arzajac
352 posts
Sep 24, 2010
5:54 AM
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Over the past few months, I've bought about a dozen used harps on Ebay. I'd like to pick the brains of people here about dealing with combs.
I've found that sanding the comb flat (and smooth) with 400 grit sandpaper as well as sanding the draw reedplate to be perfectly smooth makes for a really great sound. Richard Sleigh also writes that the best sounding harmonica is a Marine band with an unsealed wood comb.
A recent SPAH comparison of combs also suggests that perfect flatness can make for a better tone.
The problem with sealing a comb is that the end result (at least the end-result I get) is not as smooth (therefore not as flat) as when it was just sanded down.
Some have mentioned that they seal the comb with water-based polyurethane finish. I have seen photos on the internet of combs dangling on a clothesline being sprayed with the stuff.
That doesn't work. At least not for me. Maybe there is a product out there that is easy to apply like that. Does anyone know of one?
This is what I have found to work for me so far. I am happy with the result - it's very close to the smoothness of an unsealed but sanded comb. Please let me know if you think something is obviously the wrong way to do this.
1- I remove the coverplates with a knife.
2- I drill the screw holes for the coverplates on either side. I use a 3/32 bit.
3- I round out the four corners using sandpaper. This rounds out the reedplates and the comb at the same time.
4- I lift the nails off the reedplate with the knife and pry them off.
5- I apply some hobby paint the the freshly exposed wood. I let it dry for 20 minutes or more.
6- I drill three holes where I want to put machine screws (usually M2 screws, but I also have M1.6 and 2-56 sizes) I will use a 1/16, 5/64th or 3/32 bit for this.
7- I throw on a quick coat of polyurethane finish (gloss) to cover everything, especially the newly sanded and painted corners, but also to get the insides of the comb tines. It doesn't have to be a nice finish, since the inside doesn't touch anything. The finish on the surface of the comb doesn't have to be nice, either - just a light coat to make the wood swell and then dry again. Let it dry completely overnight.
8- I have a flat block of wood into which I have put three screws (nuts) with two bolts each on either side of the block. I adjusted the height of the screws to be just a little less than the thickness of the comb. This is so that when I sand the comb, I don't tilt the block and make the surface of the comb crooked (less than flat). I put thin strips of double-stick tape in the middle and stick my comb there.
9- I draw pencil lines across each tine and two on either side of the tines. I sand the comb with 400 grit sandpaper until the pencil marks are all gone. Pretty much all of the finish I applied in the earlier step is gone but I still find that having done that makes a difference in the process. Not that I have done this a lot, which is why I am starting this thread!)
On a side note: I have an "A" Marine band that I just could not get the three hole to work properly. I gapped and curved for weeks. When I finally took it apart and did this, the pencil mark on the three-hole tine on one side took forever to sand off. That was the problem all along! I could not believe how good the harp sounds now that its comb is flat...
10- I sand the draw reedplate on a clean part of the same sheet of 400 grit sandpaper (usually the edge since I can't get too close to the end while sanding the comb.) I use a disposable vinyl glove and I just keep sanding until the whole surface is uniformly shiny. I tried wetting the reedplate before starting and it may be less work. I rinse it off and dry it.
11- I put the reedplates on the sanded comb and try it out. I look for holes that don't work well. If I am not amazed at how well it plays, I start over, drawing more pencil lines across each tine.... (I buy 400 grit sandpaper in bulk.)
12- I wipe the spit off the comb and let it dry.
13- I put on vinyl gloves and dip one finger in water-based gloss polyurethane finish. Using my lubed fingertip, I apply the finish onto the surface of one side of the comb. I wait one minute and then polish the surface with a lint-free "microfiber" polishing cloth. I polish it a second time making sure that the surface is smooth. This works a lot better than suspending the comb from a hook and spraying willy-nilly.
14- I repeat the same procedure on the other side. I wipe the outer edges of the comb once I am done.
15- I let the comb sit overnight. I repeat the same procedure two more times the next day. I notice two things here:
A- A first coat that is really thin is better than a thick coat. The first coat will not end up being very smooth, but the subsequent coats will become smoother until the surface is almost as smooth as a mirror.
B- The first coat really needs eight hours to dry. I think the roughness is because the wood swells. If you apply subsequent coats before the wood has time to come down, you will never get it smooth.
So, I am happy with the results so far, but I think they can still be better. Any ideas?
Thanks!
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KingoBad
402 posts
Sep 24, 2010
6:04 AM
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I don't prefer to add too much to the wood as far as a "coating." I use butcher block oil which soaks into the wood - and leaves the feeling of wood. Since it soaks into the wood, you can still sand the uneven bits left behind after drying and still have a sealant present in the comb. (not to mention that sealing the sides of the comb is not as important - if you have the reed plates in place moisture shouldn't effect them).
Of course - my plan is just to be "workable." I have painted the back edge of the comb and sealed that with polyurethane just to be fancy (I had embossing, etc. to do so I figured it could dry while I was doing that) but that is not my regular routine.
Anything more than that and I think I'd just rather buy a comb from Buddha.
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2010 6:11 AM
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arzajac
353 posts
Sep 24, 2010
6:15 AM
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KB: Yeah. I have used Butcher Block Oil and it works, but:
1- I doesn't leave a smooth finish. And I usually sand most of it off to get the surface smooth again. By the time I am happy with the smoothness, water seeps into the wood instead of beading.
2- It stinks.
3- It's expensive and a can doesn't last very long. As soon as you open it, it starts to plug up. after a few weeks, you need to throw away the whole thing.
4- There is a big skeleton and cross on the container which says that this stuff it toxic and causes cancer. (Yes, this is Watco Butcher Block Oil)
5- I have heard that many customisers use water-based polyurethane and don't use beeswax or BB oil anymore.
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Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2010 6:17 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
386 posts
Sep 24, 2010
6:16 AM
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I'm sorry I don't have any improvement advice for you, but I just wanted to say reading your awesomely detailed explanation, further reinforced for me that I made the right decision for myself in not attempting to mess with combs.
When I was picking out a harp to learn on I had read about the issues with the marine band wood comb. and I thought well I'm either gonna have to learn how to seal wooden combs myself or go with a plastic comb.
I decided on playing special 20's.
Reading this confirmed i made the right call for myself.
I tip my cap to all the players who work on their harps the way arzajac does.
You are better men than me.
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Buddha
2492 posts
Sep 24, 2010
7:11 AM
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I don't use any kind of varnish or lacquer on my combs. I hand sand them until they shine like a granite counter top.
You'll never get a perfectly flat plate or comb with the method you're using.
I'm working on a sanding jig that I will have a available after the first of year. It's the perfect solution.
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"I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
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LIP RIPPER
310 posts
Sep 24, 2010
7:36 AM
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Holy smokes Chris. I thought my Buddha harp had a finish. Definitely shiny. I've notice that after a year of playing the tops of the comb have small areas, I mean small, that don't have the shine so I thought some finish had worn off. It must just be normal wear which doesn't affect anything.
The B-rad has the dymonwood too and has a more coarse feeling to it.
Buz you're insane, a naturally perverted mind. Don't Change!
The above is a compliment so don't boot me.
LR
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earlounge
156 posts
Sep 24, 2010
7:40 AM
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arzajac - I've never sealed a comb before, but I do know quite a bit about coating wood. FYI beading water is not necessaraly a good indication if the wood is sealed. Products that advertise beading usually contain wax, which usually wears away in time. This does not mean your wood is no longer sealed.
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Buddha
2493 posts
Sep 24, 2010
7:52 AM
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@LipRipper - YOUR harp and some of the other harps from that time have a finish on them. The way I do the combs now do not have a varnish on them to prevent those small areas from wearing off and that's one of the big reasons why I stopped using the lacquer.
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"I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
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HarveyHarp
127 posts
Sep 24, 2010
8:03 AM
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I use Watco also, and mine has not poison warning, and I drink it all the time (Not really) I brush mine on in thin coats with an acid brush, then hang it up by one of the holes, and let dry for 6 hours. I do this at least 3 time. I might go a little heavier in the slots, where all the moisture lives. After the final coat is dry, I use the Dave Payne method. I put a piece of double stick stape on the bottom of a harp case (I use a Big River because it is bigger and flat) and I stick the comb to it and sand it until there is no shiny surface left. I then remove the comb, brush it off, and do the other side. It is flat after that. As for the draw plate, I use 320 wet, until it is shiny, and follow up with 600 wet. I do all the edges and corners, especially where the slot is. After put it together with the three screws, hold it up to the light. If you see light between the comb and plates, you did it wrong.
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HarveyHarp
128 posts
Sep 24, 2010
8:04 AM
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Oh by the way, I do all my work on flat granite.
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chromaticblues
199 posts
Sep 24, 2010
8:55 AM
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@arxajac Your right it stinks. I've used it and don't anymore. Marine bands sound different after using it also. I'll share with you and everyone the only method I have found that doesn't change the sound! Issahculah gave me part of the idea and I believe I have perfected it!
1. Take a fine metal file and file the mouth piece until the reed plates are down to the wood.Once you get to the wood go easy so you down brake the teeth of the comb. Do this untill mos of the yellow finnish is of the teeth.
2. using the same file. Round the corners of the harp a little. Don't get carried away. (just a little)
3. Take a nail out of the cover plate and drill thru the plate into the comb. Then take the nail out on the other side of the harp. The nail you would hit with the drill if you didn't remove it. I don't know what size bit it is I use, but if you take screw out of a special 20 cover plate and look at it. It needs to be the next size smaller than that. That is the size screws you'll need also.
4. now take it apart. Using a jewelers file file the side of each tooth at a 45 degree angle.(just a little) That gets rid of the cross cut saw feeling on your lips. Now soak it in food grade mineral oil for one week. The comb should sink to the bottom of the container in a couple of days. If 4 or 5 days go by and it is still flaoting. Take it out and set in a window that gets alot of light for couple days on a rag or something. Then try it again. It has to sink to the bottom for a few days for this to work!
After that take it out and sand it on a flat surface. I use a leveling plate at work, but you can use a thick pane of glass. Use a short metal fine file to hold the comb with. So you put the comb down on a sheet of 400 grit sand paper that is on a thick pane of glass( like a basement window!) then put the file on the comb and with a little force go back and forth. Don't try to get it all in 10 seconds. I go back and forth 4 or 5 times and look at it. Don't wipe it clean before you look at it is easier to tell when if it is even if you don't. When it is even on both sides blow it off and wipe it with paper towels.
If you do any reed work have it done before you start this. Once the comb comes out of the mineral oil you have to do this whole procedure so it doesn't start to dry. Then I use cap stick and rub it on the part of the comb that the reed plates sit on. This is a very important step. Take your time. Don't use alot just a thin layer but consistant. Then I nail the plates back on starting from the middle and working my way out. Put the cap stick on the top part of the comb and put the blow plate on first. Flip it over and do the same to the draw plate. You have to do it in that order. Don't forget that!! Trust me that is important! Then put your cover plates on.
A couple things I left out.
I use 400 grit sand paper on all the edges of the reed plates. Go all the way around each plate.
I don't use SP 20 cover plate screw I bought some stainless steal screw and I don't put nuts on them.
The nails that hold the cover plates on originaly. I use those to put the reed plates to the comb because they are stightly thicker, and it works!
I also sand all or most of the black paint off. After it is all together I use clear nail polish on the ends of the teeth and around the outside where the black paint was. Just one coat is plenty. That seals most of the comb and makes the mouth piece so easy to play!!!!!!! It feels like a new harp. What a difference.
OK what this does and doesn't do.
First it will give you an air tight harmonica that will not swell. What will still happen is the the teeth will stil splay or warp a little. It doesn't both me. I stick golf tees in some of the holes after I get done playing and in five or ten minutes I take them out and they're staight!
If the teeth warping is going to bother you. You could put butcher block in the teeth of the comb by standing the comb on its end and brushing it on the inside bottom part of each tooth ( flat surface closest to the table on each tooth). Next flip it and do the same. Third day lay it on its back and do the back of each hole. Let it dry for a week. Then put it in the mineral oil.
Does this sound like a pain in the ass! YES IT IS!
But it sure does work! And the big thing for me is I haven't blown out a harp sense I've been doing this! You'll learn to treat them like gold! I use to think of them as disposable. Like everyone else! I believe it makes you a better player to try not to ruin harps!
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HarveyHarp
129 posts
Sep 24, 2010
10:51 AM
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no, but if you mix it together while sealing the combs you get high everytime you play. Of course I get high anytime I play anyway. That is why I play
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nacoran
2813 posts
Sep 24, 2010
12:44 PM
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arzajac, the key to avoiding anything from going bad is to use it quickly! Do big batches of combs all at once.
I wonder with the treatments that soak in if anyone has tried pressure treating. I know they used to use a technique like that to get arsenic deep into construction grade wood to preserve it. Arsenic obviously wouldn't be good for combs, but maybe the same technique would work. Anyone have a pressure chamber on hand?
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Nate
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ol'bosey
39 posts
Sep 24, 2010
2:05 PM
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I have found that I can milk a can of Watcos for quite some time. The trick is just to get a screwdriver or something and peel off the top layer that has dried in the can. if you're carefull it will just come out in one glob.
Watcos does seem to get a little thicker after you use the top half of the can,and makes it a bit harder to work with. I was wondering if there was anyone out there that cuts butcher block oil with anything to make it a bit thinner?
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isaacullah
1170 posts
Sep 24, 2010
3:29 PM
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It's the chemical drying agents that they add to Butchers Block oil that makes it stink. The drying agent is also what makes a perfectly non-toxic substance potentially poisonous. Try buying this type of oil:
It's from Ikea, and only costs $4.99. No chemical additives, hence absolutely NO smell, and NO toxicity. I've done ~5 combs in it, and have not had ANY issue with swelling.
FYI, my main successes with comb modifications are to mount Marine Band plates/covers to Blues Harp Combs I sanded and soaked in that oil over night.
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oldwailer
1350 posts
Sep 24, 2010
6:51 PM
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I really didn't like messing with the finishes, and I don't feel any close kinship with pearwood--so I just learned to make my own combs out of plexiglass or whatever I want--then I just flatten them, polish them to a nice shine--and throw the old one away.
I never did find a finish that I was happy with--most of them tasted like crap and the butcher block stuff I was using would take days to dry--so doing a comb with 6 coats was like a two week thing.
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jim
360 posts
Sep 25, 2010
10:30 AM
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I used a water-based clear lacquer. Non-toxic.
Yes, airtightness gest a bit worse. But it's just a marineband after all.
When I need real quality results, I go for acrylic combs or combs made by my friend Slava (exotic hardwood). Don't know what finish he applies, but they are stunning.
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