bazzzzou ask blowsmeway.com I think he sells CM elements or type Controled Magnetic or Controled Reluctance element into ebay , also make sure you are cupping the mic right that makes a big difference to your amplified tone, make sure your amp is right for Blues Harpin & make sure your acoustic tone is good. If all these factors are right you should have a big fat raspy tone (: ----------
I read on a ham radio site once that guys would put a piece of plastic, cut from a ziploc-type bag, in front of the element to warm the tone on some mics. I've never tried it, but you could experiment with different thicknesses, ex. sandwich, ziploc, freezer bags. It seems like it would act as a high cut filter. Might muddy your tone. Blows Me Away could install a vintage element into your shell, Fat Dog Amps will do the same, giving you, possibly, the sound you're looking for.
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2010 8:42 PM
First and foremost, the single biggest factor is YOU. If you are a beginner, it is common to get overly bright tone. You haven't learned to cup well yet! You didn't say what green bullet you had. On a scale of bright and harsh to smooth and crunchy, it goes 520DX-->520D-->520. The 520 had a single impedance controlled magnetic element. The 520D had a dual impedance controlled magnetic element. The 520DX has a modern dynamic element. Frequency response went up with each model.
I do not recommend spending money to modify a 520DX. It is too big and too heavy and regardless of what you do to solve the inevitable internal cable failure problem, and/or tonal changes, it always will be. For $50 I would buy a Hohner Roadhouse and start with that, or try to pick up a vintage shell from someone like me. I DO have a wide range of elements available - feel free to contact me.
first and foremost is your own internal air column. deep breathing and relaxation exercises ie yoga and voice lessons can get your body tuned up so you can achieve resonance starting someplace near your navel. once you achieve good acoustic tone the gear is secondary. i've had harp players blow me off my stool through the p.a. with their tone. gear wise the shure cm is to me the best element, preferably an older one from the 60's or earlier. a green bullet shell can work ok. i have a brown bullet shell with a cm element that is one of my work horse mics. it's out for some mods with a bud locally at the moment. greg of blowsmeaway has done some great work on a dynamic mic for me; it's another work horse mic, smaller than a bullet but just as awesome and easier to hold and cup. also mif you shop ebay i know rharley has some really good looking mics listed from time to time. amp-wise there are so many choices. from small to big there are definite guidelines for an amp that will give the best response to whatever mic you use.
the mic/amp issue will NIT give you good tone. they WILL improve your sound once you have found your deeper tone from within.
i don't mean to sound uppity, these are just facts i have learned the hard way for myself.
Personally, warmth is not a characteristic I associate with most bullet mics. I think the tone I get out of the 545 Ultimate I got from Greg is fat and warm if I cup the mic correctly.
Opinions certainly vary, but most bullet mics sound somewhat harsh to my ear. Haven't actually tried any of Greg's bullets, though, and he seems to get pretty good tone from his on the recordings I've heard. But, in general, I'm not a bullet mic fan myself.
@hvjy - a good bullet can indeed be fairly warm and the tone between one and a vintage 545 is not as different as you might think. But if you compare to one of the "off the shelf" bullet available today, I agree with you. ---------- /Greg
I think that I have A 520DX with a modern dynamic element.. the last version of the green bullet.. for those who think that the probleme come from me =P.. it is just to say that I can play and without a mic, I love my tone.. I am 16 years old ans if you want I can show you the way that I play..I am not that bad =P! I use a peavey windsor studio and it is a very nice amp for harp.. I can create my tone very well. But.. I just want a sound more fat and warm.. in my amp, my powertube is a 6l6gc and my to preamp tubes are 12ax7.. my major problem is that I am from quebec !! I dont realy know were to find elements in a store.. (by the way sorry for my bad english..!)
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2010 2:43 PM
lol look at that xD! it is a litle improvisation that me and one of my friend did a couple of weeks ago!! I am now playing for a year and a half and forgive my errors, it was just a litle jam =P!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWodWVX6_uQ
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2010 2:49 PM
hey bazz, i was not knocking you, just citing what we all go through early on. we'd dig seeing video or hearing sound clips of course!
another way to go with an element if you can find a good one, would be a vintage shure crystal, #151 i think, which has a great clarity to it while also giving off a nice warm tome through a harp amp. i have one and have had it in my gig bag for years. crystals don't typically have the heavier bottom end response of a cm element but can definitely be made to bark pretty well with amp settings and a tight cup. i use mine for playing chromatic since it reproduces more clearly then a cm. a more bell-like tone.
i see some decent looking element on ebay frequently. what i would look for is high seller's rating and a photo of the element hooked up to an ohm meter to show its resistance features. higher is better generally (someone correct me if i'm mistaken).
@ bazzzzou,.. The 520 DX is not a bad mic But does need a better element for harp,.a CM is in order,..
I can work on yours an hook You up with a CM element of choice & 5/8 switchcraft connector,. E-me with questions,.
AS far as the DX being too big and too heavy / They are all close in weight <>
520 / Net Weight 340 grams (3/4 Ib) with attached cable 520D / Net Weight (with cable) 630 grams (22 oz.) 520DX / Net Weight (with cable) 737 grams (26 oz)
So I suggest working with what you have,. The Hohner Roadhouse is a bargain at 50 bucks but you will want to upgrade that mic with a CM down the road. ---------- Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Nobody mentioned Learn to Tongue Block ....A relaxed straight connection with Diaphram , Vibrado , and TB ..Then try a good element CR ..CM .. JT30 .. Volume Pot in it ...Greg is the man ....to see ....A good harp With Wood Comb will also give you a warmer tone ...I make those ... Have Harp Will Travel
I would not call the difference between a 520 at 340 grams and a 520DX at 737 as being "close in weight". That's more than 100% difference. Yes I know about the cable - most of the weight of the cable is on the floor. A 520DX is still noticeably heavier. The last wood mic I shipped weighed 125 grams, by the way. Diameter matters too - actually circumference, which is Pi*D, is what really matters. And there's a big difference there too.
@bazz -you play fine. However just because you have good acoustic tone doesn't automatically mean you have good amplified technique. Good acoustic tone is, as they say, "necessary but not sufficient." Trust me on this, it takes most players, even very good ones, YEARS to develop good cupping technique. That can be accelerated with lessons from someone who actually does know how. ---------- /Greg
Greg is referring to a fairly extreme cupping technique he uses to overdrive the element of a bullet mic to generate low end distortion which requires pretty much an air tight seal.
I think I'm pretty competent at mic handling technique in general and i usually play with a tight cup most of the time. But it doesn't approach the sort of tight cup Greg is referring to which is a highly disciplined technique that IS very difficult to learn to do consistently well. It's not something I've learned do. I don't use a bullet mic and I'm not particularly interested in playing with that sort of low end distortion. But I've fooled around with that technique enough to know that it is very tough to learn to learn how do properly.
Good mic handling technique is as necessary to achieving good amplified tone as is starting with good acoustic tone. But, as Greg pointed out, good acoustic tone alone won't get you there.
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 11:15 AM
many years ago i bought a little walter double album called 'boss blues harmonica'. there was a painting on the cover of little walter cupping a 545 type mic.
i grabbed a 545 (these were very common back then) and plugged it into a Supro amp and viola! just seal up and go. opening and closing your seal by degrees changes the tone.
no way is this going to take, and i quote,"YEARS".
---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
I'm not a fan of bullet mics, so I've been hesitating to say much more on this thread than I've already posted. But here's a true story that may have some relevance, FWIW:
A couple of weeks ago, a guy shows up at a weekly blues jam with a Sonny Jr. 410 and a Shure Green Bullet 520DX. I was not impressed with the sound. The guy was not a beginner, but was by no means an accomplished player, either. He was something of a gear head and seemed more preoccupied with equipment than playing technique. I was playing through a tubed down Super Reverb using the Shure 545 Ultimate i got from Greg.
Anyway, the guy is curious about my mic and we get to talking. Really nice guy. I'd never tried a Sonny Jr. 410, so i was asking him about his amp and he offers to let me try it. I tell him I would be interested in how his amp would sound with my mic, so he lets me plug in and fool with the tone controls (he had the channels bridged).
Anyway, suffice it to say i got objectively deeper and warmer tone out of the Sonny Jr. 410 using my 545 Ultimate than he had been getting using his Green Bullet 520DX. Then he tried playing through his Sonny Jr. using my mic and he also got a deeper and warmer tone which he liked.
When i saw the guy at the same jam the following week, he told me that he had been on Greg's Blows Me Away Productions website and was making plans to order a hi-z 545 Ultimate with a Bulletizer. (My mic doesn't have a Bulletizer and he said he found it difficult to cup.)
The moral of the story is that a player should have a reason for selecting the particular equipment he or she uses. I had the impression that this guy was using a Green Bullet because he got the idea that type of mic is what a harmonica player is SUPPOSED to play through. A player will be happier with his or her sound by selecting equipment that produces the type of sound/tone that player likes. There is no "right" type of mic for harp playing. The best mic is one that gives you the sound you are after which may, or may not, be a bullet mic. Don't buy equipment because of folklore about what is good for harmonica. Select equipment because of how it makes you sound under performance conditions. Let your ears be your guide.
"The moral of the story is that a player should have a reason for selecting the particular equipment he or she uses. I had the impression that this guy was using a Green Bullet because he got the idea that type of mic is what a harmonica player is SUPPOSED to play through."
If you just play it and work with it, your patience will be rewarded. They aren't horrible, but they aren't great. They are usable. I was using one pretty much every week for the past ten months. I was playing it through everything I could plug into which included a solid state PA (not recommended), a tweed Champ clone, a Harpgear Double Trouble, a Meteor Mini Meat, a reissue Bassman, a solid state Peavey Bandit 65 and a Super Sonny.
In the video below, I was playing it into a Lone Wolf Harp Tone+ into the Harpgear Double Trouble.
In the next video (same tune), it was plugged straight into a Meteor Mini Meat.
The 520DX matched up pretty well with both of these amps. If a person has patience and is willing to work with that mic, it'll perform the necessary task of amplifying the harmonica.
I wish I had thought to record the set through the Peavey Bandit. It sounded pretty good.
My advice is just play it and keep working at it until you are happy with the sound. It will happen eventually. When you are happy with it, equipment will be less important.
hvyj, what does your post have to do with cupping?
but since you changed the subject- i'm glad you did- too polemical- here is my take on mics.
though i own an Astatic 200 chop and a JT-30, my weapon of choice is an Astatic 30 (they like the number 30 for some reason) so called 'biscuit'. it's a dave kott and pretty righteous!
easy peasy to cup well. no one on this forum seems to like the biscuit. wierd!
i think understand why the 57 is such a big deal.(no offense gregg) but it's probably because of JR. i like to mic amps with them myself. also the average 57 owner runs it through a bunch of hoorah into some whopping amp and god knows that what comes out the other end is going to be 'different' for sure. good? hmmmm, maybe.
so... ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 12:55 PM
@MP: Well, i agree with you about cupping a 545. your experience is consistent with my own.
A while ago, Greg put up a post on Harp-l discussing in detail a technique of cupping so tight that you need to seal the open holes of the harmonica to prevent leakage and describing the effect this technique produces. That's how i happen to know what he is talking about and how hard it is to duplicate that technique, the objective of which, as i understand it, is to overdrive the element of a bullet mic to produce low order distortion through a tube amp. That's not the sound i go for, so I've never worked very hard to duplicate the technique Greg was talking about, but I fooled around with trying to do it enough to realize that it's not easy to learn to do.
I'm with you on SM 57s. i happen to think the 545 is a terrific mic for harmonica. But, given a choice, I'd use an EV RE 15 before I'd use an SM 57. Greg is fond of saying that the 57 and the 545 are very similar, but having had an opportunity to A/B an SM 57 Ultimate with a 545 Ultimate, I found the 545 to be different and, to my ear, a much better harp mic for the sound I'm after.
The 57 DOES have proximity effect, though, so it does respond to mic handling techniques.
I used to use bullet mics when i was inexperienced and didn't know any better. Based on my experiences, I don't like them for a number of reasons, but YMMV. Never tried a biscuit, but there are a lot of players who do like them.
Joe L sounds great, but if he invited me to sit in with his band, I wouldn't enjoy playing through either of his rigs. But they are right for him.
My favorite harp mics are a Shure 545 Ultimate and an EV RE 15. I like the stock 545, but found it a little too awkward to handle conveniently. Love the 545 Ultimate, though. I think the Audix Fireball V is useful for certain applications but for not general purposes.
It's a matter of the player finding what mic works well to get the particular sound that player is after.
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 1:58 PM
@MP - no offense taken! This is a good discussion.
I agree again with hvjy. However my personal preference is a bullet personally for three reasons:
1: when you do get one of those rare exceptional CM or CR elements, the tone is superior even to the 545 for my taste. An average/good CM and a 545 are surprisingly similar in sound.
2:I could live with the tone of a good 545 for sure - I love the way they sound. I simply find a bullet more comfortable to cup. This always comes back to hand and face shape. What works best for someone isn't necessarily what will work best for another.
hvyj, no argument there. the audix fireball sounds like a very small pistol shaped audix drum mic i used to mess with for a very clean evenly balanced tone- like if you were playing Charlie McCoy stuff where crunchy mids are a dumb idea. they don't have too much high end like 545s and 57s.
oh, this thread was about GBs wasn't it? - Gregg, they are awfully purty.
my Astatic bullets and biscuit all have immaculate chrome grilles and contain CRs. i think they are white and i don't know the numbers. i just like what sounds good. and looks good too i guess.--------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 3:09 PM
..sorry for the ramble, though...a worthy subject. Please, allow me to chime in..
MP...I like the size, and sound, of the Fireball. And they are low z, too. Very useful when you need it. Though, I don't own one, yet. I was impressed with the general tone, a little Charlie Musselwhite-ish, clean crystal type tone. Very nice.
...my experience with the GB is...
I enjoy experimenting with newer, & vintage, mic shells, to find ones which will suit me best.
The real question, starts with ergonomics; ...big hands, small hands..the size and weight of your mic.
If you don't care about this, you'll do real well with a GB. They are the original blues mic.
...the GB shell is too heavy(with the exception of a sm shell). Try to comfortably hold one all night. It does get heavy. Maybe the newer ones have less weight...?
They sound incredible with a great CM or CR....let's not forget the R7 crystals.
It's all in how you play, and cup your hands, too.
The 520, big or small shell, is a winner for sure.
Greg..Pretty is cosmetic and flash. I have a couple I will never sell. Always good to have on hand, too. There is something about a 520 shell and a good CM...oh yeah.
Let's consider, and this pertains to hand techniques like cupping, to achieve better bottom and tone response in general.
The Astatic 200 chop mics. Yup..try and find one, though. They are lighter (cheap pot metal), shorter in length (from grill to tail end...3.25" vs 2.25").
The weight, and length, are big factors when you consider time spent holding it, and hand techniques, too.
@JoeL: Yeah. Depending where one sets the midrange control on a Super Reverb or which input jack is used one can get a dirtier sound. And the dry channel on a Super is dirtier than the reverb channel. And one certainly can get dirt using a tight cup and proximity effect with a 545.
BUT, in my experience most bullets I've played through respond a little slower than a 545 and produce more dirt in between notes. So i generally find it harder to play at fast tempo and still maintain articulate separation between the notes if i use a bullet mic. I also find it harder to get as much tonal variation from a bullet than i can get using a 545. I can get dirt out of a 545 when i want it with technique, but I can't clean up a bullet using technique. So, I find that i have to alter my style of play if i am playing through a bullet.
I can usually get an acceptable sound no matter what I'm playing through, but I feel inhibited playing through most bullet mics because i have to limit my technique to an extent that keeps me from playing up to my capabilities if i have to use a bullet. But you certainly sound pretty good.
MojoKane, is that the blue tag bullet you installed a jack in Corys mic? ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
hvyj said: "I'd use an EV RE 15 before I'd use an SM 57"
Another to check out is the RE 18. Same capsule as the 15 the windscreen is a little larger and they put some shock resistant material to take away "rumble effect". It fits perfectly in the cup of the hands due in part to the slightly bulbous windscreen and the thin EV shaft. I like it better than the RE 15. I've wondered about the EV 16 but I think the windscreen is a little higher? I've seen Junior Wells use an RE 16 sounded great to me.
Someone mentioned the EV N/D468. I wonder if that's the same capsule as the 15, 16, and 18?
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2010 10:49 AM
They seem pretty close in spec. I know that the 468 has a pivoting head but I bet the capsule is identical to the current production RE16 which is the same capsule in the 15 & 18 btw.
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2010 11:21 AM
I'm seeing a spec of 60 to 22,000 for the 468? You understand that even though a microphone may use the same capsule as another the specs be be different based on it's enclosure, wind screen design, and choice of transformer or lack of right? It's not uncommon at all for a mic manufacturer to use the same capsules in several different designs.
You may be right. i don't know that much about it except that the freq response specs are different. The specs on the EV site for the 468 are 20-22,000.
It's just a hunch. A lot of manufacturers use the same capsule for several designs. I'm looking at the spec pdf and it's showing 60 to 22,000 Hz. Maybe they changed something with the design? Something that I was going to add was microphones can vary radically in frequency response and pattern all using the same capsule. Take for instance a typical multi-pattern mic where you basically have several microphones in one all using the same capsule. I'll head over to EV's site and check that out. My EV spec sheet's not showing that spec.
