This is exactly the sound I am after in the "Embarassing" thread...
Is what makes this so raunchy the fact he is using a Tweed Princeton or his mic? I had heard that his bullet mic used a dynamic element.
An added bonus here is you hear a lot of single notes that aren't using tongue block specific techniques. Obviously those are all there too, but you can hear some with and some without. ---------- Mike
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx Subject: [Harp-L] Pat Ramsey's mic (was: Re: Video Clip of The Iceman) From: "M. N." Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:53:06 -0500 Cc:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick In NZ wrote: "... there is a Pat Ramsey clip on the same site in which he appears to be using a half gallon jug as a mike! Anyone have any idea what it is?Wierdest contraption i've ever seen."
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Here is a pic from the same set: http://www.suncoastharmonicaclub.org/gallery/Pat_Ramsey12-3-05/PR002.jpg
Pat told me a few years ago that it is a "Frankenstein" mic cobbled together by a friend of his using an American shell, some sort of dynamic element (he didn't know the details), with a volume knob added. I think the video clip made the mic look larger than it really is, though it is on the large side for sure. I've been seeing Pat off and on since 1987 and I've only ever known him to use two mics -- he made the switch to this mic after his old Shure died. TWO mics in 19+ years ..... talk about a non-gear-head! Some of us switch mics twice a month. LOL! MN
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2010 11:23 AM
I saw that and then saw a similar statement a while back on what I think was an archived chat log. So to some extent, his comes from the tweed amp. Yes? ---------- Mike
That tone is mostly him. There isn't that much breakup. You should be able to get a similar tone from the HG50. A small amp like a Kalamazoo will do more of the break-up work for you but part of it is technique. You have to "leak" a little of adjacent notes on the harp when playing single notes to get a little break up. And of course, 2- and 3 note chords help. Any good mic, CM or crystal can produce that tone. My CR and CM mics through an Avenger does.
I don't know what mic he is using but it looks HUGE! ---------- /Greg
Currently I favour the bone-dry sound like this (at 1:28) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbI0cMyyw_M I'm afraid I don't like electronic delays muddying up the sound (apologies to Adam). ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2010 11:37 AM
Personally, I'm with Greg on this one because the bulk of it comes from the player. When I was hosting a jam some years back, I actually brought out my real '59 Bassman using a JT30 and there were 10 different harp players, some with decent tone, mostly those whose tone, putting it politely, was god awful and none of them mess with any settings or anything else.
I also agree with Greg in terms of that slight bit of "leakage" and many times, some players try to get too precise, but no matter what, it still comes down to player no matter what the gear, pedals, anything else, you can throw in the ball game and that's always the bottom line.
The same thing tends to happen if you have 10 different players play the exact same harmonica as well because at the end of the day, it is ALWAYS the player and that's an X-factor that cannot be left out of the equation. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Here is me playing blues through the HG50 and Ultimate 57...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cAP0zReVi4
Here is an mp3 of me playing a silverface Vibro Champ with the same Ultimate 57 and delay pedal as in the YouTube.
I don't know how easy it is to hear the difference, but I think there is a huge difference in overall tone and I am the same player in each clip. I know the recordings are different, but there are differences in tone.
http://mikefugazzi.com/files/08 Time for Me to Go.mp3 ---------- Mike
I'm with Greg and BBQ Bob. Ramsey's tone isn't all that distorted, just slightly overdriven. Most of the sound is due to his technique.
Using a mic with a strong output and some sort of preamp can give you that sound (depending on the mic and the amp, you may not even need a preamp device).
If THAT is the tone you want, then you are talking dynamic mic into overdriven SE amp because THAT'S WHAT HE'S USING; and to get THAT tone out of your HG50, then you need your current mic (Ultimate 57) into a Harp Attack w/ drive cranked up into your HG50. It's that simple.
Because the Harp Attack IS configured as a tube SE amp output stage, not a conventional tube preamp stage like typical preamp pedals. That is the main reason why the Harp Attack works so much better for harp--Randy took an approach no one else thought of.
Unremarked by ANYONE in this thread is the fact that you can hear virtually NO reaction to Ramsey's right hand movements. You are not talking about a traditional tight-cupped sound here and you can DISCARD typical bullet mic considerations. Lord knows how that dynamic element is cobbled into that shell but he's DEFINITELY not working the sound of an element that's tightly sealed in and his right hand movements are just a habit left over from his first mic/Princeton combination--you can hear his hand movements actually doing something tonally on the Johnny Winter album. Notice where the volume knob is on Ramsey's FrankenMic? Tight cupping is almost certainly not a goal with the knob UNDER the right hand like that.
On the other thread, you mentioned Adam's tone. That is also a dynamic-mic-into-overdriven-SE-amp tone and to get Adam's tone out of your HG50, you run your current dynamic mic into a Harp Attack with drive cranked up & the tone knob rolled off into a digital delay (Boss DD3) into your HG50. That will get you the more compressed overdriven tone that Adam prefers. If you watch Adam, he ALSO has the old habit of flapping his off hand around with practically no effect on the tone, and he admitted at the Houston workshop that his rig gives pretty much the same evenly dark/compressed tone whether his hands are open or not--but it does that all the way up & down the harp and that's what he's after.
If you want more of the Butterfield/Sugar Blue biting snarl that Ramsey is using here, turn the tone knob on the Harp Attack up and it will do that tone PLUS bust out the overdriven "chirps" on some strong attacks that Zack mentioned in the other thread and that one can hear on a Champ that's driving the right way.
To understand the matter conceptually, take later Pat Ramsey, Adam, Sugar Blue, and YOU, Mike Fugazzi, and analyze how the PLAYING STYLE relates to the gear and tone. Working the ENTIRE HARP RAPIDLY at times and especially THE UPPER END OF THE HARP tends to work better with the wider, more even EQ range of a DYNAMIC mic because you need a certain even clarity regardless of where you are on the harp; and though Sugar Blue uses a Mesa Boogie instead of a small SE amp, that supports my view due to the Mesa's preamp distortion mimicking the SE overdrive somewhat.
In other words, even distortion and response all the way up and down the harp. It is analogous to Clapton's Bluesbreakers/Cream tones--"Sunshine of Your Love" on harp, anyone?--and Santana's rock guitar tone and other lesser rock/blues-rock distorted tones and that is NOT A BAD THING, just a DIFFERENT thing than classic bullet mic blues harp, but let's be honest about what it is.
Frankly, I think Big Walter Horton is flirting with this school of amped blues harp on the duo stuff with Robert Nighthawk that's probably a cranked white-knob Princeton (overdriven push-pull 6V6s are the next-best thing to overdriven SE), as far as historical precedent goes. I'd also have to give a nod to Butterfield, albeit routinely playing less of the harp. But it's Sugar Blue who really establishes it as an approach and Ramsey and Adam belong to that school. I trust I don't have to explain where Jason Ricci fits into that, by this point, you should be able to figure that out. Even later Paul DeLay probably fits in there, though he mostly plays with his hands open.
The technique people are talking about above is PRECISELY what works for dirt in specific places on the rig school I have analyzed above, but they are not giving sufficient weight to the overdriving small amps. You can't make your HG50 overdrive like that by itself unless you turn it up to hurt-people levels (which Jason, frankly, tended to do with his previous band, and augmented with pedal overdrive at times).
You MIGHT be able to work more old-school into this sound by using a Bulletizer on your 57 to emphasize hand movements' effects and working in some more of that old-school phrasing, contrary to Ramsey here. I don't think the Bulletizer would hurt the basic overdriven tone or the 57's range, just bring out the bottom-end-of-the-harp, thick/fat, tight-cupped sound you were talking about relative to the Mark Cameron song you linked to; add some mids on the AMP if you want to bring out a bit of that old-school midrange bump. To PERSONALIZE your version of the above school of playing, that might be a cool thing. It is sort of like crossing early-Sugar-Blue-backing-up-others with his style on his own records. You'd have to find out empirically whether you could keep whole-harp clarity and still do the big hand-wahs & all. That's why DeLay kept his hands relatively open a lot of the time, I think.
The reason Ramsey's tone "isn't all that distorted" is that he is not making much if any distortion happen AT THE MIC via traditional tight cupping. hvyj is right, you just hear a little overdrive--and that comes from the small amp. A Harp Attack + your current mic is the best way to get that sound into your chain, IMO.
I think the matter is very clear. Watching the NiteRail "Born in Chicago," my immediate reaction was "Just put a Harp Attack in front of that."
Edit = [your chain]
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2010 3:49 AM
"Working the ENTIRE HARP RAPIDLY at times and especially THE UPPER END OF THE HARP tends to work better with the wider, more even EQ range of a DYNAMIC mic because you need a certain even clarity regardless of where you are on the harp;"
FWIW, i completely agree w/ this statement, Although I've never heard it put quite this way before, it is certainly consistent with my own experience. I usually just say that I lose articulation if I play though a bullet mic, but htownfess analyzes this phenomenon in more detail.
I was shouting because after watching the Ramsey video I felt rather like John Cleese holding a dead parrot, as I think the correlation between rig and playing style is undeniable. I picked up on the dynamic mic thing when I went to a local jam for more than a year with just an Audio-Technica stick mic with a pre-Bulletizer on it and just plugged into the PA. Taking advantage of what it could do well changed my playing style.
I don't mean that dynamic-stick-mic and vintage-bullet schools are mutually exclusive where playing style is concerned--think of James Cotton and Charlie Musselwhite playing through the PA on tour for so long, or Paul DeLay using bullet mics with his suitcase rigs or Sugar Blue on bullets--but playing to the mic's strengths can focus your playing style in that direction somewhat.
@htownfes - Thank you a million times over! What an excellent and enlightening post!!!
I don't get to play much straight blues. The new band, who contacted me today to formalize things, isn't at all straight blues. BUT they want a lot of blues harp.
Pat's amped sound always mistified me (as he was playing a tweed that sounded like a tweed to me, but the mic didn't make sense). What you're saying makes total sense to me. I really enjoy using dynamic mics, and I did run very small amps for a spell. Like I've said before, for most my personal work the HG50 is perfect tonally as I have it set.
More food for thought, which is never a bad thing!
I've edited the comments that Littoral is referring to. I'll just say that Ramsey's harp playing and tone in this video doesn't do much for me.
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2010 7:40 PM
@Buddha: I didn't install the Captcha thing; that's something that Macwebsitebuilder decided to install on all the forums on all the websites they power.
I suspect that liju snuck in--a stealth spam-bot--when, as an overnight experiment, I tried making the forum an auto-approval thing, hoping that Captcha would catch 'em. It didn't. We're back to manual approval. That's the best I can do.
Adams spin is a far cry from "this tone". I saw Pat a lot given that we lived in the same neighborhood. I liked his work but confess a little confusion with Ricci's interest. I figured I was missing something. Maybe. To each his own, especially TONE. To that, hail BW, amp or no amp.
Well, apologies for disappearing, but I had things to do & not do :). By the time I got back to this, Adam had edited his comments way down to mainly Captcha woes, so I've no idea what all that was about. I definitely agree with him, though--when I watched this whole clip, I wondered why Ramsey was holding back or playing it safe, and why his amp(s)/tone didn't sound better than that. He doesn't range up the harp here--but he DID do that elsewhere later in his career, as well as the fast low-end runs he demos here. He claimed, at least, that from the start his playing style was influenced more by transposing guitar playing to harp than by traditional blues harp icons. NOT a stellar example of his later approach here IMO, though--awfully tight/conservative, like he's worried about being on TV.
I didn't mention delay as an obviously big part of Adam's SOUNDSCAPE that's not present here, as I thought that too obvious to need mentioning. True, Littoral, Adam's sound is a far cry from this, the delay alone makes it way different--but if you don't see the familial resemblance, you are missing something. Overdriven small amps, dynamic mics, playing the top half of the harp more of the time, non-harp phrasings--though the players I mentioned are tremendously individual, there ARE some significant generic similarities and a common correlation between rig and playing conception. I don't mean to go too far & overgeneralize in lumping the players in together, but I think it's important to recognize how taking advantage of a rig's strengths can shape the playing conception, and vice versa, because that illuminates the direction Mike probably needs to go in in this situation to get the sound he's after.
If I talk about Ramsey, Adam, Sugar Blue, Paul DeLay, it is four distinct SOUNDSCAPES when they are free to get their own harp sound--but IMO there are common elements worth heeding. There is a kinship in their musical conceptions, derived from a common drive to stake out new territory with their instrument. I am not talking about quality in the evaluative sense re: this particular Ramsey performance, but qualities as characteristics.
Btw, Mike--running a Harp Attack into the HG50, you might even clean up the amp a little by going to two 12AT7s instead of one, or further, as you can let the Harp Attack handle the overdriving and let the HG50 run cleaner than usual. Goal is to help overall gain stay down at benign levels so the rig doesn't bite back. That's a problem encountered when running any preamp into an amp with harp, nothing new about it.
Edit = [awfully tight/not stellar comment & quality/qualities distinction]
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2010 4:11 AM
hTown: You've obviously given all this a lot of thought, and I agree with the great majority of what you say. I'm wondering, then, where you'd place Little Walter and Big Walter in the spectrum you're elaborating. For me, that's a no-brainer: Little Walter obviously belongs with Pat, Sugar, Paul, and me. We know that he favored small amps, not large amps. (In a thread earlier this summer, I shared my discovery of a file in the Harmonica Project archive here at Ole Miss in which James Harman offers a photograph of Walter's Masco rig.) He often used a lot of overdrive of a sort that notably compressed the upper octave and, especially in conjunction with studio effects, had lots of sag, lots of shimmery harmonics.
Big Walter COULD use that sort of rig--I'm sure that "Easy" was played on one--but he tended to favor much less overdrive, especially on the high end.
As ever I'm keen to hear HTown Fess's considered thoughts on the subject, but have a few of my own too...
LW doesn't really belong with anyone else as far as "soundscapes" are concerned, he really was/is very different to just about anyone else. For me Gary Smith captures some of Walter's lightnes/deftness of touch (but with a fuller, darker more Cotton-like tone)as can Estrin, Dennis Gruenling captures the fluency, but still sounds harder, more direct to me. Piazza has done some great LW covers (particularly the Toddle & his work on "Feelin' Good with Jimmy Rogers), but he tidies everything up & is more precise (not a bad thing). Lots of other players have done great job of picking out the notes & even the timing (Bharath, Wilson, Oscher, Portnoy notably) but there's something about LW's looseness & the fact that it was improvised, constantly evolving through the song & "of the moment" that is hard to really capture. Most players since, sound like they blow much harder.
I don't know whether it's true that LW "preferred" smaller amps, many amps that he has been anectdotally linked to had 4x6V6 tubes, or 2x6L6 tubes, the Masco that Carey Bell inherited from Walter appears to me a ME36 with 4x6L6 tubes. The fact that these amps were "off brand", low voltage, cheaply made, cathode biased amps accounts for the fact that they make less power than later fixed bias amps, like fixed bias Fenders. At the time that LW was recording his seminal amplified recordings (largely up to '57...though Backtrack was '59) these features (cathode bias, low voltages) were even common to many Fenders at the time, especially in the early years, when there were simply no 4x6V6/2x6L6 amps over 25-30W.
There is little of LW's recorded output that sounds to me like tiny SE amps (Champs & the like), harmonics are typically smoother, heavier envelope of sag & decay, for which you need tubes pulling considerable current through the power supply, which points me towards push-pull amps.
LW most likely would have recorded with the amps that he gigged with, there's no reason that I have ever heard mooted as to why why he would use especially small amps for recording. Indeed, on some of the later recordings the amp's fidelity seems to suffer as if the amp is turned down below the sweet spot (Toddle, Aw Baby).
I think that a lot of Big Walter's "amplified" recordings were simply a mic plugged into the desk, rather than using an amp ('54 tracks with Tommy Brown, BW's own cuts like Back Home To Mama, Hard Hearted Women, Walkin By Myself w/Jimmy Rogers), certainly on the tracks recorded with Arbee Stidham there are 2 harp tracks, one overdubbed over everything else.
BW, of course, certainly did record with amps, like on the JOB sessions with Johnny Shines, the tracks recorded with Muddy & Otis Rush (the Muddy/Otis amp tones seems virtually indistiguishable from LW, judging by the number of players who get them mixed up!)...but I don't figure the use of an amp specifically to be an essential factor in BW's sound, compared to simply cupping a hi-z mic & running it to the desk.
So I think to a larger degree, perceived differences in likings for degrees & types of overdrive (between the 2 Walters) were merely by-products of the environment on a given day, where BW & LW appear to be using comparable gear, the tone (if not phrasing & timing) is reasonably ball park.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2010 7:43 AM
A lot of the high end 'chime' in LW's earlier recordings can be attributd to the reverb used, on tracks from the same session (as wet tracks) that were recorded dry, it simply isn't there. For example listen to "Hoochie Coochie Man/She's So Pretty" with Muddy (wet) & compare to "Chicago Bound" with Jimmy Rogers (dry)...the dry cuts lack the high end harmonics. Likewise, "Oh Baby" (wet, chimey) vs "Rocker" (dry, papery, kazoo-like).
If there's something I don't like about Pat Ramsey's tone, it's that it sounds like it's coming through a telephone. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2010 6:59 AM
Regarding Pat's tone...obviously a YouTube clip like that doesn't do him justice. I've gone and listened to tunes from all three of his albums. I hear that sorta "telephone" tone Andrew mentions. I hear that with Musselwhite too. I think that's a sound I normally associate with non-dynamic mics.
I also hear a compression that has to be unqique to small amps. Meaning, it may not be overly distorted, but the clean notes are still compressed and middy.
Going back to the HG50, I hear the sort of Derek Trucks-Allman Bros, Jason Ricci-cranked tone. It is firey and aggressive.
Compared to others on the board, I know next to nothing about telling rigs apart, but I can hear something with these small-amp dynamic guys that I don't with the large-amp dynamic guys. The large amp sound is perfect for my rock gigs. I like that I can easily clean up the tone or dig down and make it work.
On a small amp in a band setting, it seems to be all or nothing. Which would work for this other project. ---------- Mike
Unfortunately, I couldn't attend BHF last week. So, instead of feeling completely sorry for myself, I met recent DE lister Chuck Workman and his lovely wife at Ryan's Cafe in Bethany Beach, DE for a bite to eat and to watch the Pat Ramsey Band entertain us. From talking to a few others on our list, I had learned that Pat was noted for having played harp on one of Johnny Winters early LP's, but only Steve Messick had actually seen him play during the past year. Therefore, Chuck and I didn't know quite what to expect, but let's just say that despite Chuck's "ok" Reuben sandwich ;-), we most definitely WEREN'T disappointed by the music that followed.
I introduced Chuck and myself to Pat just a few minutes before they began to play and mentioned that we had learned of their gig on good 'ol harp-L. He knew about the list, said he had an active website, and wanted to talk more with us during a break, etc. Their opening number set the stage for 3 full sets of hard-driving blues from a well honed 4 piece band. What can I say? Only than that Chuck and I were blown away by Pat's licks, intonation, phrasing, speed, and most important for me, his absolutely amazing articulation. Some of you may already know that Pat was vocalist/harper in his former band, Crosscut Saw. His current band has been performing together for the last 2 years, with which Pat performs ALL lead vocals in addition to blowing some of the sweetest blues licks I've personally ever seen or heard. Folks, I'm serious about this now, and I rank Pat right up there with the great Kim Wilson, whom I saw live last August at the Poconos Blues Fest.
OK gearheads, here's what you've been waiting for. I had a nice long chat with Pat about his pair of narrow panel tweed amps, that's right, a Princeton that he miced into the PA that was connected via an A/B box to a late model ('58-59) Harvard (with 10" speaker). Pat admitted that both amps had replacement speakers but were otherwise stock, that with his no-name LARGE bullet style (?Astatic) mic with dynamic element, produced a sound that is as good as I've ever heard recorded or otherwise. Now I know what everyone has been talking about in regards to "that sound" that Fender tweed amps are capable of making. Gobs of distortion, gain, and an "edgey-ness" that is as sweet as I've ever experienced. One could hear all kinds of subtle nuances throughout his well polished harp solos.
Pat's only CD to date, is appropriately titled: It's About Time (released 1995), does a pretty fair job of recreating the sound I heard live from his band and includes 13 cuts, most (or ?all) of which were performed the night I saw them. Notable of which for me are: Allergic To Work, a hard driving boogie reminiscent of Charly Musselwhite's River Hipped Woman; a slow sonorous, King of Fools; an aptly titled Jammin' In The Jungle; and Hippie Song, which reminds me of a tune recorded by Canned Heat in the late '60's. All in all, nearly 60 full minutes of listening/jamming pleasure. Those who want to learn more about Pat's band and their CD, can check out his website: www.patramsey.com. Finally, Pat said he'd love to hear from some of his older and/or newer friends via e-mail (revh~ellsouth.net). Keep in mind that he's on the road performing frequently, so be patient for replies from him as he heads back to home base near Biloxi, Mississippi.
Pat Ramsey and the Blues Disciples do have a "Live At The Grand" cd, recorded just a few years ago. Rampat Records put it out, which means that it was self-produced so it's most likely not available.
My vote still goes with htownfess' assessment of the tonal quest.
Indeed Pat's live CD is (imo) quite superior to his studio album. I once hung with Johnny Winter at a William Clarke show at Manny's in NYC and he told me the story of how Pat had (as many others had at that time too) sent Johnny a recording of his playing which galvanized Johnny enough to contact Pat for the recording. I'll never forget the chimey clarity of Pat's playing on "Honest I do". I nearly swallowed my tongue when he went from high to low register in first position. His warble thing is very cool too. Interestingly I heard Mike (this threads author) do it in passing on a recorded solo once. I'd explain it better if I weren't just in from a show I do with Ashford and Simpson each week- the theater-ishness of the event is exhausting. d ---------- myspacefacebook
I built a tweed 5F2A Princeton for a guitar playing buddy of mine, it's pretty well a perfect recording amp for guitar players wanting Fendery tones, but I was never that struck on it for harp...until last weekend I listened to a friend play chromatic through it - it was simply heavenly, an outstanding amp for chromatic.
5F6H - Did you feel the tone control added much flexibility to the 5F2A? I was toying with building one, but I didn't know how much different it would be than my 5F1 clone.
I think the difference between 5F2A & 5F1 is more than slight. The 5F1 is effectively a 5F2A with the tone control set to 12, there's no way to cut highs & always a very middy tone & comparatively more feedback (not that the 5F1 doesn't work, it's just a bit limiting in comparison). The tone control makes the basic circuit that they both share plenty more flexible tonewise.
On a 5F1 it's a simple thing to make the far right input the high gain input (if not already) & use the 2nd input hole for a tone control, I wouldn't bother fitting the 500pf bright cap, that goes from the vol control middle tab to the tone control RH tab, for harp on a 5F2A.
Alternatively adding a 0.0022uf or 0.0047uf cap from the RH tab of the 5F1 volume control to ground, will ground out some highs & may suit some folks better.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2010 6:40 AM
Reasonably, yes, the RB's SS rectifier may sound a little harder than a Princeton with a tube (should still be ballpark), plus the harpgear comes with a 12AY7 rather than the Princeton's 12AX7, but that's easily changed & barely worth mentioning...(& yet I did anyway?).
Lol...I am checking out modding an Epi Valve Jr too. I've played stock before and it was a solid practice amp. That's really what I need is a small practice amp that can be miked in small rooms and still be pushed reasonablly hard.
I dislike 8" speakers, though. But I have some options either ways, especially if I get an extension cabinet or something. I dunno. My band plays as often as I want, so the gear gets used weekly. The "small" amp would be used at home and at one gig a month, so it'd get used too.
I would guess the HG wouldn't sound like the Epi. ---------- Mike
i like old princetons over champs too. must say though, that the 63 champ is pretty killer. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
So EV you got that much presence and volume and depth (aka: verve) from a champ because it was miked relative to the other instrumentation? I ask because it sure was full sounding! Great clear demos. d ---------- myspacefacebook
It was miced with a birdcage SM57. Band live in a room to mono. Partitions around the drums (one SM57 overhead and a stick mic under the snare, guitar through a little Gibson, and some old vintage mic on the double bass. Listen to it through decent headphones...
I was using my holy grail mic - 707a with black CR.
The second thing was a joke - straight into an Edirol, playing a Turner dynamic mic.
@Adam: I think 5F6H has studied LW's recorded output more impartially and perceptively than anyone and here as usual he is likely right about what LW was using and doing. I don't see a real kinship to LW either. IMO LW foregrounds that electric-guitar-like way that the amplification can make subtle playing nuances come across large and along with the rhythmic tie-in of what he's doing, he can be phrasing quite complexly even when relatively few notes are involved. Stuff like changing embouchure, shifting among single notes and chordal elements, moving notes forward & back to shift overtones, working his hands, and all those keyed to the rhythmic pulse and interplay of his band--that's why Bharath falls so flat for me, as reproducing LW's phrasing nuances exactly loses so much force when it's taken out of the context of the original moment, as Mark observes. Playing the same notes without the nuances doesn't do nearly as much either.
I don't know whether someone from the jazz world would allow the claim that it's complex phrasing in a way even if it doesn't involve a ton of notes, often leaves lots of space. That seems to me something that the best traditional blues harp players do not get enough credit for--I mean the best at their best, like LW in his prime, not old-school playing in general. 5F6H is right to cite Gary Smith, IMO, as someone who can do a LW mode successfully in that regard.
I was puzzled why you referred to LW's upper-octave playing as shimmering & compressed, because I'm not sure what you're referring to: apart from that one high-end run in the "Mellow Down Easy" solo, I don't recall where LW runs up into or down out of the top octave in a linear fashion--just recall the typical first-position stuff like "Ludella." If you meant the middle octave, the usual top end of LW's range, the compression there seems variable to me and usually produced by TB and cupping effects and very deliberately so. When LW does use a very distorted amp, like on "Rocker" or "Me and Piney Brown," IMO it just doesn't sound good or enhance his style--5F6H, is it possible that those two tracks are a mic straight in the board, deliberately high enough to distort constantly instead of variably [BW being the variable version]?
It seems to me that BW is more active running over the whole harp and I get more of what I would ignorantly call a "bop" feel from some of his playing, where BW is gonna play swooping/soaring linear runs over more of the harp without inhibitions about what the song's chords are doing at the moment (e.g., Robt. Nighthawk session). It doesn't seem like Sugar Blue's deliberate pushing of the chord extension envelope; BW seems more of an intermediate phase between LW's pioneering of playing swing voicing and Sugar Blue's successfully getting well out there, more analogous to Musselwhite trying to use more of the harp regularly in playing right on the chords--another transitional approach & I wouldn't be surprised if Musselwhite said it owed much to BW's influence. But BW doesn't adapt his rig to enhance that approach, he just plays that way on whatever rig it is when he feels like it, and he also adds a lot of LW's textural complexity when he slows down.
If I've thought much about these issues it's for the same reason that 5F6H has: trying to voice harp amps from scratch, and guitar amps, meaning practice in picking out some important elements in people's sound or desired sound and having some ideas on how to get there.
@Fess "When LW does use a very distorted amp, like on "Rocker" or "Me and Piney Brown," IMO it just doesn't sound good or enhance his style--5F6H, is it possible that those two tracks are a mic straight in the board, deliberately high enough to distort constantly instead of variably [BW being the variable version]?"
Rocker? I don't know, my gut says amp, mainly because of the papery aspect to the tone, puts me in the mind of one of those compressed fibreboard cabs (Premier/Dano type)...but I'm being hugely speculative here. "Me & Piney Brown", "Break it Up", "You Don't Know" & "Can't Keep From Worrying" (both the latter w/Jimmy Rogers) - yes, all these have had me thinking about the possibility of being straight to the board.
Generally, another thing that strikes me is that LW's recorded tone from session to session, was vastly different (e.g. only the "My Babe/Thunderbird session sounds like that particular session, likewise "Key to the Highway/10yrs Old/Close to you/Walking Thru the Park"). Just makes me think that there was something about the way LW played that, if anything, brought out the differences in the different rigs. Any player will sound different (even subtly) to some degree from session to session, but it seems particularly marked in his case.
