I'm just about to buy a Marine Band Crossover, recommended by the excellent Captain Bliss. Before I press the button, could someone explain what compromised tuning is and whether it's something I need to be concerned with? I'm a blues player with not much musical theory so please go easy with the technicalities.
Most harmonicas you've probably ever played were compromise tuning (Golden Melodies, and Suzuki Promasters/Hammonds are the only ones I can think of that are Equal Tuned). Basically, instead of tuning each reed to exactly and A or a B or a C#, each reed is detuned slightly to make the chords sound better together. If you're a straight ahead blues player, I'd say go with a compromise tuning.
when you tune an instrument, you can make all the musical 'gaps' between notes the same (Equal temperament) or you can tweak them so that the most important intervals sound sweet (just intonation). Compromise tuning is yet another option that tries to make the chords sweet whilst not letting the notes sound too flat. It is perfect for a blues player.
I like the Crossover tuning. I am pretty hardcore ET myself, but if it is good enough for Steve Baker, than it is too good for me, lol. Worth playing!
One observation on the dozen or so Crossovers I've seen lately...the combs are generally pretty flat...maybe even surprisingly so. However, depending on the key often times, the rivets on the draw plate create a little bit of daylight between the plate and comb. This is pretty common on most MB harps with at least the 1 draw.
They must have lacqured the comb differently over time. Some of them seem glossier than others. The top and bottom of the combs often have a bit of the finish on them too. I wouldn't be too worried about it. While it can easily be sanded to have no finish or sanded and refinished, I usually don't do much to mod the comb beyond flat sanding as to not disrupt the Hohner stamped on the back.
They are nice harps, double true if you are comfortable gapping your own harps. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/23/11
Yeah nick they are very nice harps. I think you'll like it. As far as the tuning goes. I think thats one of those things where you need to try a few differently tuned harps to see what you like. Alot of harps today are comprimised tunings. I understand why they do it, but I think (or I should say IMO) harps are easier to use if they are either Ji or ET tuned. Retuning is very easy and there are plenty of youtube vids about it. Crossovers are easy to take apart and put together also.
actually, a Crossover has a tuning that is sorta between Compromised and Equal Tuning.
short answer for Compromised Tuning.
the 2, 5, and 8 blow reeds and the 3, 5, 7, and 9 draw reeds are tuned a little flatter than the other reeds. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
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Last Edited by on May 09, 2012 2:15 PM
@myverylongusername Great video. So it makes sense. Pure just tuning just lays there. Tempered tuning creates a slight beat between the interval notes - I guess this is similar to playing a single note straight or using vibrato. In fact, from the patterns in the video, I was interested to note that the frequency beating between the different intervals in tempered tuning was just about what you would expect from vibrato. Could it be that our brains realize that perfect intervals do not occur in nature and that a very slight mis-tuning and therefore, beating between interval notes in a cord sounds more natural (better)? But why then does a single note followed by another which is clearly sharp or flat make us go "yuck!? Humm. Food for thought.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2012 4:25 PM
I think the point is that in tempered tuning, two notes together just don't sound as good - add tube distortion and it gets a lot worse.
ET works for me because I prefer a cleaner tone, I don't play a lot of chuggy stuff, but when I do I can live with the beating which really isn't that bad.
Amplifying a harp with a tube amp for a gritty "Chicago" tone really exaggerates the harsher harmonics produced by the beating though. Distorted ET harp is not so good. In that scenario just and compromise win every time.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2012 4:46 PM
When playing with a band, I much prefer ET or the Crossover compromise.
This is mostly the case as the other instruments aren't tuned to compromise, but rather ET. I can't think of too many examples of a harp player relying primarily on chords to play against the band.
I played ET for years and years until switching to the XO tuning. I'll take some beating chords over sounding flat against the band any day.
The notion that chords on a compromise tuned harp don't beat is BS. I'm a long time devoted ET player. Earlier this year i bought a couple of MBDs (which are compromise tuned like MBs) to try out, and you know what? The chords beat.
Harps tuned to a comprimise tuning of any sort will beat, but the further they're tuned away from ET, the less they will beat. The compromise tuning that will beat the LEAST are Seydels, which is essentially 19LJI, and the one note separating it from 19LJI from the comprimise is 5 & 9 draw, and in their comprimise tuning, those two are tuned 2 cents flat, wheras in 19LJI, those two would be tuned 1.5 cents sharp. On most comprimise tunings, the chords will beat, but how much, again depens how much closer or further away from ET tuning it is. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Beating or no beating, I've never perceived any musical advantage in playing an instrument with notes that are out of tune with the rest of the band just so you can sound more in tune with yourself when you play chords. Of course, this assumes one is playing with other musicians. For someone who plays alone or with pre-recorded back-up tracks it doesn't make any difference.
if what you say is true then every single diatonic player of any stripe who plays/played compromised/7LJI/19LJI harmonicas for the last 100 years is out of tune.
the discography of out of tune players is completely enormous. :) ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Well, I dunno--I'm talking about what works best for me.
But, on the other hand, IMHO, there are a certain significant number of classic recordings where the intonation of the harp doesn't sound all that musically well intonated to my ear. But that's so common, a lot of listeners have been acculturated to think that's how a harmonica is SUPPOSED to sound, so they are not bothered by it and a lot of harmonica players will even try to imitate that sound. But I suspect that may also be a big part of why such a significant proportion of professional musicians have prejudices against harmonica in general.
But, I guess it all comes down to how the particualar harmonica player WANTS to sound, and what the player thinks a harmonica SHOULD sound like. Playing style and technique may also have something to do with it. Personally, i have definite opinions about what works best for me and my style of play when playing with the other musicians i perform with. Of course, YMMV.
Harp related or not, there are a ton of out of tune recordings. For example, the whole Layla album. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
also of interest are equal tempered harmonicas. they tend to have slightly flat 3rds and 7ths.-normally by a couple of cents. the tuning specs of Hohners Golden Melody will bear this out. though not JI in any sense of the meaning, certain notes are flatter than others. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
I, for one, think that the whole "blue third", you know, slightly flat third not all the way down to the half step bend, sound just flat off, period... when I play it myself! When I hear real players play it, it sounds like magic music. Kindof...
What say ye all? Hvyj? I bet you bend the third (in 2:nd pos) to perfect halfstep bend. Not a cent off!
On that topic, or not, I agree that a lot of influential recordings are somewhat off pitch. I feel that Armstrong's trumpet intro to Summertime is more than a bit off pitch but isn't that a part of what makes it a really great PHRASE? ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Not all the instruments let you bend to a blue third by harmonica standards.
IMO, good harp players play their bends relative to the band. If you have solid intonation to begin with, and the band is in tune, it isn't hard to hit the note in good relative pitch.
I do think that if certain notes are too flat to begin with it is harder to keep paces with the rest of the band. I only notice this someone is playing certain tones in certain tunings. For example, 7Limit sounds SO flat to me.
A lot of times, if you are sticking to a tuning that fits a genre and scale choice well, it is no biggie. For example, compromise tunings in 2nd. However, I've felt that a flat 5 draw, for example, sounds WAY too minor in 3rd position for my style.
I love the irony of guys defending the merits of compromise tuning schemes that put notes way out of concert pitch. Really, I don't care as if I don't like what I am hearing, I flip the tune, leave the club etc, so totally to each his own. However, the first "dis" against overblowing is that they sound out of tune.
A lot of flat OBs are more in tune than blues-type bends on just and compromise harps. I actually like 19LI a lot, same with the Seydel tuning on 1847's, but 7LI does nothing for me and I know I am always "safe" in position playing with a harp closer to ET.
My 12 harps for standard keys are all XO or ET. My low tuned harps are all compromise. I am by no means saying chords and just tuning don't have their place. I just think you have to decide what works for you.
Jason Ricci has played ET for a long time - I know he uses 19LI customs too - like on the Big Al clip, and I don't recall it being a big deal. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
@MP: All my GMs are custom and tuned to A442 pure ET. My backup set are Suzuki Hammonds. Neither my custom GMs nor my Hammonds have flat 7ths. On both sets the draw 3 is inevitably a little flat, but the other second position 3rd (draw 7) is NOT flat. So, what you are saying may be accurate, but it's not true for the harps i use for performance.
Btw, when I was referring to intonation of harp on classic recordings, I was referring to intonation relative to the rest of the band--not to absolute pitch.
@Pistolcat: Yeah, being a multiple position player, i like to think I've gotten pretty good at hitting all available bends accurately on pitch, which, btw, is a helluva lot easier to do if the harp is accurately tuned to pure ET. For example, I experience a little difficulty hitting the 3 draw whole step bend dead on pitch on an MBD--no problem on a Crossover or on my custom GMs, though.
The blue note thing--the blue third and the harmonic 7th (not quite flat 3rd and flatter than flat 7th) is pretty interesting. I agree with what you are saying in general, but it depends on what style of blues you are playing. If you hit a blue third on the I chord on the right material at just the right time, that note really sings. If you hit a blues seventh or harmonic seventh (bent draw 5 in second position) on the right material at just the right time, it sounds very fat and richly harmonic. But, i agree that these artifacts are more often attempted than they are played well enough to sound good. But done correctly at the right moment on the right type of material -- wow! they really work well. But a lot of harp players are just bending the living shit out of anything that will bend which loses the effect, and, yeah, a whole lot of the time playing a true minor third sounds better and more musical than a blue third anyway--but done right, on the right material at the right time, a blue third makes a powerful artistic statement.
Which gets back to my original point. How do you bend accurately to a blue third (quarter tone flat 3rd) if the reed you are bending is tuned flat to begin with? Lately I've been playing in a duo doing a lot of Delta blues material (1 and 2 chord stuff) where I've got to hit bends dead on in order to carry the melody lines which is a WHOLE LOT EASIER to do using ET harps because you have an accurate starting point (concert pitch) for hitting the bends you need to target. Btw, a whole lot of that Delta stuff is minor pentatonic scale--NOT blues scale.
I had a recent flirtation with MBDs and Crossovers out of the misguided idea that those compromise tuned harps might be better for playing Delta blues material. WRONG! I found out that whether i am playing traditional Delta blues material or more contemporary material, it's a WHOLE LOT EASIER to bend accurately to pitch (whatever the target pitch may be) using ET harps. The MBDs and Crossovers are nice harps, though, and fun to play--just not as useful for actual performance.
Last Edited by on May 10, 2012 4:42 PM
One thing I want to make sure I mention, is that there are three main tunings from the factories. Equal - think piano Just - chords sound better. The thirds of the chords are usually a little flat, this is 2 blow, 5 blow, 8 blow. 3 draw is the third of the main draw chord and it's a little flat. The third of the 4-6 draw chord (also the 7th of the 1-4 draw chord) is really flat. Compromise - is more like just tuning, only the flats aren't as flat.
Even among the factories, there's another variable, reference pitch. Equal's inspiration is kind of obvious, it's basically what we consider single notes to be in tune in Western Music. Just was the standard tuning of the 19th Century, was designed for first position, but it is more versatile than that. Compromise was a way to make a more "in-tune" just intonation.
But I want to make sure I say that there are a helluva lot more ways to tune a harmonica than those three - and I'm not just talking about 7-limit, 19-limit Just, etc. Brad Harrison had his own scheme on his customs and the B-rad that didn't look like those three above, I'm sure most customizers have their own way of tuning. Probably everybody has come up with their own intonation scheme, based on what pleases their ear. I've got my own intonation scheme I use on my customs. I'm usually very open about stuff, but that's one of the things that I've kept to myself. There are so many different ways to tune a chord. You don't have to tune both reedplates to the same reference pitch. There is a whole world to experiment with.
it appears harmonica companies are getting rich selling out of tune instruments. they've been doing it for years! how long are we gonna put up with it?! :)
"EASIER to do using ET harps because you have an accurate starting point (concert pitch)"
actually no, concert pitch is A440 and A441 in parts of Europe. the average harp is A442 the Crossover A443, Seydel is A444 or 445. can't remember but none are concert pitch.
you like ET because you're a single note multiple position player sans OBs, and are most likely spare on chording. also NO choo choo trains! which i found hysterical.:) i can see how a flatted 5 hole blow or draw would bug you. it's not like you can bend them up to pitch in your style.
i'm just playing the devils advocate because of what i perceive to be a wholesale dismissal of extremely well thought out mathematical tuning formulas that have been in place since Pythagoras to present day. rather than trying to figure out pat missin or richard sleighs explanations of JI i would go to wikipedia. you would be surprised at the number of composers who specify various JI tunings for their compositions. caveat- yes Compromise tuning and Crossover tuning are new.
you can't throw out the baby with the bath water. chuck berry was notoriously out of tune. the great johnny shines will make you wince. the list goes on.
but, a good harmonica player, in JI, Compromise, or ET will manage just fine staying in tune. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
MP sez: "you like ET because you're a single note multiple position player sans OBs, and are most likely spare on chording. also NO choo choo trains! which i found hysterical.:) i can see how a flatted 5 hole blow or draw would bug you. it's not like you can bend them up to pitch in your style."
Yep. That's a pretty accurate assessment. And i do think a flat 5 draw and 5 blow and flat 2 blow absolutely SOUND LIKE SHIT!!!! (especially the flat 5 draw).
And you're right, I don't do a lot of chording. But, of course I do some. I think the chords on an MBD sound sing-songy. i think the chords on a Crossover as well as the chords on my custom GMs and my Hammonds sound fatter.
But, yeah, the choo-choo train thing ain't my bag.
You know much more about tuning than i do, but a harp tuned to A442 puts me in very good tune with other musicians tuned to A440. So, whether or not that is technically concert pitch, it does give me a consistent reference point for intonation of bends relative to the rest of of the band. Interestingly, in a live performance situation, i find that i have to bend a little deeper to intonate properly than i would working against just a tuner. i dunno if this is because of the A442 tuning of my harps or what, but I've got to take the bends a little deeper to be on pitch playing in a live performance setting.
I think the hardest bend to hit with consistent accuracy is the 3 draw half step because it's so easy to take that bend down too far and get below pitch.And that's a real important bend in just about every commonly used position (3b in 2d, 7b in 1st, 6b in 3rd, 5b in 5th, perfect 4th in 12th).
Last Edited by on May 10, 2012 7:58 PM
Locally there has been some discussion about a weekly jam where the host band tunes to Eb, lol.
Now THAT seems like a dumb way to go about tuning...(because it is a jam, and not that tuning down is a bad thing). ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Mike, that Eb tuning became all the rage because of one man who tuned that way and influenced a kajillion guitarists...Stevie Ray Vaughan. I've seen guitarists come up at a jam and try to get everyone else to tune down 1/2 step just because they do it. Easy enough for us harpites:that's why I carry a whole keyset with me. ---------- Todd L. Greene
hey hvyj, morning! " I think the hardest bend to hit with consistent accuracy is the 3 draw half step because it's so easy to take that bend down too far and get below pitch.And that's a real important bend in just about every commonly used position (3b in 2d, 7b in 1st, 6b in 3rd, 5b in 5th, perfect 4th in 12th)."
i think so too- even though you know more about position playing than i do the point stands. you really gotta watch out that 3 doesn't sound airy on the first half step. when i adjust a harp that three hole is one of the first places i go...if not the first.
have a good day. mark ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
"you really gotta watch out that 3 doesn't sound airy on the first half step."
Yeah, so true. This is one of the reasons I spend $ on custom harps--makes it easier to achieve consistent precision on the difficult bends.
Multiple position playing is NBD--it's just playing the same harp in different keys. Musicians who play other instruments do it all the time. You just have to know which notes are where on the instrument. I'm surprised that so many people think it's difficult because it's not.
hvyj, "Musicians who play other instruments do it all the time. You just have to know which notes are where on the instrument."
yeah, but most players don't put in the effort. i think this is due to lack of interest. since i take harps apart all the time i can rattle off which notes are which and counting a circle of 5ths determine the root/tonic of any position.
but, i still have my habits-due to lack of interest i suspect- i know the first three positions cold and take my chromatic with me. i'll hazard 4th and 5th(thanks to your input) when i play with this one guitarist though. sometimes it works!
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Well, there's a couple of other things that give some players problems with positions above third: 1) you don't have many chords that will work, and in some positions you don't have ANY. Some players don't know what to do if they can't chug or make like a choo-choo train. 2) You can't bend randomly or you will go out of key--for multiple position playing you need to know what you have to bend, what you can't bend and for the most part you pretty much need to bend accurately to pitch. Some players just bend the living hell out of whatever draw notes they can bend which won't work playing multiple positions since that sort of undisciplined bending will take you out of key.
Figuring out how to play 5th position changed my musical world. After i did that, I became able to play all sorts of material i could never play on a diatonic before which allowed me to start developing into a musician instead of just being a harmonica player--or at least that's how i like to think of it. But there's a whole lot more you need to know and keep track of if you are playing a chrom.
Last Edited by on May 11, 2012 2:02 PM
Another couple of observations on compromise tuning.
I played compromise tuned Hohners for years, i switched to Suzuki Hammonds (ET) 4 or 5 years ago. You know what? After about a month of regular playing my ear began to improve noticeably. It was remarkable to hear 7b (D5, 2d pos.) at proper pitch--I'd been playing that note flat for so long (since it's tuned flat on Hohners), i never actually learned what that note was supposed to sound like, which threw my intonation of the 2D** bend off as well. After I started playing ET and HEARING all the notes at proper pitch, my playing got a whole lot more musical.
Today, i was sitting around practicing fifth position blues scale on my custom GMs. this requires me to hit 3D** 3D* 3D. for me, hitting those bends accurately on my GMs or on a crossover is NBD. BUT, i CANNOT intonate those bends with consistent accuracy on an MBD. My technique is fine BUT the intonation of the harp is off. How the f**k is someone supposed to hit 3D* and 3D** accurately on a reed that's tuned flat?????
i used to sort of chuckle at players who would post that the 3D** is a technically difficult bend to hit since it's not--but, you know, on a compromise tuned harp, it sure IS tough to intonate that bend properly.
So...I don't find compromise tuning particularly musical or particularly useful.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 2:44 PM
" My technique is fine BUT the intonation of the harp is off. How the f**k is someone supposed to hit 3D* and 3D** accurately on a reed that's tuned flat?????" Your technique is NOT fine then-I can hit those 3 1/2 and double bends on any brand harp-and ANY key.
" It was remarkable to hear 7b (D5, 2d pos.) at proper pitch--I'd been playing that note flat for so long (since it's tuned flat on Hohners)," I find that odd-if you play 5th postion as much as you say you do,that is NOT a note used when playing in 5th position.
@tmf714: No, D5 is not a note used playing fifth position, but it IS a very important note in second position and i use second position more than i use fifth. Probably use second more than any other position and always have.
Maybe with more practice my technique will develop better, but at the present time. i find it easier to intonate those bends accurately on ET harps. i can hit them on any harp, in any key, i just find it easier to hit them ACCURATELY AT PROPER PITCH on an ET harp or a crossover. But, maybe some day I'll get to be as good as you are, if i work at adjusting my technique to compensate for different tunings. if i did that, i might do better, but I'm not particularly motivated to spend time doing that.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 4:02 PM
RE- ET tuned harmonicas. GMs are A442. concert pitch is A440 which is two hertz below A442. one hertz=4 cents approximately. so, 8 cents above concert pitch. this translates to a 442 harp being 6-8 cents sharp depending on the note. interesting.
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
@MP; True, but doesn't the pitch of the harp depress under normal breath pressure as you play, so that a harp tuned slightly sharp will sound more-or-less in tune under normal playing conditions? I dunno, but that's been my understanding--is that wrong?
In the OP MagicNick said that he is a blues player. He asked about compromised tuning. Many answers were given that well explained the different intonations. He is trying a Crossover. It should be a good choice for him.
I believe that most experienced players have tried a variety of harmonicas over time, and have arrived at the intonation (and tuning) that they prefer for their particular musical purposes and tastes. Some, including myself, still choose different intonation and tunings of harps for different types of music. I would be unlikely to use just intonation except in solo performance or heavy traditional blues. If I am playing country or blues in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, I would use compromise, because I do shift from single notes to chords. Jazz I would likely go back to equal intonation if I noticed flattened notes clashing.
Most blues has traditionally been played on just or compromised intonation harmonicas. MagicNick should be fine with what he bought. He can always try other intonations as he goes down the road on his musical journey.
There is not a right or wrong answer. I have known guitar players that adjust their tuning based on the key they are playing. It just comes down to finding what you like. ----------
oh, that's very true hvyj. as i tune every single day i have a handle on how much air pressure it takes to flat notes. but this pressure obviously varies from player to player. i think this is why Seydel goes all the way up to 444? pretty sure it's at least 444.
i heard tell that howard levy can play a 440 harp and actually stay in 440. it sounds apocryphal to me though.
now, every once in awhile i come across a player with your complaint about compromise tuning. every time, without fail, it is the 5 blow and 5 draw( both -12 cents). the 2 blow you hate is also -12. this puts them at 339 BUT.. the tuner is calibrated to 442 and i'm in over my head.
now, michaelandrewlo posted a transcript of a conversation he had with Buddha here on MBH shortly after Chris passed away.
in the transcript Buddha claimed to tune his harps-personal ones i'm sure- to A438. was he messin' with michaels head? if so, what for? did he know he was being taped and decided to tell a whopper cuz it was funny? anyway:)
438 is -8 cents or two hertz below concert pitch. now what?:0)
Edit: as i am going by memory it's possible Buddha said 439. Edited again thanks to MVLUN---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
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Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 7:09 PM
yeah, yah got me. big ooops!i'm changing it now. 438 or 439 depending on what he said. just looked around on the forum search and can't find the conversation. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
I attended a Lee Oskar workshop this summer, and he said he is making a small change to the tuning of LO harps, making them a little more compromise.
He said that as soon as you hit a note on the harmonica, you make it a little flat. He said the opposite is true for guitar players - they tune a little a flat because when they hit a note, it's instantly a little sharp.
So, he is making the notes on the LO harps a little more sharp, so when you hit a note and make it a little flat, it will be more accurate.
I raised my hand at the workshop and said, "Don't change it too much!" He assured me it will be a small change.
Not sure if there will be an official announcement about this, or a whole new line of harps. Seems like there will now be the "old" Lee Oskars, and the "new" Lee Oskars, and I don't think we'll be able to tell from the model names of the harps, just how they sound. ----------
