mr_so&so
342 posts
Jul 27, 2010
9:37 AM
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I've been jamming with a bunch of musicians lately, playing a mix of blues and non-blues, so I've been stretching out of the blues box. Often I do OK on a non-blues without knowing anything about the tune but its key, but I'm finding it would be much better if I had worked with it a bit beforehand to find the scale and best position to use.
Usually I can work out a tune by ear pretty quickly, as I did for a couple after my last jam night (maybe I'll do better on the fly, eventually). But I decided to have a look at harptabs.com to see if that would be a good resource to shortcut the process.
There are thousands of tunes tabbed out there, by the Harptabs community. However, all of the ones I've seen just show the tab itself, and don't mention what position it is. That is fine for me, because now I can tell. But how can a new player who has little or no music theory (as I suspect represents most users of that site) play a tune in a given key if he/she doesn't know what position the tab is in? Kind of prevents them from playing along with others, don't it?
How many of you people make use of the mountain of harp tab that is out there, and if you do use it, how?
I've commented on how I do it in
a previous thread, "Playing Non-blues". Edit: for some reason my embedded HTML link is not working....
P.S. Now also I think I know where the millions of mass-produced harmonicas go.
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Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2010 9:53 AM
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boris_plotnikov
178 posts
Jul 27, 2010
10:06 AM
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Standart musical notation is the universal language for musicians. It seems unlogical to use tabs instead of standart notation. Imagine you're playing with piano player. He'd tell you "please play g-f-g-a-c run", instead of "take your F harp and play 4 draw 4 blow 4 draw 5 blow 6 blow", as he doesn't have to know how to play harmonica. I think you can avoid musical theory only if you have perfect pitch and if you can play anything you hear with you harp without any problems.
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mr_so&so
344 posts
Jul 27, 2010
10:51 AM
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Good point Boris. I have to admit that I've avoided learning to read music notation so far. I tend to think in terms of scale degrees instead of a, b, c's. If someone told me to play a g-f-g-a-c run, I'd be lost. For now I do rely on harp tab. Yet another thing to add to the to-do list.
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ridge
59 posts
Jul 27, 2010
10:53 AM
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I always advise people against harmonica tab for a few reasons.
The biggest reason is that you're cheating yourself out of the development you gain from figuring a song out by ear. Creating that relationship between the music you can hear in your head and how well you can replicate it on harmonica is essential to becoming more fluid and better on the fly.
Second reason, which is also pretty big, is when I have looked at harp tab online, it is just plain wrong. Like really, really wrong. Example: One time I went to look at how Super Mario Bros. theme song was tabbed after I had figured it out myself. I was horrified at how inaccurate it was. I played it a few times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding it. Nope, just wrong.
I don't mean to blanket statement tabs and say they are all wrong, but even if they are "correct" in the melody or whatever, they still give no feel of timing or anything else like that.
If you know the songs that you're trying to learn, try and find them on youtube or pandora or some other music source and start playing over them. That's the fastest way to learn the song/melody that I know of.
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hvyj
494 posts
Jul 27, 2010
11:05 AM
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A visual reference is EXTREMELY helpful for those of us who don't always hear all intervals accurately when trying to learn a tune by ear alone. But, it doesn't have to be tab or sheet music. It can be degrees of the scale expressed as numbers or note names expressed as letters.
Boris is right--if you are working with competent musicians they are going to communicate in terms of note names. So, a competent harp player needs to know where which notes are on which harps. If you don't, it's hard to be taken seriously as a musician.
Personally, I am faster at knowing what degrees of the scale are which hole in which position. But if one learns to "spell" the scales, it gets pretty easy to transpose between degrees of the scale and note names on the spot, even if you have to think about it for a few seconds.
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mr_so&so
345 posts
Jul 27, 2010
12:21 PM
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@ridge, I agree that from what I've seen, many of the tabs out there are just wrong, and without some idea of what position they are in, they're pretty useless.
I can work songs out by ear, just not in real time yet.
It's easier for me to jot down tab when I work something out, rather than music notation, so that I don't forget it. So in that sense tab is useful to me. But I also write down all the notes of a tune in chromatic degree terms, so that I can figure out what scale is being used. That is pretty important to choosing a (perhaps better) harp position.
I take Boris and hvyj seriously too. If I keep at this and play with others, eventually I'll need to speak the de facto language of music to be considered competent.
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Jim Rumbaugh
268 posts
Jul 27, 2010
12:40 PM
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I say harp tabs are very useful.
Standard notation is fine if you are only playing a chromatic in C, but diatonics present a much more complex picture. With diatonics, a number system works good.
I agree that many FREE tabs are in error. But there are many good ones that can point you in the right direction. I say do not accept any tabs as 100% correct. Same thing for standard music notation.
An example of gold in tabs. I needed to learn a Civil War tune. I found it tabbed and it taught me 12th position.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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Honkin On Bobo
351 posts
Jul 27, 2010
1:57 PM
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I agree with Jim R, harp tabs are very useful and there's nothing wrong with using them. Look, not everyboby that picks up a harp is eventually going to be playing professionally or jamming/sitting in with pros. In a perfect world, sure you're better off being able to read music and knowing theory, but so what?
Some people take this instrument up and just want to be able to jam along with some friends or on their own to backing tracks or artists songs. And to do that as quickly as possible. If tabs help them, hey good for them.
One again it depends on what you want to get out of the harp. If you eventually want to be a cutting edge pro, you probably want to master some theory and work on reading music. If you've had zero musical training and you buy a harp and want to blow some tunes as quick as possible, tabs might be the way to go.
(EDIT Note: the next paragraph appeared after Mr. S&S's response below...i was editing as he was responding...you know the drill ;-)...)
To answer your Q Mr. S&S, sometimes I use 'em sometimes not. I usually try to figure the song out on my own and use the tab as a supplement to see if i'm on the right track. My biggest gripe with the "treasure trove" of tabs out there is that there never seems to be a tab for the song I'm looking for. My second biggest gripe is that the vast majority of tabs that ARE out there are for songs that, as originally recorded, had no harp in them. For example, I have no interest in playing the Flintstones theme or the Batman theme on my harmonica. But we can probably find 7,000 tabbings for those among the numerous "10,000 HARP TABS HERE!!!" websites. On the other hand, i'm very interested in trying to figure out what Steven Tyler is doing in Aerosmith's cover of "I Ain't got You" on their early "Bootleg" album. Good luck finding a tab for that. Which is why the Kudzurunner website was such a godsend. What??? Someone put together a vid that shows how to play whammer jammer? get the f___K outta here!!!!!!
Ok rant over....in the words of a very wise man....I now return the board to its usual "cat fight".
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2010 2:32 PM
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mr_so&so
346 posts
Jul 27, 2010
2:11 PM
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@Honkin, But if you don't know about positions, harp tab is not going to help you figure out what key harp to play to play along in a particular key of music. So you won't be able to play along to a tune you've learned that way, unless you luck out and the group is playing in the key the tab was written for.
I agree, tab is fine. I use it too. But most tabs you'll find provide insufficient information. I guess I started this thread to get that point across.
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RyanMortos
736 posts
Jul 27, 2010
3:25 PM
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You can learn to read music notation & find the corresponding notes on harmonica rather quickly. I think I learned to read music notation & memorize the notes on all 12 harps within 3 months. Course it sounds like a lot but once you know where the notes are on the C it lends itself to other keys. I stopped using tabs but when I did use them they seemed good, especially Adam's tabs. But there's still a difference from playing prewritten music & learning to impovise & mesh with other musicians- that's much harder, at least for me.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
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Stickman
380 posts
Jul 27, 2010
4:55 PM
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My experience with harptabs has been good for learning the melody for campfire songs. they are almost always in first position and give a basic Idea for the melody. As far as being wrong, I have seen amazing grace tabbed about 20 different ways. Is there a "right" way? On the other hand. being a wiki kind of site, you never know who is doing the tabbing.
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The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
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boris_plotnikov
179 posts
Jul 27, 2010
8:28 PM
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You don't have to memorize all 12 keys layouts. You have to know C harp as good as you can. If you have to play harmonica in another key you have to transopse music as other transposing instruments (trumpet, clarinet, french horn, all saxes) do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument
E.g. if you play 2-nd position blues harp in E with your A harmonica you have to think, you're plaing in G and you play blues scale as g bb c db d f.
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Joe_L
495 posts
Jul 27, 2010
8:42 PM
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It can be pretty helpful when you are first starting out, but I think listening and playing is much more helpful.
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boris_plotnikov
180 posts
Jul 27, 2010
10:17 PM
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If you don't have perfect pitch you have to understand what do you play, which step of scale, which chord progression is in the comping. Most intermediate harmonica players which even play gigs don't have any sense of harmony and tends to play the one blues scale over chord progression.
PS If you even have a pefect pitch it's useful too
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hvyj
495 posts
Jul 28, 2010
4:37 AM
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@Boris: I agree with you about how many harp players force fit the same blues licks over the music no matter what chord changes are being played. I also agree that it is important to know theory unless one has an exceptionally good ear--which I, for one, don't have. It really helps me to know or be told what the chord changes are and/or what scale(s) to work with for a particular tune. I am able to pick up a lot of material by ear, but by no means everything i need to know how to play.
BUT, playing pure traditional American blues, the idiom allows the same blues scale (the blues scale of the key the tune is in) to be played against all 3 chords. There is no "harmony' in the usual sense, but, instead the note selection from that single scale in relation to each chord becomes important. Chord tones or arpeggios from different chords are sometimes used, but, in the blues idiom, the scale itself does NOT change with the chord changes as is more often the case with non-blues material.
Certainly, there are more sophisticated ways to do it, and, of course, jazz blues is different. But it is part of the idiom of traditional American blues NOT to change the scale as the chords change, but, instead, to alter note selection from the scale in relation to each chord. This is why some musicians will sometimes say that blues has no harmony--I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but I understand why some musicians say that and what they are referring to.
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kudzurunner
1705 posts
Jul 28, 2010
5:15 AM
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I agree that most of the tabs out there are worthless. I've been saying this for a long time. Most of them don't offer rhythmic cues, and most of them are by players who can't hear all the subtleties.
I will speak a word in defense of my own tabs. I challenge anybody who has posted so far in this thread to download my tab for "Got My Mojo Working," using the link below. I'll refund your money ($2) if you email me and note that you've purchased it. Take a look at the second page of the tab, where I tab out Kim Wilson's solo on Jimmy Rogers's "Ludella" album. Find the original on iTunes. Listen to the solo, which is ferociously fast. Now tell me if the tab is accurate, and if it helps you hear some things that you missed.
I'm proud of this particular tab and I stand by my products. I can take the heat. If you think I've missed any subtleties, tell me what you think I've missed. The only qualification I'd make is: they need to be playable, teachable subtleties. It's possible that, at specific points, I've made very small changes from what KW actually plays in order to make his solo playable (replicable) and teachable. But in this case I believe I achieved 99.8% accuracy vis a vis the original. And Kim was playing like a badass.
I'm not asking you guys to put your money where your mouth is. No money required.
Here's the link for the tab:
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/7594911-got-my-mojo-working-gussow-pdf
And here's the link for the song itself:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/jimmy-rogers/id20759326
And here is a link for the preview to the video that accompanies the tab, in which I play the solo that the tab renders. You may want to download the song and compare the way Kim solos with the way I play his solo, just to make sure that I am, in fact, playing what he is playing.
http://www.tradebit.com/usr/asgussow/pub/9003/Got-My-Mojo-Working--clip-.mov
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2010 5:27 AM
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N.O.D.
63 posts
Jul 28, 2010
5:34 AM
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Yo Bro's i got messed up with a Dave Barrett instruction Book and CD i forget what song it was now,
my problem was I'm reading the tabs for the song then listen to him play it on the CD thinking What the ? is going on:(
i took it to my instructor well what i was reading wasn't note for note what he was Playing it was triping me up big time,
i think i still got the book i can't sell it because 2 pages are printed up side down:(
i payed AUS $34 for classic Chicago Blues:)
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And i got them:)
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Tin Lizzie
117 posts
Jul 28, 2010
9:32 AM
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I don't like tabs much. Sometimes I make one for myself. I use the Filisko tab method to make them. It's good ear training.
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Tin Lizzie
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mr_so&so
347 posts
Jul 28, 2010
10:10 AM
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@Tin Lizzie,
OK, you got me. What is the Filisko tab method. Mr. Google couldn't tell me.
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Jim Rumbaugh
269 posts
Jul 28, 2010
10:29 AM
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The Filisko Tab is Joe's system of tabbing that is Very accurate. It allows for rythem, chords,vibroato, even places to breath. It is not for the faint of heart. But it works better than STANDARD music notation, because it has means for the subtle variations that are unique to the harp.
I have tabs for 2 of Joe's tunes at home. I picked them up at his class last week at Augusta Blues week in Elknis,WV.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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Tin Lizzie
118 posts
Jul 28, 2010
10:36 AM
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I created mine with Excel. I would gladly share it with you if I can figure out how... don't like putting my email on the web due to spam. Gimme a minute here...
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Tin Lizzie
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Tin Lizzie
119 posts
Jul 28, 2010
10:41 AM
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Okay, here is a link to what the tab looks like on Flickr.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donaleen/4837795473/
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Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2010 2:17 PM
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Tin Lizzie
120 posts
Jul 28, 2010
2:13 PM
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And this is what a Filisko tab looks like (how he uses it)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donaleen/4838990106/
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Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2010 2:15 PM
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jaymcc28
297 posts
Jul 29, 2010
8:09 AM
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Joe's tabbing system looks decent but I've become acustom to Adam's. I find it very straight forward, very easy to read and understand and it also takes into account rhythm, breathing, etc. In fact, I sometimes find myself picturing a particular riff or section of a solo in Adam's tablature.
I am getting away from tabs and trying to teach myself to learn more by ear or by figuring it out on my own. However, sometimes a tab is a good place to start.
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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Tin Lizzie
121 posts
Jul 29, 2010
9:19 AM
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Here is a little piece of a Gussow tab and a little piece of a Filisko tab... Since both Adam and Joe sell their tabs, I did just a tiny piece and I chose the opening of Juke which most people know anyway. I just wanted to illustrate a little of how they tab. I hope neither of them minds.
I like both for different reasons. It does have a lot to do with what you are used to. And what you are trying to do when you make your own tab. Sometimes I make a tab just to remind myself how much of what I hear is about something besides the notes.... the attack, the textures, the phrasing. When I listen to something, I often think the notes are more complex than they are....
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Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2010 9:28 AM
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gene
528 posts
Jul 29, 2010
12:32 PM
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Joe's and Adam's tabs are the same, but Adam's takes less space.
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Tin Lizzie
122 posts
Jul 29, 2010
12:35 PM
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Well, they are not the same. It is true that Adam's takes less space. There are advantages and disadvantages to that. Sometimes I need space for what I am doing and sometimes I need something more compact.
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Tin Lizzie
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