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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Dm
Dm
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lumpy wafflesquirt
249 posts
Oct 11, 2010
2:08 PM
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On Saturday I was at an open mic. A guitarist went to play something and said this needs some blues harp it's in Dm.
as the only harp player there I knew he meant me so I looked at my list and pulled out a C harp and played a bit of an obligato/counter melody. My buddy the amazing Uke player said it sounded 'sweet'. unfortunately I have a terrible memory and can't remember the title, it not being a song that I knew.
the question is was I being clever and playing some special mode/positioin or being dumb and playing the wrong harp.
I can't find anywhere what that position is called. I looked at it that Dm is the relative minor key of Gmaj and so I played a C as that is the cross harp to play in G.
Right harp or wrong harp?
what's the position called?
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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toddlgreene
1888 posts
Oct 11, 2010
2:10 PM
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Third position, lumpy, based off of the Dm. I like playing in 3rd. You did good, if that was just a lucky guess!
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2010 2:12 PM
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lumpy wafflesquirt
250 posts
Oct 11, 2010
2:22 PM
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I keep a little chart in my case to show my 1st/2nd position and the relative minors of those.
So not just a guess.
the other wek there was two of us joined i with dream a littl edream of me, I player straight, he played cross. It all worked just fine.
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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LeeEdwards
102 posts
Oct 11, 2010
2:54 PM
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@lumpy - Good to hear that you had success playing in 3rd. You may want to adjust your relative minor chart though as Dm is the relative minor of F major. The relative minor of G major is Em.
Congrats in any case.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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nacoran
2951 posts
Oct 11, 2010
3:13 PM
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Lumpy, instead of a chart, just print out a copy of the circle of fifths. It has all that information in it's mystical enigmatic wheelness.
The cross harp position (2nd) is just one step counterclockwise. You can actually figure out all the positions with it. A nice one like this also shows you all the flats and sharps for each key and all the relative minors.
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Nate
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The7thDave
171 posts
Oct 11, 2010
4:48 PM
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What cool things would I be able to do, as a Blues harmonica player, if I were to memorize the relative minors of each key?
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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Jim Rumbaugh
323 posts
Oct 11, 2010
5:19 PM
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@The7thDave
..for beginners..
The RELATIVE MINOR is always 1 1/2 steps lower.(to play Aminor grab a C harp)
The relative minor is 4th position.
Start on 6 draw
More useful is 3rd position
It is a full step higher. (to play Dm grab a C harp)
Start on 4draw.
The 3rd position is the easiest way to start minor tunes (my opinion) This subject can get complicated. I am giving you the basic intro info.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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hvyj
698 posts
Oct 11, 2010
7:45 PM
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@The7thDave: The relative minor of second position is fifth position. E minor on a C harp.
Playing a C harp in second position puts you in G which is the relative major of E minor. So playing in fifth position on a particular harp puts you in the relative minor key of the second position key on that same harp.
Personally, I find that one one can do all sorts of cool things in fifth position. Like, for example, play "Little Wing" in E minor on a C harp.
5th position root=2 blow. 4th position root=6 draw. 3rd position root=4 draw.
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2010 7:48 PM
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nacoran
2955 posts
Oct 11, 2010
8:00 PM
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"What cool things would I be able to do, as a Blues harmonica player, if I were to memorize the relative minors of each key?"-7thDave
I'm not sure where to start, so if I explain stuff you already know, bare with me. Each major key has a relative minor. Major and minor keys are just patterns of half steps that form an octave. Major keys tend to sound happy. Minor keys tend to sound sad. All a relative minor (besides maybe a niece or nephew) is that same pattern moved to a different starting note. (It's easier to picture if you think of several octaves). The first relative major/minor set most people learn is C major/A minor, because it's really easy to see on a piano.
A C major octave starts on C and ends on the next C, and only uses white keys. A minor starts on A and goes to the next A, and only uses the white keys. The trick is, each key, white or black (here I mean the actual keys that you press on the piano) is a 1/2 step above the note to it's left. If you look at it you'll see there is a pattern. In the key of C major (and all major keys) the pattern is C to D (whole step), D to E (whole step), E to F (half step), F to G (whole step), G to A (whole step), A to B (whole step), and B to C (half step). Different major keys start on different notes, but they all follow that pattern. That pattern of whole and half steps creates the happy sound of a major key. If you start on A and only play white keys you get the pattern for a minor key. On the piano you can see that those two patterns line up but they are offset from each other. Minor keys tend to sound sad.
Now, on a harmonica, things are pretty simple. If you want to play first position in the key of D major you grab a D harp. If you want to play in the key of F major, you grab an F harp. On the piano you have to know that pattern back and foreword though, because you have to mix white and black keys to make that pattern (Essentially that's what you do with a C chromatic harmonica, except instead of using white and black keys you use the slide. On other keys of chromatics it gets more complicated. It's all in the patterns.)
Major and minor keys are just patterns of half and whole steps. There are other patterns called modes, but they don't get used nearly as often. (They are more common in jazz.) That meant that they needed to call some notes # or b to use all the letters and keep to that pesky pattern of whole and half steps.
So, why do you need to memorize the relative minors? Well, you don't have to. You can figure it out the way Jim suggested above. If you memorize the Circle instead then you don't have to calculate each time. Or you can keep a copy of it on the inside of your harp case. There are other things later on that you need to know it for, but the big one for us harpers is knowing what key to play in if someone else starts playing music. If you know the Circle and you are trying to figure out the key of a song by playing along and the first harp you pick up sounds terrible with it without lots of bends and overblows, you probably aren't very close on the Circle. Skip around a couple steps and see if it sounds better. Eventually as you get closer it will sound better. If someone tells you the key they are playing in you can quickly figure out what harp you want to use.
If they'd just stamp it on the cover of harp cases... but they don't, so you can learn it or sit and calculate or keep a copy around. Personally, I have it roughly memorized. I have to stop and think about it. I can draw it out, but I'm still not real fast with it, but I have the memory of a gold fish. Your results may be better. :)
One last thing before the home stretch! You'll notice, if you look at the key signatures on the Circle of Fifths (those are the b and #'s on the lines) that keys next to each other on the circle have a similar number of b's or #'s. That's why it's easy to play in keys that are next to each other on the circle. Most of the notes are the same. The key of D, for instance, has to sharps, F# and C#. The key of A has three sharps, F#, C# and A#.
You'll notice at the bottom of the circle there are a few keys that have more than one key signature. That's because when they designed this whole system they wanted to make it simple!?? To do that they decided that each key would start on one letter and end on that letter and have one of each letter in between (wrapping around from G back to A) in it, even if that meant doing some funny stuff.
(If this makes sense, let me know. I want to make a FAQ for stuff like this. I remember I had a real tough time with this stuff at first. It was only when I revisited it years later that it made any sense. If anyone spots any errors, let me know too.)
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Nate
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The7thDave
172 posts
Oct 11, 2010
8:38 PM
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Thanks, I'm pretty clear on positions in general. I guess what I'm curious about is how knowing the relationship between major keys and their relative minor keys--specifically--will help me (other than generally broadening my understanding of music theory, which is always a good thing).
I understand that it's easy for composers to modulate between a major key and its relative minor, but for all I know that's just because the key signature doesn't change (or doesn't change much). So--is this kind of modulation actually useful within the Blues framework? Are there some example of songs you can name where this happens? Or is it more like an effect you'd use in a solo?
Also--I've heard great-sounding duets with one harp in second position and the other in third position (there are several examples of this on the Billy Branch et al. "Harp Attack" album)--would a duet with one harp in second position and the other in fifth position sound particularly good? Are there any examples of this out there that you can think of?
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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The7thDave
173 posts
Oct 11, 2010
8:47 PM
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Nate--thanks, our last two comments crossed in the ether, apparently. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I'm pretty clear on most of that stuff, personally, but it's good material to have up here. I really just want to know what I can actually DO with this very specific knowledge set.
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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nacoran
2962 posts
Oct 11, 2010
9:08 PM
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7th Dave, I think that's the big thing. I use a plug-in for Windows Media Player called muse-on. It figures out what key a song is in. The thing is, until it has enough notes it can only guess, but it guesses close. If you skip a couple notes in a scale you can leave it ambiguous as to what key it is. If start in one key and then play a while in something in that ambiguous zone you can slip into the next key.
I wrote a tune with a couple key changes. The key to making them sound right was to end the first section with notes that were also in the next key. (Actually, I kind of cheated, I played a sustained note at the end of each section that was the root note for the next key. It sounded sort of like a pitch pipe. It worked pretty well in a Celtic sort of style.)
Looking at the key signatures would help you figure out what would sound good together. I have a little piece of a tune where I played the bass part on my LLF and played the melody on my regular C.
(I was having a little problem with the rhythm on the bass harp. I was doing a lip smack and it wasn't always responding as quickly as I want.) I've used a G/C combo too. I haven't gotten much more adventurous than that though, but theory would let you figure that sort of stuff out. My playing just isn't there yet.
Anyone have some better examples? The only other key change that's springing to mind off the top of my head is Amazing Grace (Terry McMillan has a good harp version.)
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Nate
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nacoran
2970 posts
Oct 12, 2010
11:37 AM
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Ok, after thinking about it more I've got this. Knowing the keys helps you know what kind of chords you are dealing with and where they are in the key. Playing a diatonic by yourself unless you can bend one note separately (I can't do that yet) you are stuck with the chords you've got. Once you're playing with another instrument knowing what notes are in your key and the structures of major and minor keys, including the chord structures they create, let you figure out with the other musicians how to create other chord options. You can take a chord that is major in the key you are playing in and change it to minor to smooth a key change. You can use it to play dissonant notes to create an unstable moment in the music, and if you accidentally stumble on something that sounds cool and different, you can figure out why it sounds that way. If it doesn't fit in the song you are playing knowing how that sound is made lets you move it to a song where it does. When you get more theory you get taught what some of those tricks are and you don't have to stumble onto them.
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Nate
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The7thDave
174 posts
Oct 12, 2010
12:38 PM
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Nate--if we're talking about actually playing chords in different keys, then (with a few exceptions) we're looking at harp-switching, correct?
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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nacoran
2975 posts
Oct 12, 2010
1:03 PM
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On your own, yes, unless you can bend one note in a chord without bending the others. I've tried but all I managed to do is tie my tongue into a human knot. With another musician it's much easier. You play one or two of the notes in the chord and they play the other(s). You can suggest certain chords by leaving out one note.
If you do it right you can suggest another key (possibly using tongue blocks). If you skip chords that are strongly associated with the key and imply the ones you need you can fake it. Then you start needing to know how to imply a dominant or tonic chord. That's right about at the limit of my theory skills though. I'd have to sit down with pen and paper to figure it out beforehand.
There are some other ways. You could special tune harps (I've got something I wrote on piano that isn't in any key. I've thought about tuning a harp to be able to play it.)
Someone showed me this guy once. He gives theory lessons on YouTube. I haven't really sat down and gone through it though.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lypur
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Nate
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MP
908 posts
Oct 12, 2010
4:32 PM
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wow! a good thread! was getting threadbare out there for a while.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
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lumpy wafflesquirt
251 posts
Oct 13, 2010
10:27 AM
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Sorry I've not responded to this before, I cannot post from work and have not had time in the evenings till now.
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I'm a bit confused now as to what is right.
I thought Gmaj and Dm are 'relative' but having just looked again at my chart it seems wrong.
Toddlgreen says my Dm on a C harp is 3rd position
Jim Rumbaugh says Dm is 3rd position on a C
Lee Edwards says Dm is the relative minor of Fmaj which is corroborated by nacoran
HVYJ says fifth position on a C harp is Em [with Gmaj being the relative maj]
Wikipedia says G major has the relative minor of Em both with 1 # [F#] as the wheel above does.
So, whatever I was playing it sounded right, but I am still not sure what it was.
looking at the notes needed/available
Cmaj
C,D,E,F,G,A,B
Dm
D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C
so on a C harp, a bent 3 hole draw gives the correct Dm scale.
The other chart I have of all the 12 positions for each harp doesn't mention minors at all, but says
C harp positions
1st C, 2nd G, 3rd D, 4th A, 5th E, 6th B, 7th F#/Gb, 8th Db, 9th Eb, 11th Bb, 12th F
[note I do not claim to be able to play in any/all of these positions.]
my most common positions are standing up when performing and sitting down when practicing.
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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hvyj
706 posts
Oct 13, 2010
11:05 AM
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@lumpy wafflesquirt: On a C harp you can play D Dorian minor without having to bend, and you can bend to get the flat 6th (Bb) in the lower register in order to play D natural minor on a C harp. "Relative minor" refers to the NATURAL minor, not the Dorian minor. (The natural minor scale has a flat 3d, flat 6th and flat 7th. Dorian minor has a flat 3d, MAJOR 6th and flat 7th.)
The relative major for D minor is F. You can play D natural minor on an F harp in Fourth Position without having to bend. You can also play D minor on a Bb harp in Fifth position. Playing a Bb harp in Second Position puts you in F which is the relative major of D minor. See how this works?
Many harp players just use third position for all minor key playing. I don't really understand why this is so, but it may be because most instructional materials only deal with First Second and Third positions and say that you are supposed to use Third Position for minor keys. But Third Position is NOT an effective one size fits all method for playing in minor keys.
Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2010 11:21 AM
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nacoran
2987 posts
Oct 13, 2010
1:01 PM
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To figure out the positions, just keep counting counter clockwise around the Circle of Fifths. If you play in different positions without bends or blow bends or over blows, just regular old blows and draws, you will be playing in different modes. All modes are is different patterns of half and whole steps. Major and minor are modes, but there are others.
If it sounds good, DON'T STOP! If it sounds good but it's not the traditional way it's done, congratulations, you've made it your own. :)
If you really want to delve into modes:
a la Modes
The real trick with all this is keeping it straight in your head. Major refer to a key or an interval or a chord and the letter D or d can refer to a major or minor key. It gets complicated. The main reason I like the circle of fifths is it organizes the information so you can look at it without having to memorize it all at once. I think you could organize a positions chart in a similar fashion. The ones I've seen are more like data sets than an elegant expression of a repeating pattern. Maybe one of the more artistic members of the forum could come up with something. (I may try to see if mathematically that actually works. I'm pretty sure it would.)
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Nate
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Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2010 1:05 PM
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