzzou If you are after a new modern amp to use for harp David Barrett recommends Fender, Model: Super Champ XD (New), 10" speaker. There is a amp comparison on his web site with Dennis Gruenling Gary Smith & Dave Barrett they make all the amps sound good. the Super Champ XD sounded very good
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strawwoodclaw
204 posts
Feb 05, 2011
6:56 PM
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my freind had a Princeton reverb reissue I think it was from the 80s 90s but it sounded too trebly for harp .you could probably by a Harp Gear rock bottom for not much more
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Joe_L
1050 posts
Feb 06, 2011
5:34 PM
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I was at Barrett's Masterclass for that amp shootout. I dropped off a couple of amps. My Tweed Champ clone and a Mini Meat. The Super Champ XD sounded pretty good, but it paled in comparison to my Tweed Champ clone. it was funny to watch them look at amp like it was something abnormal.
There were a lot of amps that sounded better, but nothing else in that price range.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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HarpNinja
4118 posts
Aug 10, 2015
5:54 AM
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I got a used PRRI this past week. I haven't had much time with it. It came to me with Tung Sol RI 6V6 tubes, the stock Groove Tubes in the preamp, and a Weber DT-10 speaker.
Unfortunately, I only got to play it in a huge 33x18' room that was empty minus carpet - so a feedback trap.
I played it with both my SM58 and my bullet mic. Both sounded awesome, but feedback was definitely an issue. The tone was amazing, and I am very happy with that.
I was trying to get up to 4-5 on the volume, but either the room or part of the amp didn't like that so much. At that volume it was a little dirtier than I would have assumed with the 58, but I am way ok with that.
What really surprised me was how much I liked the bullet mic's tone...which was hotter and dirtier. Usually, the bottom three holes of the harp always sound too boxy, IMHO, with a bullet style mic. While still honkier and not as round as the 58, it sounded pretty good.
I have no interested in modding the amp other than preamp tubes. I do have the stock speaker if that would be less feedback prone?
Here is the speaker in there...http://www.tedweber.com/dt10
I think it has a huge and tight bottom end. I didn't think it was a dark tone at all, but he highs weren't piercing. The layout of my house is horrible for getting an idea of if an amp will feedback or not.
I have a noise gate I can try too, but will try to just use at home, but largely would like to just plug and play.
I did briefly try a RCA 5751 Commando in V1, but didn't notice a difference in volume before feedback.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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Kingley
3904 posts
Aug 10, 2015
9:43 AM
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Try the original speaker and see what you think. That's the only real way to tell. Also did you have treble or reverb on? I run mine with the bass on full, treble off or maybe up to 1.5 if I feel it needs it and I keep the reverb off most of the time. I run it completely stock and have no preoblem getting the amp up to 4-5 without feedback.
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HarpNinja
4119 posts
Aug 12, 2015
6:20 AM
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I put the original speaker back in and noticed the reverb wasn't working. I had an extra 12at7 and that didn't help. I think took the tank out to check it and put a different 12ax7 in v3. One of those two generally fixed the problem.
The stock speaker was the same volume before feedback, but has more upper mids, which gave it more cut and it was a more pronounced crunch.
I think a lot of harp players would have preferred the DT10 as it was warmer - similar to a Lil' Buddy or some of the warmer Webers, but I liked the crunch personally.
I don't have many tubes, and I noted a few broke, ugh, at some point. I only had a Mullard 12at7 to flip...a couple of 12dw7's that I thought were JJ 12ax7's, and a RCA 5751.
I looked at the Groove Tubes in the amp and a couple were technically relabled Sovtek 12axywc tubes, which work ok with harp.
So, basically, the amp is stock except the 12at7 tube, which is now NOS Mullard (well, I guess the 6v6 tubes are Tung Sol RI's the original owner subbed in). Unfortunately, I had a few gigs fall through due to my real world schedule and a club double booking, so I won't gig it soon. That also doesn't warrant spending more $ on tubes at this point.
At any rate, the amp sounds fantastic at home and feedback won't be an issue with the stock speaker. I don't see a need to tube down, switch the reverb (which was a Accutronics 6404 or something like that) which is pretty dark and useable, but another speaker, or use a pedal.
Basically, it is perfect for rock playing wiht my 58 and perfect for blues with my bullet. I was really suprised at how much I liked the bullet mic with the amp. With a tight cup it is crunch and dirty. Loose cup has a cleaner tone that is still full and strong.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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Barley Nectar
883 posts
Aug 12, 2015
10:58 PM
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Can't beat a good PR. I souped mine up, now it needs a big room. Lesson learned here, bad move. A buddy has a stock black face PR, right down to the 2 wire cord. I pluged my CM in and dimed V,T,B pots. Full band. That amp sounded freekin awesome!!!
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HarpNinja
4120 posts
Aug 13, 2015
7:27 AM
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I haven't determined if it is the stock tank or not (as it works way better for harp than I would have thought), but I am VERY impressed with the amp.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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Kingley
3906 posts
Aug 13, 2015
10:04 AM
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Can't beat a Princeton Reverb. They are superb amps for harp and sound great with guitar too.
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stinkbomb
3 posts
Nov 11, 2016
11:05 AM
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Hi peeps, sorry to drag up an old post but have just purchased myself a nice PRRI 68 with celestion speaker, and just wondering what sort of pedals you have before the amp. I do have a boss dm-2 delay which I thought I might try out. Also I see a few people say about turning the amp volume up and use the vc on the mic to control things, how do you get on with this way. Also what are people's favourite settings on the amp for that Chicago crunch sound. Many thanks Ian
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Joe_L
2676 posts
Nov 11, 2016
2:02 PM
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None. I would use no pedals.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Barley Nectar
1270 posts
Nov 11, 2016
3:57 PM
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I like some delay but usually turn it off for leads. Crunch, see my post just above. Don't know anything about that speaker though.
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John M G
87 posts
Nov 11, 2016
5:08 PM
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I'm running a stock SM 57 mic into a Lone Wolf Boogieman into my 65 PRRI.
I bought my PRRI on advice from this forum and I'm really happy with it.
I like the Boggieman very much with it's switchable delay and break plus the tone controls.
I did buy other pedals but so far haven't included any of them!
I did swap 2 of the 12AX7's for AT's but have gone back to the AX's, I am thinking of maybe swapping out just the first pre amp AX to reduce the volume control sensitivity a bit.
I also swapped out the Jensen CR10 speaker for an Eminence Li'l Buddy. The Eminence is probably well broken in now and I've been wanting to swap back the CR10 for a comparison but haven't got round to it yet.
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hvyj
3161 posts
Nov 11, 2016
6:15 PM
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Don't have any experience with the '68 but I do have a PRRI. Assuming you have not modified the amp, the best way to get crunch is direct in with no pedals. Plug the mic into the #2 input. Dime the bass and 0 the treble and get the volume up over 6 or higher and attenuate the input signal with a VC on your mic to control feedback. You will want to either put tilt back legs on the amp or get it up off the floor on a stand or a chair so it won't sound boxy with tha bass cranked up so high. BUT if you've upgraded the speaker, you may not need such extreme settings on the tone controls. A Shure 545 is a symbiotic match with this amp.
Btw, the tube reverb on the amp sounds great--better than (or at least as good as) any delay pedal. But the stock tubes are very harsh sounding. Maybe ok for guitar, but for harp I prefer JJs.
As far as tube swaps that will not degrade tone, try putting an ECC 823 in V4. This is a backwards 12D/W7 (aka ECC832) with unbalanced triodes that will give you the equivalent of a 12AU7 for the phase inverter while keeping the vibrato driver as a 12AX7.
Another swap you might consider is a 5751 in V1, but I think that tends to degrade tone a little.
A pedal I've been using lately is the J Rockett BLUE NOTE TOUR. It's a sort of an overdrive. I got it thinking it would give me distortion on demand. It doesn't. But what it does do is fatten the tone in a very cool way that responds wonderfully to technique and you can get nice texture out of it to the point of distortion if your throat and mic handling techniques are good. BUT you really have to spend time dialing this pedal in. What it does is very subtle and has to be dialed in just right and very differently for different amps. I've used the BLUE NOTE TOUR with my PRRI recently and when I do I'll also use a TC ELECTRONIC FLASHBACK DELAY. But I most often use this amp with no pedals at all and always with a 545 Ultimate. Great amp!
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 11, 2016 8:25 PM
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