ZoneIII
18 posts
Jul 08, 2010
8:47 AM
|
Newbie question: I'm going to order a Shure 545SD mic and one of the online sellers recommends that you also buy a special Hi-Z cable. Here is what it says on their website:
"20 foot Hi-Z cord, XLR connector on one end, 1/4inch phone plug on the other. Use to connect Astatic JT30, Blues Blaster, and Shure 545SD microphones to an amplifier. Be sure you get the right cord because not all cords with these connectors are wired the correct way, therefore the microphone will not work. These cords work correctly with these mics. Twenty feet long."
I have two questions:
1) Is a special cable needed for Hi-Z mics?
2) The Shure 545SD mic is a dual impedence mic that can be switched by reversing a connector inside of the unit. I'm wondering if that is what the seller is referring to when they say some cables are not wired correctly. If so, then shouldn't I be able to take care of that simply by reversing the connector in the microphone?
|
N.O.D.
13 posts
Jul 08, 2010
9:20 AM
|
Check this out Bro
BUY IT NOW
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310230973239&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
----------
|
Tuckster
646 posts
Jul 08, 2010
10:06 AM
|
Hmmm Hopefully Greg H. will put his 2 cents in. Is it now wired hi-Z? That type of cable will work. If it's wired low-Z,the cable will work,but only half assed. Query the seller about this to make sure what you have there.
|
Greg Heumann
634 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:23 PM
|
OK, 2 cents coming:
Yes - a different cable is needed for high-Z mics.
When an XLR connector is wired for low impedance, the signal is on pins 2 and 3, both independent of ground which is on pin 1 + shield. If you want to use your 545SD as a low impedance mic you want a standard low-Z cable like what is used for typical vocal mics. It will be XLR at both ends. You'll need to add an impedance matching transformer at the amp end of the cable to a) convert the impedance properly and b) convert the "balanced" wiring to "unbalanced" so that the ground of the 1/4" connector becomes part of the signal path.
When an XLR connector is wired for high impedance, it can be done either of two ways, called "Pin 2 Hot" (more common in Europe) or "Pin 3 hot" (more common in the U.S.) Either way can work, but the cable has to match the mic's setup.
If you follow the Shure instructions to set your mic up High-Z, it will be Pin 3 hot, like a BluesBlaster or the last JT30's ever made. Bu you can move the wires around on the back of the connector and set it up Pin 2 Hot if you already own such a cable.
The cable on eBay NOD pointed you too appears to have a regular XLR connector which would work for you, but the seller calls it "vintage" which is bogus. The older 545's had different connectors and this cable would NOT work for them. You'd also have to open the XLR connector up, or use an ohm meter or continuity tester to see if it is wired pin 2 hot or pin 3 hot.
----------
/Greg
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 12:28 PM
|
rharley5652
190 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:38 PM
|
Zonelll,.if your 545SD came with the correct Shure cord all you need to do is step 2 as you posted,.
Check out :
www.shure.com/idc/groups/tech_pubs/@global_managed/documents/webcontent/us_pro_545d_ug.pdf
----------
Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
|
ZoneIII
19 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:39 PM
|
I believe the mic comes (new) wired for Low-Z. I did look at the manual to see how it is changed to Hi-Z which would be no problem. But the problem is that I am now so confused that my head is spinning. :-) And I was an engineer for 40 years! In fact, I'm so confused now that I may not order the mic. LOL!
Seriously, though, maybe I should just order the cable I mentioned in my original post.
I am new to all of this but from what I have read, I would probably want to use the mic as Hi-Z. Is that correct? What would the difference be between using it as Hi-Z or using it as Low-Z with the adapter mentioned?
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 1:17 PM
|
rharley5652
191 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:41 PM
|
the mic comes (new) wired for Low-Z. Check out
www.shure.com/idc/groups/tech_pubs/@global_managed/documents/webcontent/us_pro_545d_ug.pdf
See section on impedance selection,.. piece o'cake !
----------
Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 12:52 PM
|
ZoneIII
20 posts
Jul 08, 2010
1:32 PM
|
rharley: Yes, I saw that. If you're referring to the part that talks about reversing the internal connector to switch to Hi-Z, that's no problem at all. But the stuff it says after that has me totally confused. I don't know if Shure means that you have to do that in addition to reversing the connector or not. At this point, my brain hurts! :-)
I may want to switch the mic to low-z (if I had already switched it to hi-z) for recording my acoustic guitar, etc. If all I had to do was reverse that connector, that would be no problem. But I can't tell if that's all I have to do from the instructions on the Shure manual and from what else I have read. And I don't know if I can use the same cable for both low-z and high-z. I'm simply confused.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2010 1:17 PM
|
MP
623 posts
Jul 08, 2010
1:44 PM
|
Zonell,
too much info. rharley is right. these mics are low impedence. (ignore sellers advice on cable)
gregg is right too. get a normal low imp mic cord.(XLR jacks at both ends)and buy a low to high imp transformer.
no wireing involved. if you want it low imp just disconnect transformer.
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 1:47 PM
|
rharley5652
192 posts
Jul 08, 2010
2:02 PM
|
Zonell,..Ya say "I may want to switch the mic to low-z for recording my acoustic guitar, etc."
Then The simplest thing would be to have 2 cables for that Mic ,.the XLR-XLR for low Z,. And An XLR- 1/4" male with Pin 3 wired hot,.
Then you'd do your switch in side the mic for Low z using the XLR-XLR cable ,.
Switch to Hi z inside the mic using the XLR- 1/4" cable.
----------
Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
|
rharley5652
193 posts
Jul 08, 2010
2:04 PM
|
The 454SD already has the transformer inside to go from Hi-Low Z,.They are shipped from the factory in Low Z state.
I agree with MP an Greg,..because Zonell may want to use both Hi & Low Z with this mic ,. The cheapest & easiest route is to leave er in Low Z an get the Hosa MIT-435 Impedance Transformer XLR Female to 1/4" M on ebaY for 12 Bucks + shippin <<> Item number:140396547236
----------
Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 2:31 PM
|
Greg Heumann
635 posts
Jul 08, 2010
2:29 PM
|
You cannot use the same cable for low and hi. Re-read my post above for a description of the proper cable for each case. The easy thing to do is leave it low impedance and use an impedance matching transformer at the amp/pedal end of the cable when you need it to be high. There is no difference in tone between the two. The output levels differ slightly, but not enough to be an issue. I am happy to help you with this - just contact me off line and I'll give you my phone number. You can email me greg at heumann dot com
----------
/Greg
|
ZoneIII
21 posts
Jul 08, 2010
4:03 PM
|
I really appreciate all your help. I'm still a little confused but I think I'm getting it. (I don't know what it is but I usually get this type of stuff easily but this whole lo-z/hi-z thing is giving me a brain freeze for some reason.) I like the idea of the transformer mentioned. I think the only thing that isn't really clear to me now is what Greg said about not being able to use the same cable. If I leave the mic in lo-z and use the transformer mentioned on an XLR/XLR cable, do I still need two cables? And if I don't need two cables, is there an XLR/1/4 adapter for when I want to use the mic in lo-z in something that only has a 1/4" input jack?
Also, if I leave the mic in lo-z and get the transformer, can I use any XLR/XLR cable or do I have to get a certain kind?
Well, maybe I'm still not getting it after all! :)
I would have no problem just getting two cables and switching the connector in the mic to change from lo/hi z but it would be more convenient to use the transformer if I am understanding this.
Sorry for these newbie questions and thanks again for all your help.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 4:14 PM
|
MP
628 posts
Jul 08, 2010
4:19 PM
|
one low imp cable, one low to high transformer, is all you need, period. everything snaps together. is no brainer.
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 4:21 PM
|
Greg Heumann
637 posts
Jul 08, 2010
5:51 PM
|
You only need one cable. XLR at both ends. When the thing you want to plug into is Low Z, it will have an XLR jack. Just use the cable. When the thing you want to plug into is high-Z, it will have a 1/4" input. That's what you use the impedance matching transformer for. It looks like this:
You plug it into the end of the cable and then plug that into your pedal or amp. Pretty much all XLR/XLR cables are wired the same way, for low impedance operation - any should work.
----------
/Greg
|
ZoneIII
22 posts
Jul 09, 2010
10:09 AM
|
Ah! Got it! I guess what threw me off was when you said you couldn't use the same cable.
Thanks for your patience. I haven't used an amplifier since the late 60s/early 70s so I didn't even know what the XLR jacks were for. I just thought they were a different type of jack.
Thanks Again!
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2010 10:13 AM
|
Greg Heumann
639 posts
Jul 09, 2010
7:10 PM
|
I said "you cannot use the same cable for low and hi" - I think I see the confusion. I meant you can't use the same cable for a low impedance mic like an SM57 (or 545 set up low Z) and a high impedance mic like the BluesBlaster (or the 545 set up hI Z) - but you were thinking in terms of what the mic is connected to. So let me be specific just to be sure it is clear:
Yes, you can use the same cable to hook a low impedance mic to a low impedance device (like a PA) or a high impedance device (like an amp or a pedal.) In the latter case you must use an impedance matching transformer.
/Greg
----------
/Greg
|
ZoneIII
24 posts
Jul 11, 2010
1:53 PM
|
Greg: In your first detailed post you mentioned using a transformer with a lo-z mic when used with a high impedance device. In your last post, you mentioned using a transformer for using the mic in a high impedance device. So my question is... is there a transformer for converting a lo-z mic for use in a high impedance device (guitar amplifier) AND transformers for converting a hi-z mic to a low impedance device (PA system, etc.)?
If the answer is yes, then I think I understand. If not, I still have a point of confusion.
Anyway, let me know if my thinking is correct here in these four possible scenarios:
1) If I leave the mic set for lo-z but am using it with a high impedance device (guitar amplifier), I can use a low impedance cable with the proper transformer on the amplifier end of the cable. I got this one! :-)
2) If I leave the mic set to lo-z and use it with a low-z device, I just use the lo-z cable. No problem.
But...
3) If I use the mic set to hi-z with a guitar amplifier and the same cable (LZ), is there a an adapter to use on the amplifier end so I can plug the cable into the guitar amplifier or possibly an adapter that I can plug into the mic so I can use a standard guitar cable?
4) Finally, if I use the mic set to hi-z with a lo-impedance device, is there also an impedance matching device available?
I'll probably just leave the mic set on lo-z and get the transformer you mentioned but I just want to make sure I understand everything. Or, if there is an adapter that I can use at the mic end of the cable so I can use a standard 1/4" guitar cord, maybe I will set the mic to hi-z and go that way.
Anyway, I apologize for these newbie questions but I just want to make sure I understand this completely.
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2010 5:56 AM
|
Greg Heumann
648 posts
Jul 11, 2010
4:31 PM
|
Yes, there are transformers for going from high-to-low. However now you need a 1/4" female and an XLR male - exactly the opposite of the device I showed you above. Although technically, both are impedance matching transformers, the latter is typically called a "DI Box". DI stands for Direct Input and is often used to connect a high impedance device directly to a PA. Sound guys usually have these in their kit bag. This is really the answer to your question at the top as well as the first part of Q4.
I don't understand the second part of Q4 - when the mic is set low-Z and you want to connect to a low Z device, you just use an XLR-XLR cable, as you observed in #2.
Your question #3: NO. You never use a high Z mic with a low-Z cable. The device you're asking for doesn't exist. You need a DIFFERENT CABLE - XLR at one end, 1/4" at the other, wired Pin 2 hot or Pin 3 Hot to match your mic.
In the end, you will probably just leave your mic set up one way or the other. If you set it up low Z, use the proper cable and plug straight into the PA, and use an impedance matching transformer to plug into your amp. If you set it up High Z, use the proper cable straight into your amp and use a DI Box to plug into the PA. The "proper" cable is different between the high-Z and the low-Z setup.
----------
/Greg
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2010 4:36 PM
|
MP
665 posts
Jul 12, 2010
12:56 AM
|
zonelll is just messin' with our heads.
(just kidding) good luck!
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
|
5F6H
241 posts
Jul 12, 2010
9:37 AM
|
Zonell - "I'll probably just leave the mic set on lo-z and get the transformer you mentioned but I just want to make sure I understand everything." If you are primarily using the mic with a guitar amp, then do the internal lo to hi-Z mod, it sounds better than the after market in line transformers.
Hi-Z mode - If the mic has come with a XLR to XLR cable you can just cut off the male XLR connector, solder on a mono 1/4" jack, pin 3 of the mic connects to the tip, pins 1 & 2 of the mic connects to the grounded lug. The cable itself doesn't know if it is high or low impedance, a lo-Z mic cable can work well with a hi-Z mic if wired as above. The difference is simply how the cable terminates prior to the amp or PA, lo-z is usually pin 2 hot, hi-Z is pin 3 hot.
Generally, hi-Z spec'd cables (good guitar cords) will have lower self capacitance to preserve tone as cable length goes up, as to whether this is an improvemnt on a lo-Z cable wired as hi-Z will depend on the brand & type of cable.
If you are mostly going to use the mic in Lo-Z mode then just buy a XLR-XLR cable and in in line transformer...it will sound OK-ish hi-z into a guitar amp, but not optimal.
|
Joe_L
448 posts
Jul 12, 2010
10:08 AM
|
5F6H - I have been told that the transformer in the 545 results in better sound from the mic in Hi-Z operations than using the mic in Low-Z and using an outboard transformer. Has you ever tried this comparison?
|
rharley5652
205 posts
Jul 12, 2010
1:40 PM
|
5f6H & Joe L,.
Amen ,.I've said it all along <> but in the end zonelll will have to figure out what he wants to do?
----------
Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2010 2:32 PM
|
Greg Heumann
653 posts
Jul 12, 2010
4:34 PM
|
I work with 545's all the time. When you set up low-Z and then play through an external IMT you're going through 2 transformers instead of 1. So there's going to be some change in the mic's response. However if there's a difference, it ain't much. There's a much bigger difference between 545's - especially between the current ones and the old ones.
----------
/Greg
|
mlefree
3 posts
Jul 12, 2010
6:51 PM
|
I'd be interested in Greg H's take on this, but I took a little different approach to my SD545s cable situation that doesn't use an impedance transformer. Actually I've done this to all my Hi-Z mic's.
As someone pointed out, the SD545 is very easy to take apart and one simple jumper adjustment switches it from low- to hi-z. See the Shure link above.
What I did is de-solder the connector at the mic-end of the cable that came with the mic' and solder it and a female 1/4" phone plug onto either end of a 2-foot length of high-quality hi-z cable.
That way, I can use a single hi-z guitar cable for all my hi-z mic's. I just plug one end into the female connector on the pigtail attached to the mic' and the other end into my amp. If I want to change mic's, I just unplug the guitar cable from the female-male 1/4" phone plug junction and plug in a different mic' similarly equipped with a pigtail. As a side-benefit, the junction between the female and male 1/4" connectors at the end of the mic' pigtails plays dual role as it prevents me from ripping the cable out of the mic' connector by its roots if I get tangled in the guitar cable on stage.
Works for me. 8^)
Michelle
|
Greg Heumann
656 posts
Jul 12, 2010
9:27 PM
|
Nothin' wrong with that, Michelle. You have your mic set up high Z and you chose a convenient connector scheme for you.
----------
/Greg
|
5F6H
243 posts
Jul 13, 2010
1:41 AM
|
@ Joe L - "5F6H - I have been told that the transformer in the 545 results in better sound from the mic in Hi-Z operations than using the mic in Low-Z and using an outboard transformer. Has you ever tried this comparison? "
Yes I have tried this comparison, for Hi-Z operation I would always use the mic wired for Hi-Z, rather than an in line transformer (even the Shure A95). The difference is significant.
|
MP
692 posts
Jul 14, 2010
2:18 AM
|
i agree with gregg, "it ain't much"
in 1970 -my first mics,i had 2, were LZ and HZ 545s. over the years i've had 4pin, 3 pin amphenols, a DY45 (short thick barrel)LZ and gun types and the new ones that are popular in fast food drive throughs. some of the older ones are better than others.
no matter how you set it up..............it sounds like a 545.
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
|
ZoneIII
25 posts
Jul 14, 2010
6:05 AM
|
Thanks guys. I understand it now.
Greg: When I read the last part of my 3rd question in my last post, I couldn't understand it either. :-) It must have been an editing error on my part. I deleted the last line of that question.
MP: No, I'm not just messing with your heads. LOL It's just that my head was messed up with all this LZ and HZ stuff that I never knew anything about or even heard of until recently. I really appreciate all everyone's help here and thanks for being so patient. I was losing patience with myself!
I'm going to post a separate question about the differnces betwen the 545SD and the SM57.
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2010 6:07 AM
|
MP
702 posts
Jul 14, 2010
6:03 PM
|
zonnelll,
i almost posted a farcial tutorial on impedence with bullshit formulas such as: pin 2 + pin 1 = 3, or pin 3.
pin 3 - pin 1 = 2, so 2 is higher > than pin 1(2>1) so pin 2 is hot. and so on.....
i was really just kidding. sometimes i've run across some funny mischief around here though. i know, cuz i was the perp.
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
|
Sony Boy III
6 posts
May 24, 2013
10:35 PM
|
I'm confused, I also bought a new 545sd and will receive it soon. The shure NEW manual said to wire the mic for Hi z like this:
CONNECTIONS
When using the microphone with a balanced input, pins 2 and 3 are the audio signal car- riers. When using the microphone with an unbalanced input, use a cable wired with pin 2 as the signal carrier and pin 3 connected to the cable shield (ground), such as the Shure C20AHZ high-impedance cable.
|
Sony Boy III
7 posts
May 24, 2013
10:55 PM
|
Pin 3 must be wired to the ground toguether with the shield? Pin 2 will be conected to the tip of the 1/4 jack?
Last Edited by Sony Boy III on May 24, 2013 11:10 PM
|
Greg Heumann
2156 posts
May 25, 2013
7:43 AM
|
Really? That will be sure to confuse the hell out of everyone - because if your manual quote is correct, Shure has recently changed their recommendation/setup for unbalanced/high impedance to Pin 2 Hot from Pin 3 Hot.
EITHER will work - but the cable has to match the mic. Low impedance XLR is standard all over the world, and is wired "balanced". Ground/shield of the cable is wired to XLR Pin 1, and to the "case" of the XLR connectors. The shield is NOT part of the signal path. The signal travels on 2 wires inside the shield which are connected to pins 2 and 3 of the connector. This system has superior noise shielding.
By contrast, there are 2 standards for wiring a high impedance mic with an XLR connector (cable has 1/4" connector at the other end) called "Pin 2 Hot" and "Pin 3 Hot". These are called "unbalanced" wiring. Here, the cable needs only one wire inside the shield, and it connects the tip of the 1/4" connector to either pin 2 or pin 3 of the XLR connector (hence the names above.) The shield is used both as ground and as the signal return.
----------
----------
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
Greg Heumann
2157 posts
May 25, 2013
7:49 AM
|
P.S. - I just looked at the 545SD manual at http://cdn.shure.com/user_guide/upload/469/us_pro_545sd_ug.pdf and its instructions for high impedance say the signal is on Pin 3, not Pin 2.
YOU can set it up any way you want, but a default high-Z 545SD configuration is Pin 3 Hot, like it always has been. If you have a Pin 3 Hot cable it will work. It is not necessary to ground Pin 2 in the cable. If you do, it will still work. Most manufacturers DON'T do this because then it won't work at all with a low impedance mic. (It is wrong to use this cable with a low impedance mic but at least you will get some signal if you do - provided pin 2 is not connected to anything.)
----------
----------
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on May 25, 2013 7:49 AM
|
Sony Boy III
8 posts
Jun 01, 2013
3:43 PM
|
Thank you so much Greg! Now I could understand how to wire this mic. Shure made a mess with such a simple instruction!
|
Greg Heumann
2172 posts
Jun 01, 2013
4:09 PM
|
Hah! They shure did. Wire a few hundred of them and you finally get it!
----------
----------
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
colman
249 posts
Jun 02, 2013
3:09 AM
|
And if you want that 545 to really cook get via "greg`s " Bulitizer...I did and they open up alot to hand jive with amp harp...
|
