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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Question: tube amp vs P.A.
Question: tube amp vs P.A.
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Earwax
15 posts
Jan 08, 2011
2:11 PM
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Please somebody tell me why I need a tube amp in 2011.
Is it really better than a powered P.A. speaker with an EQ, and maybe an effects unit?
When I play through the P.A through my boss br600 with vintage effects, fireball mic,I sound like a tube amp. but better I think. (I have 2 750 watt powered PA speakers by Yorkville nx750p)
So why in this day and age would a harp player want a small tube amp?
Is the tube amp still superior these days? I have never owned one before. But they cost a fortune, and only sound decent for harmonicas and some guitars.
Is it a traditional thing? What am I missing? Anybody?
Thanks in advance.
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PaulM
76 posts
Jan 08, 2011
2:29 PM
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I too play through the PA, but have a small amp for the woodshed and believe it would be good for a small jam, as long as there's no drummer. I admit that I would love to own a great harp amp, but I can't justify it at this point. Maybe when I get better, I'll change my opinion.
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Earwax
16 posts
Jan 08, 2011
2:35 PM
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That makes sense Paul for a woodshed I guess. And I hear ya about the drummer thing:)
I guess what I am wondering, is what advantages does a tube amp have over a small pa or normal amp when digital effects are applied?
10 years ago, you needed the tube amp for the sound.
Does anyone here believe that the best tube amp in the world will always sound better than my equipment, or similar gear?
Just for fun, I would bet 10 bucks that the best tube amp out there can no longer compete with solid state amp technology combined with cosm effects.
Anyone wanna wager for fun? If its not allowed, forget the money, I just want to hear some professional players opinions, or someone more gear oriented than I am.
Thanks for considering my opinion.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 3:08 PM
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bonedog569
196 posts
Jan 08, 2011
2:53 PM
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No you don't "need one". If your rig works for you - then it works. If you like how you sound - and you and your audience can hear the harp without major feedback issues - then I'd say you are golden.
However - - An amp simulator is not going to be exactly the same as a tube amp. A small tube amp can give you sustain, compression and good sounding distortion in a small portable package. Easier to shlep around than a PA. If you know what you are looking for , you don't have to spend more than 2- 300 bucks for a low power vintage amp.
There is also this cheap hand wired in China amp some are starting to use with good results for the harp - the VHT . I think that's around two bills.
I am not a purist however, and some digital fx units and the amp sims in Apple Logic software , can sound really good. Playing 'clean' direct into a PA can allso be really good - it worked for Sonny Boy II and many others after all.
At a jam this last monday I brought my fx unit ( A Yamaha Magic Stomp II) without any amp and ran that into the PA. There was another harp player there who had shlepped his Sonny Jr amp. At the first break after I played he came up to see what I was using because he liked the sound I was getting and would love to travel lighter.
A little later my mic cord crapped out and I had a chance to use the Sonny Jr. - then after he left, went direct into a PA mic. clean.
The funny thing is - going through the PA direct I could hear myself the clearest by far, - and did not really miss the 'grit' or crunch. Id'd say it was my best playing that night.
I love futzing with and collecting old tube amps (when I see a bargain and have some coin in my pocket). But I love it for the coolness factor, -having something old that still works well and sounds really cool. I also like learning about the electronics and built one tube amp myself.
The other option; - some players actually like solid state amps. Lee Oskar and Buddha to name two. Not tradtional blues players per-se, and niether afraid to develope their own sound. We don't all have to sound exactly like Little Walter.
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Earwax
17 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:03 PM
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Bonedog569,
Thanks for that post.
Funny thing, I too have a magic stomp. It worked good, but when I first used cosm effects, I gave it to a friend and never looked back.
My 8 track digital recorder br600 has some really neat studio compression and effects, and I am now seeing that cosm effects are yesterdays technology.
But man, lemme tell you I sound better than I reaLLY AM when using those cosm effects. And my tone sounds way better than anything I have seen on any youtube video. Mind you I said my tone, not my music. This isn't me bragging about me, but bragging about digital effects.
But I got some good stuff from your post. I would love to hear others opinions, including Mr. Gussow's if he wishes to share it with us.
I don't have too much info to offer this forum yet, but this might be a biggie if nobody's tube amp can compete anymore.
I guess if I was old school, I would stay old school. But this is a very fun time to be alive as a musician, and the harmonica can do some wild things.
My br-600 has 100's of effects, they are all great, and the stuff on the shelves this year is supposed to be 20 times better.
Something to think about guys?
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bonedog569
197 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:12 PM
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Oh - I forgot to mention ---- I normally run my Yamaha fx into my tube amps for the delay and reverb - and a little extra drive - so I am actualy going vintage and hi-tech at the same time. I love what I get that way - though I'm sure some purests will question my approach.
I am planning to do some videos recording my amp / mic / fx rigs - but my recent youtubes; White Chrismas, Summertime and Amazing Grace are all done via a JT30 direct into my computer interface with the Logic amp sim. set on vintage tweed - plus a little reverb & delay. It is easy and I actually really get off on the sound I get through the headphones - and for me, -getting off on the sound is what it's about.
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bonedog569
198 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:14 PM
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darn - I guess I'm falling behind - What are cosm fx ?
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Littoral
237 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:23 PM
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No. Or yes, whatever means a tube amp is better. I'm willing to say I could be wrong but I doubt it, meaning the $10 bet is on. One giant issue is that you still have to have a decent PA and (can-o-worms) somebody who knows how to run it. Those variables aside I still like having control of my sound -all of it. I do have 100% awesome amps though, and that helps. Feel it in the floor. I'm guessing porn comes in HD or even blu-ray-don't honestly know- but I 'd bet it'll never be better than real sex.
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Earwax
18 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:29 PM
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I don't mean to sound shitty at all.
But cosm effects will make you forget about simple delays and reverbs Bonedog569.
You can make your music sound like it is being played on an old 45 record. or any other time in history.
You can make your music sound like any amp or compression, or echo's or chimpmunk voice, or 1000's of other settings that blow your mind away.
I play harp with an alien voice setting, and it makes me sound like a spaceship or something. In a good way.
Youtube cosm effects, and check it out. I bought my unit 2 years ago. Mine is a Boss br-600 and its cheap.
Last month I bought a korg wavedrum. WOW!!!!!!!!
The future is here now, and there is not enough time to enjoy all of these studio effects. I personally think the day of the tube amp is done.
But, I don't think all pros will change, nor do I think they need to. But if they might.:) If they went down to guitar center and tried the new stuff.
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Earwax
19 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:37 PM
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Littoral,
Audix fireball mic has volume control. Boss br-600 sits by my feet where I change settings on the fly with my big toe. All while recording my harp or the entire band.
I don't trust sound board guys (remember I'm a sax player 1st) You would be surprised I think at how much control you can take back from sound board guy.
Cosm effects also has built in eq, and compression.
Control yourself. Or run the risk of some clown out there messing you up, because he thinks you should sound different.
Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
on a side note, has anyone ever been swallowed up on stage by loud guitars and drums? Happens to me all the time, which is why I use other gear.
***edit***
I should mention that my speakers are used as monitors, then sent to main P.A. which lets me deal with loud guitars turning up on me as well as heavy handed drummers from time to time.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 3:44 PM
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hvyj
1020 posts
Jan 08, 2011
4:12 PM
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Use the set up that makes you sound the way YOU want to sound.
In general, i think one gets a somewhat heavier tone from an amp as compared to a PA, whether the amp is a tube amp or not but, personally, I find i can get a very acceptable tone through a PA. There's nothing magic or special about a tube amp, IMHO.
In my experience, it is the choice of mic that is the most important variable in any amplification set up. So long as i can use my mic of choice, I am fine going through the PA...or one of my tube amps...or my solid state amp..with or without pedal board effects. If i've got a decent mic, I pretty much sound like me no matter what I'm playing through. I like a little reverb or delay, though, since I prefer not to play dry.
All things being equal, I think multieffects units generally sound better into a PA and pedals generally sound better into an amp. But, of course, there are exceptions.
Going through the PA keeps things simple and certainly eliminates any volume problems. After all, it's the biggest amp in the room.
I'm more fussy about microphones...I can't get decent articulation from most bullet mics, and I do prefer using a mic that has proximity effect.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 5:29 PM
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Earwax
20 posts
Jan 08, 2011
4:16 PM
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hvyj,
I can totally dig what you and Bonedog569 are saying.
What mic is your weapon of choice?
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 4:17 PM
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hvyj
1021 posts
Jan 08, 2011
4:25 PM
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These days, I use a use a low-z 545 Ultimate whether I'm playing into a PA or any of my amps (or anyone else's amp if I have that option). Obviously, I need to use an IMT when i go into an amp.
i have sometimes also carried an Audix Fireball V to use in situations where the music required a super clean non-electric sound. But lately, I've pretty much been using the 545 Ultimate for everything. Very versatile mic and a great harp mic, IMHO. Btw, the volume control is useful for several purposes.
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hvyj
1022 posts
Jan 08, 2011
4:59 PM
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True story: i was at an open stage jam earlier this week and there was anther harp player playing a green bullet into the board through a Harp Commander III. Really nice guy. He offered to let me use his rig, but I didn't want to use a bullet mic. So he says I can plug my mic into the lo z input of the Harp Commander. I did. Nice tone.
Then when I start to play, the guitar player who was called up got REALLY LOUD. I turned up the VC on the Harp Commander but just could not get any cut--I was buried by the guitar.
So, next tune I unplugged from the HC, went direct into the PA board, pumped the mids, rolled off the highs a little and gave myself some reverb. Tone was fine and i got all the volume and cut I needed to compete with the too loud guitar player.
Never used a Harp Commander before. The HC seems to be an ill conceived toy. Maybe it's an ok direct box for a bullet mic, but for a modern high quality PA mic (like my Shure 545 Ultimate), it just degrades performance. Solution: Going direct into the board.
[To be fair, maybe there was some setting or dial on the HC that I didn't know about which may have improved its performance. But I got substantially equivalent or better tone just going direct into the board and adjusting the EQ, so why bother screwing around with another device anyway?]
I think the obsession with tube amps and harp specific toys like the HC comes from harp players who want distortion because they think it gives them tone. Electric/amplified tone is created by the player and how he handles the mic. I mean, you've got to know how to adjust the settings on whatever you are playing though, but for the overwhelming most part all the rest of it is just icing on the cake.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 5:22 PM
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MrVerylongusername
1466 posts
Jan 08, 2011
6:21 PM
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Just got back from gigging (it's 2am in Blighty) Tonight I used a Behringer active DI with amp modelling, my EH Holy Grail and a Superlux mic. It sounded great to me, the soundman and the rest of the band. I just asked for a touch of harp in the IEM mix (as lead singer I'd be using the in-ears anyway - the whole band went wedge free 4 years ago and hasn't look back)
I have a 90s RI Bassman and a Shure 520D retrofitted with a 70s white label CM. I can get good tone out of that setup, but I'm sick of heaving a deadweight around and worrying about mics going 'walkabout' in some of the less salubrious venues we play. The bassman is only really worth it for outdoor and really big venues.
My current gigging rig cost me £140 and sounds good enough for me and the audience seems to like it too. (Got complimented tonight - always nice).
I think amp modellers are fine.
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Joe_L
969 posts
Jan 08, 2011
6:34 PM
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Earwax - It sounds like your mind is already made up, so why bother asking the question?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Train-train
30 posts
Jan 08, 2011
8:17 PM
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I'll take you up on the bet. I am not a professional musician nor am I even a good amateur. I do enjoy quality sound, tone, performance and music. I don't think I can fully put into words to do this debate justice.
Good harp tone, performance, amplifying, and music has so many variables. Everyone hates to hear it but it is so true, the most critical part is the players quality (but most people that play will accept that). Each thing that is between the performer and what the audience hears has a significant affect on the end result.
I have to admit that electric devices are pretty darn good for what they do. It becomes a candy shop for a child that had been raised on a healthy diet. If you can justly play through them and get the result you want, you have won your debate.
Audiences hear what they like. Though they may not know all that is in it, they can rightly hear the player through all the effects. The audience also appreciates a good balance. Waring members of a band will offend most audiences. Each musician should be sure that there equipment compliments their performance.
Tube Amps. Tube amps have established themselves way before transistors were thought of. A culture of tone evolved with amplification. Though tube amps were not engineered for what the performers eventually played, the amps inherently have that expression that we hear great players manipulate and it compliments their performance. The way a tube passes electrons has a unique quality that changes with attacks and envelopes. This tends to give the output a humanistic character that the performer can use to enhance expression. this is very hard for a amp modeler to copy. Sag from the tube rectifiers and compression, that is an element of the weaknesses of a tube amplifier, becomes a harp players partner. The sweetness of tone through a great tube amp expresses the qualities a of a great harp player.
Amp modelers are great but I haven't heard one that can compliment a good harp player the way a tube amp can. That being said, a great harp player can make an awesome tone on a solid state amp. One of my favorite players, Madcat Ruth, generally plays through a solid state Peavey.
I think the difference between a tube amp and the other ways of amplification is much like racing cars. If the chosen cars are the classic Corvets of the mid sixties verses the recent Corvet model, a professional driver will put both cars through their paces. I bet the new Vet would probably out do the old Vet in many ways. I have heard many a interview of Vet drivers and though the new Vets are more smooth and powerful, the drivers favored the old Vets because they had more to do with a good performance of the car. The old Vet performed accordingly to the finesse of the driver.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 8:24 PM
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Littoral
238 posts
Jan 08, 2011
8:43 PM
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So, why don't most guitar players play through the PA?
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hvyj
1026 posts
Jan 08, 2011
9:01 PM
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As the story goes, when Leo Fender ordered speakers for the early electric guitar amps he was manufacturing, he sent the first shipment back because they were high fidelity speakers. It was part of Leo Fender's genius that he understood at an early point in time that the signal from an electric guitar pick up is NOT high fidelity. It requires different amplification than a signal from a mic in order to sound right.
An electric guitar won't sound like an electric guitar characteristically sounds if you play it direct into the PA board.
Now, some players like playing harp through guitar amps because it can give the harmonica a more guitar like sound. I often play through an acoustic bass amp because i like the cleaner deeper darker tone. Some players like to play through keyboard amps which are essentially small PAs. Others use acoustic guitar amps. And, of course you can go into the PA--if you do, using a hi z mic into the 1/4 inch input jack of the board bypasses the PA board's microphone preamp. Using the XLR input jack sends you through the board's mic preamp (which, btw, on Mackie boards are VERY harp friendly).
Since you are using a mic signal as an electric harp player you have more viable options than an electric guitar player has. the trick is to understand what sort of sound you get from different gear or combinations of gear. once you understand what different gear does, you can select equipment that makes you sound the way you you WANT to sound so you can get YOUR sound when you perform. Just getting a tube amp because of the folklore that says tube amps are best for harp may or may not get you where you want to go--it depends on what you actually WANT to sound like.
IMHO, too many harp players simply try to imitate a sound they've heard on some recording or other. Too many players confuse distortion with tone. IMHO, players of any electrically amplified instrument are better off developing their own independent electric tone/sound that interacts well with their particular playing style and technique and fits the music they perform.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 9:39 PM
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Earwax
23 posts
Jan 08, 2011
9:09 PM
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Nice replies guys,
Just the stuff I was wondering about.
@Joe_L
If it sounds like my mind is made up, clean the wax from your ears brother. I asked the question to hear professional harmonica players viewpoints. I had a hunch, but have never owned a tube amp. I play mostly woodwinds, so mic-ing up a harp has always been a mysterious thing for me. I wanted someone more advanced to tell me why I am wrong. Do you have anything constructive to add or are we trolling for new guys on the forum?::) j/k man..
@Mr.verylongusername
It is gonna take me all day tomorrow to go over your gear, but thanks so much for your thoughts. Great post
@traintrain
I enjoyed your point of view too. How will we solve the bet though?:)
@hvyj
I agree. Cool story.
This thread is full of gear, and info. I am enjoying this read. Thanks everybody....
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 9:14 PM
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shbamac
45 posts
Jan 08, 2011
10:10 PM
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To my ears and for my tone when I want to play amplified nothing beats my vintage and custom tube amps. I've played all kinds of solid state/combo/modeling amps and none of them sound as good to me. For some songs I prefer playing a clean mic straight into the PA. I also enjoy playing with digital effects. You can do some wicked sounding stuff.
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Greg Heumann
981 posts
Jan 08, 2011
11:32 PM
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First, define "better". Can't "solve" any bet before you do.
I agree with those who say "play what you want." But I guarantee you can't make your rig sound like a good tube amp. I happen to like that sound, to me it is "better." Whether it is to you, I can't say.
Digital boxes are wonderful - they let you change up your sound and that's cool. And they can simulate a tube amp and get nice sounds. But they do not sound exactly like a tube amp.
P.S. - I do not like the way my saxes sound though my harp amp, although sometimes I'll put the harp mic on a holder beneath the SM57 I use to mic my bari - and leave the volume control open, so I'm playing through the PA and the harp amp. I get big fat bass that way......
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 11:38 PM
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7LimitJI
276 posts
Jan 09, 2011
2:49 AM
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"As the story goes, when Leo Fender ordered speakers for the early electric guitar amps he was manufacturing, he sent the first shipment back because they were high fidelity speakers. It was part of Leo Fender's genius that he understood at an early point in time that the signal from an electric guitar pick up is NOT high fidelity. It requires different amplification than a signal from a mic in order to sound right."
Fender amps were, and are built to a price.
If Leo sent the "Hi-Fi" speakers back it would be because they were too expensive.
Fenders early amps were made to be played clean.
It was an accident that they sounded so good when overdriven.
Tubes were not designed as music amplifiers,but signal amplifiers and used in military equipment such as rockets.To replicate and amplify that signal without distorting it.
When they do distort, they do it gradually and smoothly which makes for a pleasant sound.
When a solid state amp distorts, its usually sudden and harsh which makes for an unpleasant sound.
Emulators and ss guitar amps try to mimic the sound of a tube by manipulating the signal and putting it through more and more chips,filters,buffers,whatever.
All of which colour/degrade the signal.
If you want an approximation of 50 tube amps in a box,thats fine.
I'd rather have one real one.
Actually I'd like lots and lots,more
Currently have:-
Kendrick Bassman
Mojo kit self built Bassman
Bandmaster head
Vibrolux
Torres Champ
2 x 5w kit amps
1/2w self built, Mark Burness designed
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Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 2:51 AM
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SuperBee
51 posts
Jan 09, 2011
3:58 AM
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yeah i dunno...currently i love having my amp on stage because there have been too many times where i just cant hear myself through the PA...if i could control my on-stage sound level while playing through the pa that would be cool. i dont quite understand how you fellers do that. you may have to speak really slowly for me...
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boris_plotnikov
398 posts
Jan 09, 2011
4:13 AM
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I hate depending on soundman, so this is the main reason why I prefer amps over PA. I love my tone to tube amp, boosted at some frequencies by MXR EQ, I also love tone of RP-200 to PA. Tube amp gives you essential cut and compression. PA and keyboard/acoustic guitar amps gives clearness. Ideally I want to have ability to mix my tube amp tone and keyboard amp with HarpAttack or RP-200.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Joe_L
971 posts
Jan 09, 2011
5:47 PM
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Earwax - here's something constructive for you, if you are still around. Play through a bunch of gear and formulate your own opinions. Opinions wills range from tube amps are a must have to tube amps aren't very useful.
Depending on the music you play, your chosen method of amplification will vary. So try a lot and play what you want. If you don't think you need tubes, then you don't.
Dig.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 5:48 PM
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HarpNinja
947 posts
Jan 09, 2011
6:52 PM
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I use an amp because I want control of my volume and feedback control. I am hoping to eventually go from mic to effects to board when I run my own sound. I need another powered monitor, though...and then I have to eq, and really, although less gear, more work.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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htownfess
242 posts
Jan 09, 2011
8:08 PM
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I would qualify any assertion I made about the strengths of tube amps for harp by saying that those strengths--the expressive quality of response and warmth/richness of harmonic content that others mention--are proportionate to the quality & harp-friendliness of the tube amp in question, and utilizing them effectively depends on the style of playing.
In other words, I think the tube amp is potentially superior for blues harp, not inherently superior. Saying a tube amp is better is the logical fallacy known as a sweeping generalization--you'll like it if you already prefer tube amps, but it oversimplifies the issue.
Earwax claimed he lives in my town, so if he crosses paths with me at a jam, I'll give him the opportunity to play through a nice tube amp.
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Mojokane
219 posts
Jan 09, 2011
8:23 PM
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yup...spice it up if you can...try not to sound the same all night. (unless that's what you like).
For me, having a tube amp is enough. Certain sets require the same sound, too. But when it comes to PA clartity, it's a sweet departure,...just, not all night...for me anyway.
How's this?
There needs to be an effects box, which can simulate the clarity of playing through the P.A., and also, ..the tube tone (bark and attack) needed on other songs which call for it. WHich I don't believe can be done with a solid state amp...?
There are plenty of tube tones to go round. They are not all the same.
I enjoy my Pignose 30/60 alot. And it screams tube tone. But it is flat without a delay pedal. And won't bark like my Admiral EL84 Rola 12 combo.
For me, there is often too much attention given to gear. And not enough to actual playing...I'm guilty as charged. Finding the right sound (I'm looking for) has become an addiction,.
And lately, my energies are best spent in the shed.
I too have the some of the best gear, and can play any size venue now. I'm glad that is over.
There is a fascination with the vintage tone you get from the real stuff. I'm sure there are folks in the audience who could care less, and wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
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colman
17 posts
Jan 26, 2011
8:04 AM
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look at the masters,last time i saw james cotton and jr' wells they both played through the PA system.it didn`t matter what they played through, their tone was bad to the bone,standing alone...
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2011 8:07 AM
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walterharp
524 posts
Jan 26, 2011
8:30 AM
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one thing that is overlooked here is the separation that comes from playing with amps. everything through the PA is not localized unless you have a good stereo PA and soundman that can use that to localize stuff. However in a small to medium venue, amps offer separation of sound, individual players can be recognized when they play, and the sound has more depth. Many players (like Ricci, Wilson etc) like to play through an amp and sing through the PA because it gives their sound more depth, and it gives another option, to play on the vocal mic through the pa
most all the pros that do play through amps, use tube amps for a reason.
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