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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Buying all keys vs cross harp
Buying all keys vs cross harp
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Xpun3414
19 posts
Oct 28, 2010
10:26 AM
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Ok all,quick question....
Why should I worry about learning cross harp..2nd,3rd posistion and so on? Cant I just go and get harps in all the keys? Thats sort of my intent anyway,to buy all the keys. But should I or shouldn't I ? And why or why not? Thanks.
Jimmy
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toddlgreene
1992 posts
Oct 28, 2010
10:37 AM
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If you play live, and not just for your own enjoyment, get a whole keyset, and maybe some of the lows and highs as well. You'll be ready for any position(that you play in comfortably), no matter what key is being played in by other musicians.
Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared!
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2010 10:37 AM
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ridge
107 posts
Oct 28, 2010
10:38 AM
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Jimmy,
There is no issue with buying all keys, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn different positions.
If someone is playing a blues in G, you could use a G harmonica in 1st position, a C harmonica in 2nd position, an F harmonica in 3rd position...
What you're proposing is that you always play the key of harmonica that the band is in, so you'd always being playing 1st position. Each position has it's own flavor, texture, feel, etc. Some positions just lay out better for different styles of music.
If you are listening to other blues harmonica players and trying to mimic that, you will find yourself unable to do so since many players use 2nd and 3rd position more than they use 1st.
I hope that encapsulates the answer you were looking for without being too over your head.
If you're a beginner player, the run of the mill response is get yourself harmonicas in the keys G, A, Bb, C, D.
Keys like Ab, B, Db, Eb, E, F, F# are less commonly used, but it's still good to have them all if you have the money to spend! I personally do not currently have a B, Db or F# in my harmonica case, but I do have 2 C harmonicas, 2 D harmonicas and 2 A harmonicas.
-Dan Ridgeway
I guess I will also mention that Cross Harp = 2nd Position
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2010 10:40 AM
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mercedesrules
52 posts
Oct 28, 2010
10:42 AM
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.....I'm just a beginner, too, Jimmy, but it has to do with the way the soulful, bendable draw notes fall in cross harp that leads to 90% of diatonic harp playing to be in cross. It is not so much about transposing keys as it is for soulful wailing/bending. If you only want to play majory-sounding folk style in first, that's O.K., too, but you'd be missing out on much blues feeling and impact.
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TNFrank
606 posts
Oct 28, 2010
10:44 AM
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Yep, Ridge pretty much hit it on the ol' head. There's a different feel to playing Cross Harp in G as opposed to playing Straight Harp in G. All of your draw bends will be Cross Harp and that's where the "feeling" comes from. For Folk or Country Straight Harp is fine but once you start playing the Blues or Rock you need that, for lack of a better term "soul" in your playing that you get from playing Cross Harp. Adam has a bunch of great YouTube vids as does Lee Sankey and Jason Ricci. Hit YouTube and check out some vids, that may help to answer some of your questions, I know it did for me.
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nacoran
3089 posts
Oct 28, 2010
11:00 AM
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Like the others already said, it's about what sound you are going for. Try a blow note and a draw note. (The 4 hole is good for this.) The you can bend the draw note. If you clip a little bit of the 5 hole on the draw you can get this cranky sound. The 4-5 blow doesn't get the same sound. There are all sorts of little subtleties like that. In second position a lot of these subtleties line up right for notes and sounds important in blues. Folk tunes may often end up in first position. Other positions work better for songs in minor.
But that's not an argument against getting all the keys! You may find you want to be able to play any tune in 2nd position, or any tune in first. Having all the keys will give you choices. While you're filling out your collection, be sure to try a couple different harp models too. You'll find your own favorite. There are wood/plastic/metal/composite comb choices to make. There are equal/compromise/just tuning issues. There are loudness, brightness and warmth issues. There are low and high tuned harps, minor tuned and non-Richter tunings! (But don't let that be overwhelming, you can walk into a store and get a set of 12 harps of one brand and if that brand/model works for you, it's all good.)
What I did at the start was buy a couple good harps in the most common keys and then fill out the rest with cheap harps. As I had the money I tried different combinations. I have all the keys, and a good harp in most of them. I have a couple other good harps to try out though before I decide on what model is my preferred harp.
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Nate
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toddlgreene
1995 posts
Oct 28, 2010
11:04 AM
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I play in 2nd most of the time-I love it's feel, so I make sure I can do this-and any other position I choose-by keeping a keyset.
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
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TNFrank
609 posts
Oct 28, 2010
11:45 AM
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Actually, easy way to see the difference is between the 2 draw and the 3 blow. Both are the same note but you can make the 2 draw feel a lot more bluesy because you can bend it down a bit.
You'll still need the major(as in mainly used) keys to play along with folks but instead of straight harp you'll use the same key in cross harp.
Likes been said, get a G,A,Bb,C and D that should cover most of what you'll play, maybe pick up an Eb and an F (or Low F) later on and you should have about all you need. If you're playing with a really good band they can transpose the song to any key you'd want to play in if they're nice enough to do it.
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hvyj
752 posts
Oct 28, 2010
12:46 PM
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Having all 12 keys alone won't enable you to play many tunes in those keys. Richter tuned diatonic harmonicas DO NOT have a 12 tone chromatic scale available. And you can only bend to get certain of the missing notes, not all. So, unless you are able to play in multiple positions (or OB) you are essentially limited to playing tunes that can be played using a 7 tone diatonic scale--which is pretty limiting.
Btw, if you have the good fortune to sit with a really good band you're more likely to get invited back if you have the harps you need to play the material in the keys they call without expecting them to transpose for your convenience.
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2010 12:55 PM
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Xpun3414
20 posts
Oct 28, 2010
3:10 PM
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Thank you guys :) you guys are such a big help to me here. Im happy to say Im a part of this forum. So.. It seems as though I will need to learn how to play cross harp after all & thats ok. Now the thing is,Ive no idea of how to play like that. Ive watched & read about it a lot,but it just seems to elude me :( Is it all draw..is it just playing on a different hole..what?? I just cant seem to figure it out.
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TNFrank
625 posts
Oct 28, 2010
3:17 PM
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I'm not good on theory but here's what little I know on the subject. From what I've understood, you start on the 2 draw as your root note of your scale and then work your way up from there for your notes. I'm not really sure what they all are, I just kind of know it without knowing, since I play by ear. On 1st Position you start at the 4 blow and go up from that note. 3rd Position starts at the 4 draw and goes up from there. For all I know I've could have been playing 3rd and not even known it. I basically draw the 2 hole, if it's a match to the root chord/note of the song then I just use that harp to play with and go from there.
This is why I hate not knowing theory, it makes it so hard for me to explain anything to someone. Hope you could make heads or tails out of a little bit of what I said though.
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hvyj
754 posts
Oct 28, 2010
3:55 PM
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@Xpun3414: Click on my user name and it will take you to my profile where I have posted tab for pentatonic scales in 6 positions. You can start there.
To orient you, assuming you are playing a C harp, the tab for each position would put you in the following keys:
1st=C 2d=G 3d=D 4th=A minor 5th=E minor 12th=F
Start with playing the minor pentatonic scale in 3d position in the middle register which begins on draw 4 and goes up to draw 8. It's easy, there's no bends and it's one note short of being the blues scale. This scale can be used for playing major key blues in D or minor tunes in D minor. It's a technically easy scale to play.
Btw, i am unaware of any instructional materials that lay out the common breath patterns for pentatonic scales in different positions, which is why i posted this stuff.
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Xpun3414
21 posts
Oct 28, 2010
4:24 PM
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thanks Hvyj,Im on it.
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KingoBad
469 posts
Oct 28, 2010
4:48 PM
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Get John Gindick's Rock N Blues Harmonica Book. It is the best 2nd position primer there is. It is a little goofy, but it does the job very well and comes with a CD. You will have the basics in no time.
After you finish the book, you will be better prepared to take on Adam's stuff.
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Xpun3414
22 posts
Oct 28, 2010
5:06 PM
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I'll look into that KingoBad,Thanks
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