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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Who Pioneered 3rd Posistion?
Who Pioneered 3rd Posistion?
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DirtyDeck
74 posts
Jul 05, 2010
6:29 PM
I remember when, as a fledgeling Harpist, I heard the harmonica solo on "I Just Want to Make Love to You", by the late-great Muddy Waters. I was astounded. To my virgin ears it sounded like something else completely, besides it being a great piece of playing, here was this almost otherworldy harmony going on - a selection of notes and melodies which, previous to this, I had never heard played in any blues song!

Now, of course, I am in my second year of playing, and am aware that Little Walter(right?) was employing the use of 3rd posistion on said track! My question is this - who discovered 3rd posistion and popularised it's use? Who was the first to commit it's use to a popular recording? And who is the greatest, all-time, 3rd posistion player?

Much love.
ZackPomerleau
913 posts
Jul 05, 2010
9:30 PM
Pat Missin's site I believe says Little Walter did it first. Now, it depends what you mean. Do you mean chromatic or diatonic playing?
joeleebush
28 posts
Jul 06, 2010
4:15 AM
Little Walter showed me some advanced 3rd position work in 1953. I was 15 and as far as I know there were very few white blues players on the circuit back then.
I'm sure Musselwhite was playing over there in the country and maybe Portnoy up in Chicago..although Jerry is about 5-6 years younger than me. I've never met either of them.
I was only a kid but as well as I recall there weren't any others out on recordings blowing in 3rd at that time.
I had been using it a little but didn't know that's what it was called. Communications were so far removed from what they are today..in fact I didn't even know what the term "second position" meant. The few blowers that were around Atlanta back then just called it "crossways".
There was a guy here, who I had many a blues battle with, named "Doctor Harmonica Zack". Zack fooled around in 3rd some...in fact he had a local record called "Sneaky Dan" on the NRC label with him in 3rd. I guess that was around 1952.
Its an interesting topic.
5F6H
227 posts
Jul 06, 2010
5:07 AM
"That's It" was Walter's first recorded track in 3rd (Jul '53). Though it was unnissued at the time, no doubt due to the key change issues.

Joe, Jerry Portnoy didn't take up the harp until his late 20's, around 1970?.

There were some claims that Snooky Prior was playing 3rd before or around the time that LW was...though I don't know if there is any recorded evidence of this...not that recorded evidence is the "be all & end all" - I guess there could be dozens of guys who bought harps and just started with the draw 1 as the root note, before discovering cross harp, a friend of mine just started playing that way & then had to learn 2nd position.
tmf714
175 posts
Jul 06, 2010
5:24 AM
Jerry Portnoy started playing in 1967 at the age of 24.
He joined Johnny Young for a while,then went on to play with Sam Lay and John Littlejohn.
He was close friends with Big Walter Horton.
DeakHarp
70 posts
Jul 06, 2010
5:42 AM
James cotton recorded Walking in the park with Muddy Waters ..In 3 Pos ..... I would say that Gorge Smith was one of the best at this ....Then William Clarke .. who was a close friend of mine ...
5F6H
228 posts
Jul 06, 2010
5:49 AM
Deak, that's Little Walter on Muddy's Walkin' Through The Park/19yrs Old/Close To You, same session as LW's Key to The Highway/Walking On/Rock Bottom.
Brendan Power
42 posts
Jul 06, 2010
8:17 AM
Not sure who pioneered third position, but there is no finer modern exponent of it than Jason Ricci. Check out this recent video (he starts in 2nd, but switches to 3rd for his solo at 3:20):



Adam Gussow has some nice stuff in 3rd on his forthcoming CD too ;)

Brendan Power
WEBSITE: http://www.brendan-power.com
YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/BrendanPowerMusic
tmf714
176 posts
Jul 06, 2010
9:03 AM
Kim Wilson is at the top of the list for blues players.

5F6H
230 posts
Jul 06, 2010
9:10 AM
TMF714 - With you on that one, "She's My Baby" off That's Life is a great example too.

Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2010 10:17 AM
Greg Heumann
627 posts
Jul 06, 2010
9:11 AM
Wow - hadn't seen that particular video of Jason. Brendan is right - that's probably the best 3rd position solo I've ever heard. Not only is he using the hell out of the harp, his rhythms on this tune are outstanding.
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/Greg

BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Joch230
226 posts
Jul 06, 2010
9:46 AM
Wow...Shawn really tears it up on guitar on the Jason vid.

-John
Chinaski
103 posts
Jul 06, 2010
10:01 AM
Fark, that is an evil third position solo in Jason's vid..
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DeakHarp
80 posts
Jul 06, 2010
10:20 AM
5F6H yes yur right ... for some reason i was thinking of the Hard Again tour .. but posted that ... my bad
DirtyDeck
75 posts
Jul 07, 2010
6:22 AM
Zack, I'm not really sure what I mean :) I assumed that they were pretty much the same thing?

I remember, quite a while ago, somebody posted a youtube documentary on here. It was about the life of some little-known harmonica player whose name escapes me, in that clip he played some mean 3rd posistion on a big-ass chromatic. Real old black guy, played with a young(er) white guitarist?
DirtyDeck
76 posts
Jul 07, 2010
6:54 AM
Brendan, thanks for that clip, I enjoyed it. I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Jason's playing, though I respect him immensely. His playing is original, I give him that, but he strikes me as Player first, Artist second. Was very impressed by his overall performance, and especially his singing.

I myself prefer the old blues stuff, like Kim does there. Perhaps not very original, but boy does it sound good!
Ev630
660 posts
Jul 07, 2010
7:19 AM
The person doing the most original work in 3rd position at the moment is Kim Wilson building on George Smith. Listen to "Got To Let You Go" on Smokin' Joint. It's miles in front of the 1960s 3rd position blues stuff that most guys are copping (which is nonetheless cool).
Sandy88
60 posts
Jul 07, 2010
10:20 PM
Is Jason wearing a dress in that video?
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WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
Buddha
2207 posts
Jul 07, 2010
11:11 PM
@sandy

do something productive like reading this article.

Tired Gay succumbs to Dix in 200 meters

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6622I420100703
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"All is bliss"
LittleJoeSamson
331 posts
Jul 07, 2010
11:40 PM
I know that I'm hopping in late here...but AFAIK early harmonica had LOTS of minor and relative minor keyed songs. For example, "Red River Valley" ( the most copied harmonica song in film ) is actually a mournful ballad....played most likely in 4th position on chromatic. It is seen in early "talkies" with the cowpoke pulling out a MB, but was prolly Foleyed or overdubbed. ( I'm buddies with a long time sound tech for Warner Bros. ).
Early recordings of minor keyed harmonica are scarce.
Rhythm Willie, and later...William McCoy did versions of "St. James Infirmary", that is a minor keyed song...but it is unknown ( to me ) whether they played with a diatonic in 3rd, or used a chromatic.
Of course, Larry Adler did many minor keyed songs...but he was almost exclusively chromatic.

Big Walter did many minor songs...to my opinion, undoubtedly in 3rd pos. , but the extant recordings have disappeared to all public knowledge.

Now, he may have emulated others before him; but I consider BW to be the innovator of 3rd position Blues.
Even Little Walter did not do much minor songs in diatonic.

Many "Eastern", Klesmer, Gypsy songs were/are minor keyed...and their origins are traditional. THE ORIGINATORS are lost to history.

"Saint Louis Woman", by W.C.Handy...accredited as the FIRST Blues song was undoubtedly adapted from previous songs.
OK, he STOLE it...but he did poularize it...and the GENRE.

Ask Peter "Madcat" Ruth about this ( he has some GREAT recordings of this, BTW ). He would know even more of this history than I do.

J 5&10's
LittleJoeSamson
332 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:04 AM
tmf714: many thanks for posting that. Kim is one of my heroes. Simply the BEST at whatever he does.

Annecdotally, this vid shows KW BEFORE he went cleanhead! I did it before him ( that's neither here nor there ). BUT, when I would then be at a show, later...many times I was mistaken for Kim.
One time in particular, one of his High School buddies had me confused. He asked me to play "Time is Tight" during a break from the show. SO, I pulled out a harp and did a quiet acoustic version.
Just then, Kim walked past, and gave me a smile. His buddy did a tennis match bobble head. HA!
wheel
5 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:33 AM
LittleJoeSamson, Rhythm Willie did not play 3rd position. Pat Missin has a good article about Willie on his site.

One of the best 3rd position I've ever heard is "Blowin The Familiy Jewels" by William Clarke.
This song has no overbens,only few bends, but it is so inventive, cool and melodic.

Jason's video is great!

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http://www.youtube.com/user/wheelharp
wheel
6 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:35 AM
Im not sure but as far as I remember in the book "Blues with the feeling:Little Walter story" I have read that Little Walter was the first who played in 3-rd postition.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/wheelharp
LittleJoeSamson
334 posts
Jul 08, 2010
1:04 AM
Hey, wheel...thanks for the input. It also ocurred to me that Jelly Roll Morton recorded a STRONG, slow blues minor song called, "Slow Drag". 1923 ?

Biederbecke and Trumbauer later did "I'm Coming, Virginia", which modulated into minor scales, but no harmonica.
joeleebush
30 posts
Jul 09, 2010
8:38 AM
I just had a memory recall about a very old instrumental I used to do that was originally done by Slim Harpo in 3rd. (It was around the time he was hitting with "Raining In My Heart")
It was called "Snoopin' Around" and as well as I remember it was in key of D and he used a C diatonic in 3rd and somewhere in there I think he switched over to a Chromatic in C. At least that's what I did..switched into that Chromatic 260.
I cant remember the year or exactly how the tune went but it was a long time ago, I know that much.
I've forgotten it by now, naturally.
Bet there is a discographer on here who can nail it all down.
groyster1
203 posts
Jul 09, 2010
6:47 PM
QUESTION FROM THE QUESTION MAN
I understand and have experienced that third position or slant harp is useful for blues in minor keys what about 4th position and beyond? are they useful for blues or some other type?jazz?celtic?
boris_plotnikov
149 posts
Jul 10, 2010
2:20 AM
groyster1
I play 4th position very often. I think more often than in 2nd. It's good for melodies and jazz. It's relative minor to 1st position.
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Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 2:20 AM
htownfess
133 posts
Jul 10, 2010
4:13 AM
@joeleebush: "Snoopin' Around" came out in 1961 on the Raining in My Heart album, while "Blues Hangover" was a 1960 single. Both of them seem to feature a 364 MB in C soloist tuning (or a school band/Educator soloist?), rather than a chromatic or C diatonic, but Slim Harpo is definitely another early exponent of that "3rd pos. chromatic" blues sound and probably used the 364 for it on other tunes like "Yeah Yeah Baby." The (mistitled) "Moody Blues" on the live 1961 stuff sounds like a soloist 364 to me too. But I think he did use 3rd pos. diatonic on "I've Got to Be with You Tonight" toward 1970, to name one tune that stumped me good when I was starting out.
barbequebob
1010 posts
Jul 10, 2010
10:11 AM
LW wasn't the first to use 3rd position by a long shot but he was one of the very first black bluesmen to use a chromatic, playing it in 3rd position.

3rd position can be used in a major blues, especially in the lower octave, but you HAVE to get the accuracy of your bends COLD to make it happen properly.

Htownfess, the 364 in Solo tuning wasn't available until the early 80's, being used as a replacement for the Marine Band Soloist/School Band model, which was discontinuted in 1975 and that model is closer to the size of a normal MB with two more holes. The 364S, from my experience, is a lousy substitue for the original MB Soloist/School Band model, which I have two of (NOT for sale), and those out play them big time.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
joeleebush
33 posts
Jul 10, 2010
11:31 AM
@htownfess
I have used that School Band (I only have one left) for a lot of years, especially on Blue Lights and now that you mention it, I believe that's what I did way back there when I was doing Snoopin Around instead of going into that 260 chromatic. I probably did both depending on which one I picked up out of the case. Been a long time. I bet you're right though about Harpo using that School Band and not a chromatic.
Wonder why Hohner discontinued that School Band years ago??...I always thought it was a very useful tool here and there.
Barbecue Bob is correct in that you can play 3rd position lines against a D major band track (it doesn't always HAVE to be D-minor). But you gotta know what it's all about and as he says..hit those bends dead on the money or you're into the ditch.
When I play "Harpburn", the band stays in D major while I am up and down that 64 in 3rd.
Now, in my opinion, THESE discussion items are the things that make this forum worthwhile....instead of "who shot john" crap about various players and their love affairs or how "kewl" they are (as the kids like to pronounce and type the word)
But again, that's just an old man's opinion.
MP
636 posts
Jul 10, 2010
11:55 AM
the MB Soloist/School Band was a great harp for 3rd pos. i think they only came in C ,but maybe G also, though i've only seen C.

every now and then i look on e-bay for this model.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
barbequebob
1011 posts
Jul 10, 2010
12:30 PM
According to my buddy Pat Missin, the original MB Soloist only came in C but the School Band came in C and G as well. The twoMB Soloists I have I bought as part of a long out of print LP/harmonica instructional kit by Cham-Ber Huang called "Let Me Teach You To Play Harmonica," and both had pre-WWII Soloists in them and I got two of these BRAND NEW back in 1981 at a now defunct music store that found an entire unopened shipment of them they just put out. After I got the two, I went back to the store 2 weeks later and they were all gone.

The School Band was discontinued some years before the original MB Soloists were and they were originally for students (chromatic was actually being taught in some public schools way back when) and when the schools stopped teaching that, they discontinued it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
MP
637 posts
Jul 10, 2010
1:17 PM
i remember me and pete sheridan fooling around with mics and amps at my shop and he pulled out a soloist and said,"tell me this doesn't sound like a chromatic"

i was impressed.

i once saw james harmon pull a huang out of his cigar box and play 3rd on it. i think it may have been a knock off of the soloist.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
htownfess
134 posts
Jul 10, 2010
4:03 PM
Ten years ago I had a neighbor whose high school in a small western Nebraska town had gone to state finals in the harmonica band competition in the early 1930s, and she recalled using a soloist-style tuning, likely a School Band. Don't think those schools could afford to own a lot of horns, etc. for their bands. She no longer had the harps but I gladly settled for the stories of life out there back then (my mom's people were from that area).

Bob, thanks for the info on production history. I've got a 1951 Hohner U.S. catalog here, and it shows a C "soprano" 12-hole School Band that is 1/4" longer than a 10-hole MB, and a "larger and heavier" School Band model in a C "tenor" tuning, "one octave lower." The tenor version is the same length as a 364 and looks much like a 364 with the cover stamped differently, but *may* be bigger front to back. Both are Model 1816; covers stamped "S" for soprano and "T" for tenor; no G tuning listed at that time. $2.50 retail for the soprano, $3.00 tenor; $1.50/1.80 apiece to the dealer.

No 364 soloist listed in the 1951 U.S. catalog. So my question would be whether the tenor School Band would be an octave lower than today's 364 soloist, something like a baritone 12-hole chromatic. That would be very cool--was that the legendary "Educator" model later on that I've only heard of, never seen? Today's 364 soloist's 1D is the same as 1D on a regular C diatonic, but the soprano School Band probably uses the 1896-size (regular C diatonic) reeds to achieve the small size for that register, and thus I would guess Slim Harpo is using that harp, whether they still called it soprano tuning or not, because "Snoopin' Around" doesn't sound like a low octave tuning.

The 364 soloist I have is probably a dozen years old, yellow brass reeds, and is a fine harmonica--just too big to cup in the style that would have been possible with a soprano School Band. It has the nearly-vertical mouthpiece-side coverplates that some people can't stand, but tall covers are needed to prevent coverstrike w/ the longer reeds. Benefit of the longer reeds is that they're louder. Back in 2000 when they were around $35 or less online, 364 soloists really would have handled most blues players' needs just fine for tunes in D. At closer to $70 today, it's no longer a bargain starter harp.

I have a ca. 2000 Hering Master Solo C that is 1/2" longer than a 10-hole MB and probably much like a soprano School Band, once I took the part-valving off. Not very loud even after embossing, but somewhat easily cupped, and currently filling in till I repair my 280 and 6148. Sorry, did not check on current availability of this model, think they have renamed it, but it shows me why a soprano School Band would be cool.

I also saw Harman use a Huang Soloist back in 1995; I suspect his instrumental "Torqueflite" on the Black and White album uses the Huang. They changed the coverplates on those to an even lower profile around 2000 and the coverstrike problem got even worse. They're not very loud (thinner reedplates), suffer from Huang reed issues, and are longer like a 364, but they were a cheap way into that D chromatic blues sound.

Both the Huang and the Hering Master Solo did not have a ridge along the back edge of the coverplate, so they're a little slippery to grip in that sense.

I would encourage people to look into C soloist harps if they want a cheaper way to get the 12-hole chromatic sound in D. Do the 4-hole/5-hole TB a la LW and Geo. Smith and you can fool people, with the addition of Db and Ab bends for a diatonic feel. Smaller than a chromatic if you need to travel light to sit in or something. Hole spacing and coverplates can take some acclimation, but worth it. YMMV.

Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 4:04 PM
kudzurunner
1645 posts
Jul 10, 2010
4:38 PM
@JoeLeeBush: You dropped a bombshell in your earliest post above, and I don't want to let it slide. "Little Walter showed me some advanced 3rd position work in 1953."

Whoa, Nelly! You were a 15 year old white kid in 1953 and Little Walter was showing you stuff? That's the year after "Juke" came out. He was the biggest thing that the blues harmonica had ever seen, right around then.

If you wouldn't mind, please start another thread entitled something like "My memories of Little Walter" or "Hanging out with Little Walter," and just reminisce a little. Tell us how you met him, what it was like hearing him live. Do you remember the audience reaction? What sort of venues did you encounter him in? Did you hear him play "Juke" live? What was he like, as a person? He would have been 23 at that point, and you were 15; a young black man--and R&B sensation--and a younger white teen. I honestly didn't know that there were ANY white guys blowing Chicago-style harp at that point, much less learning from guys like LW. So your post has blown my mind.

Please reminisce for us a little, in a new thread. I'm sure I'm not the only person who will be genuinely fascinated by every detail of what you're able to share. I was going to create a new page dedicated to Little Walter, because Richard Hunter has given me permission to reprint an important article that he wrote on LW. You have my word that I'll link your reminiscences directly from that page.

I'll also give you free admission to Hill Country Harmonica next year if you'll come on down to Mississippi and share your memories in person. Maybe expenses, too. Maybe pay. We'll work it out. Email me about that: asgussow@aol.com.

Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 4:44 PM
kudzurunner
1646 posts
Jul 10, 2010
4:46 PM
Joe Lee: I love your playing. Found some stuff on line. I've put you in the honorable mention list on my all-time harp greats. My bad for not knowing who you were.
DutchBones
373 posts
Jul 10, 2010
5:17 PM
Joe Lee Bush - That's fantastic playing, Joe! I'm listening to your sample tunes on your homepage right now, and the chrom work on "Black Night" is given me the chills (in a positive way) .. Your chromatic playing reminds me of George "Harmonica" Smith (btw, Black Night is one of my all time favorites)
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DutchBones Tube
KingoBad
297 posts
Jul 10, 2010
6:33 PM
Holy crap! Please come to the Hill country Joe Lee!
joeleebush
35 posts
Jul 10, 2010
6:49 PM
To Kudzu man:
Its all documented in that book "Blues With a Feeling" by Gaines, Dirk, and Glover. They gave me about three pages of print in that book and I furnished them a lot of the posters they used in the production. REALLY nice guys, all of them.
Most people don't understand that the south back then was legally segregated but kinda socially integrated. White people could go into black clubs but blacks couldn't go into white clubs. It was a very good setup for a kid bluesman...and Atlanta was a big "break out" city for records. If it hit here on WAOK or WBGE, it was off and running on the charts. The players would come here and stay for a month or so at a time on those extended road trips.
I of course at 15 had no idea that Walter would become the legend he is now. He was to me, just a dynamite harp player and I wanted to know as much as he did..he had not problem talking it up. The first time I met him, I just walked up to him on break and started talking..it went from there. No race stuff, no bullshit, just 2 blowers talking...well, of course he was way-y-y-y far ahead of me, but I was dead on his trail. He thought it was great.
You gotta remember, I never saw him again after 1955 when they all say he turned into a sonovabitch, etc etc etc. Glad I missed all that.
It's a long complex socio-political story. I lived it and I'd bet money Charlie Musselwhite experienced the same thing over there in Mississippi or Tennesee. As for up in the so called "enlightened North", well that's probably another tale entirely.
You said the magic word though when you said "FREE"...yea I can do that, with the greatest of pleasure too,
Stay in touch, etc etc etc.
Regards,
Me
joeleebush
36 posts
Jul 10, 2010
7:37 PM
One more comment or two from me and then I'll shutup and stop hogging this topic.
MANY THANKS to those of you who posted here about enjoying my playing. I know this site has a big group of top action blowers and those compliments from some of you guys rank very high with me.
I appreciates it...I do, after all these years, still love blowing on that damn fool harmonica...lol, lol.
(I enjoy hearing someone who knows what its all about wailing too..brings a smile to my face every time)
Regards,
Me
(yes, to the guys who sent emails..that is a pic of me at 2-3 years old, on the website, with some kind of harp jammed in my mouth. Seems like CENTURIES!)
DirtyDeck
88 posts
Jul 11, 2010
7:32 AM
Can I be the first to say that Mr Joe Lee looks strikingly like a white Muddy Waters on his homepage? ;)

Quality playing there, sir. Particularly enjoyed 'Blues With a Feeling' :)
barbequebob
1016 posts
Jul 11, 2010
12:16 PM
Hey Joe Lee Bush, as a pro, I don't impress easily, but you got your s**t together and you can play!!!! You don't need to take a back sseat to anybody. Pros rare give out compliments easily but in your case, for me, piece of cake.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte


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