Jim Rumbaugh
276 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:32 PM
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This thread is in response to a clarification made in another thread.
What should be the DEFAULT meaning of 7th.
I find there is some disagreement and confusion when someone uses the term 7th without adding the term dominant, flatted or major after it. I even saw disagreement about this term among instructors at Augusta Blues Week.
Major 7th is the 7th pitch of a major scale. The "TI" before "DO"
Dominant 7th is 1/2 step flatter than the Major 7th. This is the note we hear when a "7" chord is played. EXAMPLE The C7 chord will have a flatted 7th, or Bflat note somewhere.
A flatted 7th is the same thing as a Dominant 7th.
Whenever someone plays a "7 chord", it always refers to the dominant 7th. If the chord has a "natural" 7th, it is always called a Major7th chord.
Therefore, when I say 7th, I always mean the flatted 7th. If I want the to fere to the natural 7th, I always call it the "major 7th".
What do you mean when you say 7th???
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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Buddha
2319 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:37 PM
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to me the 7th means OH SHIT did the rent get paid?
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"All is bliss"
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LeeEdwards
76 posts
Aug 05, 2010
7:01 PM
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"A flatted 7th is the same thing as a Dominant 7th"
That's where the confusion comes in Jim. They are not the same. Flatted 7th refers to the scale degree. Dominant 7th refers to the chord only as in 'Dominant 7th Chord'.
The C major scale: C D E F G A B C
Scale degrees: R 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
What note is your second? D.
What note is your third? E
What note is your seventh? B
What note is your flat/minor second? Db
What note is your flat/minor third? Eb
What note is your flat/minor seventh? Bb
If I want somebody to play the note that is the major 7th degree I will ask for the 7th degree.
If I want somebody to play the note that is the b7th degree I will ask for the b7th degree.
If I want somone to play a dominant 7th chord I will ask simply for a 7 chord.
If I want someone to play me a major 7th chord I will ask for a Maj7 chord.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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LeeEdwards
78 posts
Aug 05, 2010
7:26 PM
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@Buddha - Ha ha! Quality :D
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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nacoran
2428 posts
Aug 05, 2010
8:11 PM
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My rent is due by the 5th. Stop giving me the 7th degree.
This is about where my theory knowledge breaks down. A major chord is 4 half-steps, then 3 half-steps. A minor chord is 3 half-steps, then 4 half-steps. A diminished chord is 3 half-steps, then 3 half-steps. An augmented chord is 4 half-steps, then 4 half-steps.
So, a seven chord (a chord starting on the Ti) is diminished, right? Chords are usually signified by uppercase and lowercase Roman numerals in tab?
I Major
ii Minor
iii Minor
IV Major
IV Major
V Major
vi Minor
vii Diminished
What makes a chord dominant?
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Nate
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shanester
152 posts
Aug 05, 2010
8:26 PM
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I play by ear but I do know a little theory.
A major chord has 1-3-5 of the major scale. Minor has 1-b3-5, diminished has 1-b3-b5. Dominant or Major 7 are colors on top of major or minor chords, could be color on a diminished chord too, but would be written something like Gdim7.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 9:17 PM
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shanester
153 posts
Aug 05, 2010
8:30 PM
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In a chord progression, the V chord is the dominant that resolves and the IV chord is the subdominant.
It has to do with the IV calling for resolution and the V resolving.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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nacoran
2430 posts
Aug 05, 2010
8:39 PM
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That rings a bell, it's been 20 years since I took any theory. OK, Wikipedia says:
After tonic, the names of the remaining scale degrees (of a diatonic scale) in order are as follows:
supertonic — second scale degree (the scale degree immediately "above" the tonic);
mediant — third scale degree (the "middle" note of the tonic triad);
subdominant — fourth scale degree (a fifth "below" the tonic);
dominant — fifth scale degree (the most "pronounced" harmonic note after the tonic);
submediant — sixth scale degree (the "middle" note of the subdominant triad);
leading tone (or leading note) — seventh scale degree (the scale degree that "leads" to the tonic, this is also referred to as subtonic);
subtonic - also seventh scale degree, but applying to the lowered 7th found in the natural minor scale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_(music)
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Nate
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Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 8:40 PM
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shanester
154 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:02 PM
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Yup, there it is. That is all music is, subdivisions, worlds within worlds within worlds...
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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GamblersHand
208 posts
Aug 06, 2010
3:34 AM
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I recall that it;s called the "dominant" 7th because in traditional harmony the 5th chord (the dominant) is the only one in which the flat-seventh will be part of the scale
So for the key of C
The G7 notes are G B D F - all part of the C scale
The C7 is C E G Bb
The F7 is F A C Eb
The other two use blue notes - the flat-3rd and flat seventh, which is why it's much more common to play dominant sevenths on the I (tonic) and IV (subdominant) in blues music
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Diggsblues
433 posts
Aug 06, 2010
4:25 AM
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A flatted seventh is a scale degree not a chord.
In major the major 7th becomes a minor 7th
In C B becomes Bb.
As applied to chords:
A dominant 7th has it. A minor 7th has it.
A minor seventh b5 chord has it.
There is some good stuff in this book.
Tonal and Rhythmic Principles (Jazz Improvisation Series #1), Vol. 1 by John Mehegan, Leonard Bernstein (Preface by)
I'm starting to like Buddha's answer more and more.
For me it's oh shit the rent is late!!!!!!!
How do you guys communicate with other musicians. LOL
Don't tell me cell phone.
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How you doin'
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nacoran
2432 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:06 AM
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Apparently we really needed this thread! We can't agree on what to call anything. Diggs, I don't have a cell phone, so I still communicate with other musicians by land line, or online. :)
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Nate
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Honkin On Bobo
354 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:54 AM
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Head up to the concession stand for a beer before they shut off the taps, and settle in for the last few innings.
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Jim Rumbaugh
279 posts
Aug 06, 2010
3:26 PM
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So far I have not seen an answer (or opinion) to a question I asked in my first post
"What should be the DEFAULT meaning of 7th."
I would like to argue that the default meaning should be the flatted 7th degree of the scale.
1) If you ask someone to play the 7th, it is rare to want them to play the major 7th degree of the scale.
2)When we play a "7 chord" such as C7, it is the flatted 7th degree of the scale that is played.
3)A default value of the flatted 7th degree is consistant with the way chords are written. If you want the major 7th degree of the scale in a chord, you must specify maj7
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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Diggsblues
437 posts
Aug 06, 2010
4:25 PM
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1 The seventh is normal figured from the root note.
A seventh in C is B a major seventh. You usually have
to designate if it's Minor seventh Bb or a b7.
this part of thinking is more in an interval sense.
2 The seventh in a C7 is a minor 7th or b7 figured from the root this is what is common
3Yes a Cmaj the seventh would be a major 7th.
It would be designated Cmaj 7th. Most jazz players would know that.
The way your approaching it using the term
default is a bit confusing since this stuff has a
context that it is usually how it's figured from.
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How you doin'
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Jim Rumbaugh
280 posts
Aug 06, 2010
5:18 PM
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I'll concede that what I asked is just as confusing as the subject.
What about this?
If someone asks you to play the 7th, should you always ask."which one?"
I think that if someome talks about the "7th", you assume it means the flatted 7th degree of the scale rather than the 7th degree of the scale, unless someone says,"major 7th".
May I add, before this thread, I had never heard the term minor 7th. I now realize that it is another term for flat seventh degree of the scale. It's what the musician's I hang with call the dominant 7th, but the it seems the concensous here, is that there is no such thing as a dominant 7th note, just a dominant 7th chord.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 5:26 PM
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shanester
158 posts
Aug 06, 2010
5:49 PM
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OK, so to me the seventh is a scale degree, and it would be the actual seventh of the scale. I would expect to hear flatted seventh if that degree was referred to.
Where I am when people call chords they call either the actual chord name or they would refer to as the I, V, VI or whatever, without the suffixes of th, rd etc.
Context is really everything in this kind of conversation, though, and people speak differently, sometimes incorrectly, when I am confused I ask for clarification, and tend to not get hung up on who is wrong or right, but cut to the game plan.
Ultimately we are united by the common goal of making music.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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nacoran
2434 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:19 PM
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The symphony Beethoven wrote half way between his more famous 5th and 9th?
I think I'm with Jim. Maybe 7th can mean too many things to mean one thing without context. I think when I'm telling someone to play the note I'd say the name of the note. For the chord I'd say major, minor, diminished or augmented and the name of the root. For a flatted note I'd just play a flatted whatever. Of course, that you have to know the name(s) of the notes you are playing. I play mostly by ear. I have to stop and think sometimes what note names I'm playing, but I can figure it out.
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Nate
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