vonpowell
1 post
Jun 01, 2010
4:58 AM
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Hi, everyone.
I'm new on the forum. I signed up simply so that I could post questions that would hopefully improve my playing, so here goes:
I've been playing for around 7-8 months. Enjoy it immensely! I do mostly LB with some TB thrown in, but can't really reliably bend using TB. So far, my LB bends work very well and I'm able to hit them directly without having to slide into them. I have recorded myself and my tone seems to be OK except for one thing: when I bend on a 3 hole draw, the tone quality sounds very different than a straight draw. My 2-hole bend sounds OK, but the 3-hole bend and double bend don't sound right (the 1/2 bend sounds better). It's worse on my A harp and a little better on a C harp. I've tried everything I know to correct the sound, but it still doesn't sound right.
Any advice? Is it just my embouchure? I play Special 20s.
Thanks.
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tookatooka
1419 posts
Jun 01, 2010
6:13 AM
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Do you mean that the bent notes don't have the same ringing timbre as the unbent notes, and sound slightly muted and muffled in comparison?
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vonpowell
2 posts
Jun 01, 2010
6:32 AM
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I would say they don't have the same ringing timbre. I typically get a pretty strong sound (compared to the unbent notes). The sound is more of a "vocalization" sound (I just made that word up!) - it just sounds more like someones voice making the sound than the typical ringing from a harp). It's not a muted sound.
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Buddha
1910 posts
Jun 01, 2010
7:24 AM
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post a clip of your music and we can help you.
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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vonpowell
3 posts
Jun 01, 2010
7:50 AM
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I'll see what I can get together. I don't really notice the sound so much when using the bends as lead-ins, but really notice it on sustains. I'll have something by tomorrow.
Thanks!
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barbequebob
877 posts
Jun 01, 2010
9:42 AM
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You may be hitting the bends with too much breath force and that alone can totally mess up the articulation and intonation of the bends as well as its accuracy.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
374 posts
Jun 01, 2010
11:43 AM
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i use vowel sounds for articulation. for instance, 3 draw is ah, the 1st 1/2 step bend is ee, the 2nd 1/2 step is o, and the last is oo.
in short ah,ee, o,oo. if you have a chromatic tuner it would read G#, G, F#, F. on an A harp. and B Bb A G# on a C harp.
3 is interesting because it has the most draw bends. the objective is separating them with good sustained intonation.
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 11:48 AM
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GermanHarpist
1505 posts
Jun 01, 2010
11:53 AM
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Is that the case with all harps? Sometimes when the harp is badly set up, (especially) the three hole bend is very hard to play and thus sounds bad... however, as buddha says, posting some soundfiles would make the diagnosis easier.
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YT - Music isn't created, it evolves.
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MakaInOz
12 posts
Jun 01, 2010
7:57 PM
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You might be overbending a bit - that can make the note sound 'dodgy'. A cheap chromatic guitar tuner will show you if you're too bent
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vonpowell
5 posts
Jun 02, 2010
5:42 AM
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OK. I just recorded a simple scale in the bottom 4 holes of my Bb harp. You will hear the tone that I'm getting on the 3 hole full bend, especially when coming down. My 3 hole 1/2 bend has a better (not great, but better) quality, as does my 2 hole bend.
Hopefully, my HTML code will work correctly. If not, I'll try again.
TestScale
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captainbliss
114 posts
Jun 02, 2010
6:07 AM
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@vonpowell:
1. The mp3 works fine.
2. If you were one of my students, I'd be very proud of your tone and control!
3. Thoughts:
(i) Dennis Gruenling (great player, if you haven't, check his music out) once gave me some great advice about bends and tone:
practise making a "sine wave" bend; start the draw unbent, lower the pitch VERY slowly until you get all the way down, raise the pitch VERY slowly until your note's unbent.
You're trying to describe a sine wave pitch curve.
Work to keep the volume and pitch steady, again and again and again.
This develops control and, ultimately, the ability to hit bang on / slide in to any bent note.
(ii) (Previous posters in the thread) Buddha, barbequebob are very fine players, wise counsellors on matters harmonica and will have very useful things to say, three of which may well be:
"drop your jaw down,"
"be aware of where you're resonating notes in your mouth and throat"
and
"play as softly as possible."
Listening to those three pieces of advice in the past has done wonders for my tone on notes bent or otherwise...
(iii) I suspect there will always be some tonal difference between a unbent and a bent note, although I'm interested to hear the thoughts of others on this?
(iv) What do you hear when you compare the 3 hole bend on the descending and ascending scale you posted?
(v) Practise, practise, practise...
xxx
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vonpowell
6 posts
Jun 02, 2010
6:51 AM
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@captainbliss:
Thanks for the encouragement. I try to work on my control at least a few times a week, but don't have as much time to practice as I would like (no one on this forum probably gets to play as much as they would like!).
I'll take your advice and see how I can improve. I look forward to hearing from any others.
As far as what I hear (#iv, above), my 3 hole bend going up is better and in better tune than going down, plus it has a better "harp sound" quality, if you know what I mean. It's almost like the 3 hole bend coming down us too smooth or pure, not with the harmonica timbre of the other notes. This is what I want to eliminate but not sure how.
Thanks!
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Buddha
1920 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:17 AM
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that's just the way it is...
You're not playing the note in pitch and the timbre of the note will sound better with a better harp, the one you are using is very leaky and not well set up.
Practice playing along with a keyboard.
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Tin Lizzie
73 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:31 AM
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dennis would tell you to use a tuner for the pitch. like this one
http://www.amazon.com/Sabine-MT9000-MetroTune-Chromatic-Metronome/dp/B0002FP04E/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1275489005&sr=8-27
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Tin Lizzie
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vonpowell
7 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:33 AM
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@Buddha,
When you say "leaky" do you mean that I need to adjust the gaps in the harp? Opened more or closed more (I'm guessing closed more)? I'm playing a Hohner Special 20, about all I can afford (or what the wife will let me spend!). Any tips you have would be helpful.
Thanks.
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vonpowell
8 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:39 AM
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@Tin Lizzie,
Good advice. I am currently using the tuner in GarageBand that works pretty well. It's just difficult to play a tune following along with the tuner ;)! It does help, though, so I'll keep practicing.
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Buddha
1921 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:46 AM
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using a tuner to work on pitch is VERY BAD advice.
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Tin Lizzie
74 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:49 AM
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That is YOUR opinion. At least state it that way instead of sounding like you are god or something. Geez, Buddha. Be a little less full of yourself.
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Tin Lizzie
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Buddha
1922 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:52 AM
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I AM a god of the harmonica. Moooowahhahahahahaha
I often intentionally leave my teaching with a bit of vagueness so you guys can figure it out for yourselves.
Tell us Tinlizzie.... why do you think using a tuner is great for teaching pitch?
And why do you think I think it's terrible advice?
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 7:55 AM
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Tin Lizzie
75 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:55 AM
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Well you make me laugh anyway. I hope that was your intent. Maybe you are more like an emperor....
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Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 7:57 AM
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captainbliss
115 posts
Jun 02, 2010
8:16 AM
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@vonpowell:
/Thanks for the encouragement./
That's what we're here for.
@Buddha:
/tuner [...] for teaching pitch? And why do you think I think it's terrible advice?/
OK... I'll play.
Ear-training > eye-training?
/Moooowahhahahahahaha/
You're a bovine deity, then?
xxx
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 8:17 AM
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Nastyolddog
820 posts
Jun 02, 2010
8:21 AM
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: when I bend on a 3 hole draw, the tone quality sounds very different than a straight 3 draw
Bro why would you bend a note if it didn't sound different that is the purpose of bending notes:)
the 3-hole bend and double bend don't sound right
you may very well be hitting the Holey Grail
BLUE-3rd and not reconiseing it:)
Bro when i found the BLUE-3rd,
Shame Shame on me sorry Bro's Ok:)
it sounded like shit i thought this sounds Flat
or something is my Harp Broke, when i sort tuition
i found out i was playing the note perfectly still took some getting used to:)
It's worse on my A harp and a little better on a C harp.
get used to the tone, listen to players hitting the BLUE-3rd
I've tried everything I know to correct the sound, but it still doesn't sound right.
untill then the problem will as it is now go from Harp to Harp some sounding better some sounding worse:)
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Buddha
1923 posts
Jun 02, 2010
8:23 AM
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"OK... I'll play.
Ear-training > eye-training?"
BINGO!!!!
use a keyboard. Learn to hear the pitch first. Learn to sing the pitch. Learn to play the pitch.
using your eyes is useless for pitch is useless. When you use a tuner so much is focused on getting the needle in the right play that you're not actually hearing the correct note.
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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vonpowell
9 posts
Jun 02, 2010
8:56 AM
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@Nastyolddog,
When I say "tone quality" I'm not referring to the pitch. I'm referring to the timbre of the note. For example, an E note and a D note on a guitar have the same timbre. But if I play an E note on a guitar I don't expect the D to sound like a banjo. That difference is what I'm talking about.
As for the blue third, I can hit this relatively easily and hear it just fine, plus the tone quality has a similar timbre to an unbent three hole draw.
@Buddha:
I see what you're saying. If I can't hear it in relation to other instruments, then no amount of practicing (with a tuner) will help me to get the right pitch. I don't have perfect pitch ability.
@everyone:
I guess I need to see what I can do about the leaky harp. My harp is not that worn, I don't think. Can the reed shape/position contribute to this leak problem? If so, what is the best way to fix it (apart from buying a new harp!)?
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 9:16 AM
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Tin Lizzie
76 posts
Jun 02, 2010
9:52 AM
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I'll give you some general advice. Listen to what people say and then do what works for YOU.
If someone is giving you advice, listen to how they sound and decide if they sound like you want to sound.
I take lessons from Dennis Gruenling but I don't do everything he says. I try to give what he says a fair chance, but if it doesn't work for me, I don't do it. I don't think every approach works for everybody.
BTW, I use a tuner and a keyboard to work on my bends. I find both to be useful to me.
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Tin Lizzie
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Buddha
1924 posts
Jun 02, 2010
9:58 AM
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TinLizze-
Let me give some advice to you. If a world class player suggests you do something then it would be in your best interest to do so.
Dennis is one of the best in the world and if I were a less than advanced student of the harmonica, I would do exactly what he says.
Even today with the level of ability I possess if I wanted to get deep into blues harmonica, I would call Dennis and do exactly what he says.
Training your eyes to work with a blindman's instrument is fruitless.
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Tin Lizzie
77 posts
Jun 02, 2010
10:02 AM
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Well, Dennis says to use a tuner. So you are arguing with yourself.
Dennis is a world class player, I agree. But I am not Dennis. I learn differently than he does. And although I agree he is a world class player, I don't have the same taste in music he does.
I've been taking lesssons from him for three years. For the first two and a half I let him lead me by the nose as best I could follow. Now I argue some.
PS there are so very many types and kinds of blues. My favorite player these days is Jim Liban. I found him through Dennis. He loves him, too.
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Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 10:13 AM
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captainbliss
118 posts
Jun 02, 2010
10:50 AM
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@vonpowell:
/But if I play an E note on a guitar I don't expect the D to sound like a banjo./
To extend the metaphor...
If you pick the E when you're relaxed and the D when your hand's all tensed up 'cos you're focusing a lot of energy on controlling of the pitch...
xxx
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barbequebob
885 posts
Jun 02, 2010
1:36 PM
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Even tho a harmonica can be a problem, far more often than not (closer to 95% of the time), it has far more to do with playing technique than anything else because even if you have one that is setup well, and then you still have the same problems happening, you can totally rule the instrument out and it's time to rethink your playing technique.
One of the very first and biggest rookie mistakes newbies often make is using too much breath force for everything, and when many of them are teaching themselves, especially the note bending, when they get frustrated trying to get it, they often times will play even harder to force it to happen and that is the WRONG thing to do and this is something you want to stop ASAP.
Here are how many bends are available in each hole:
1 draw - 1 bend
1 blow - 0 bends
2 draw - 2 bends
2 blow - 0 bends
3 draw - 3 bends
3 blow - 0 bends
4 draw - 1 bend
4 blow - 0 bends
5 draw - 0 bends (actually a 1/4 step, very slight)
5 blow - 0 bends
6 draw - 1 bend
6 blow - 0 bends
7 draw - 0 bends
7 blow - 1 bend
8 draw - 0 bends
8 blow - 1 bend
9 draw - 0 bends
9 blow - 1 bend
10 draw - 0 bends
10 blow - 2 bends
The harder the breath force, the more difficult you make things for yourself trying to control them or do anything on the instrument. The right amount of breath force is just loud enough that you don't wake up a baby sleeping in the next room.
Being physically relaxed all over your body, air passages, facial muscles, throat muscles is absolutely necessary or you're gonna make a lot of unnecessary hard work for yourself.
If you play those bends too hard, you hit the floor of the bend and the bend is usually gonna be way out of tune and sound God awful, and that's putting it very politely.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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GermanHarpist
1508 posts
Jun 02, 2010
2:53 PM
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bbqbob, I think this way of seeing the harp is not that good.... You write 5 draw has actually 1/4 bend. I know it is obvious to you but it should be taught to every newbie that not only the 5 draw, but every bend has that extra 1/4 (and some more) bend - and thus one extra bend for every hole.
All the tables and your list above don't take that into account, ... and thus people don't think in that manner. However, there are so many ways in which this extra bending space (and the bend all the way down) can be put to use....
I would very much want to elaborate, however I have to go to bed. Anybody else feels like it...
Ok, just to give two examples: Adam sometimes substitutes the 4 draw bend all the way down with the 4 blow.
Then, a thing I see often... when people think that the 4 bend goes down half a step instead of close to a whole step they bend it down way too far... and I'd say most harp players including some pros bend the 4 hole down too far (which is ok in blues if you know what you're doing - but if you don't it just sounds off).
This really is a subject for a new thread... good night :)
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YT - Music isn't created, it evolves.
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 2:55 PM
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GermanHarpist
1509 posts
Jun 02, 2010
3:06 PM
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Btw, I should have added, the second point with the 4 hole draw... I do that mistake all the time and it really is very hard to control. I think learning to control the last 1/4 of each bend and learning to control that end the last 'regular' bend is really hard... harder than all the intermediate bends.
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YT - Music isn't created, it evolves.
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joeleebush
14 posts
Jun 02, 2010
4:10 PM
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To BarbecueBob,
I can get four distinct notes on each hole 1 and 2 draw and five notes on the 3 hole draw on any "out of the box" diatonic in key of A or Bflat or C.
If I can do it,(since age 10), anyone else can do it too. It isn't rocket science. Just depends on the player and how insane he is to sit there and keep messing with the thing. (which demonstrates that I am a stone cold screwball)
Now, the third hole bent draw on the F harp is another story entirely..the third hole bent draw on that F can get away from a player quick if he isn't careful. It's always been a tricky one for me, primarily because I don't play all that much Sonny Boy 2 stuff and don't use it much. One bent note is all I can dig out of that 3draw on the F harp and I don't dare get cute with it or it will flatten out.
Gruenling gets that 3rd hole bent draw as clean as it comes and so does Estrin. And of course Rick does it with that damn thing stuffed in his mouth doing the "no hands" business. (I think its an F in there, I never asked him)
I am unqualified to comment on overblows.
Your chart is flawed
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nacoran
1982 posts
Jun 02, 2010
4:27 PM
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I liked using Bend-O-Meter until my free trial period was over. I don't see a tuner as a substitute for ear training but as a tool to help with ear training.
Coo coo ca choo.
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Nate
Facebook
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barbequebob
889 posts
Jun 03, 2010
11:53 AM
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Joeleebush, rmember, those bends I've listed are true half steps, and that would match a piano, and those other bends would be essentially between the cracks, and remember, the person asking the question is essentially a newbie, and newbies haven't mastered the bend technique well nor have they mastered the kind of breath control necessary to get those semitones (Which you call notes) and that's gonna take, realistcally speaking, at least 1-2 years minimum to get the basic hang of getting just thosse TRUE half steps, let alone the 1/4 or 1/8th steps that you're referring to. Based on actually being able to get those inbetween the cracks AKA the semitones, the chart is flawed, but for the vast majority of players, it is not at all and what you're talking about is correct for a HIGHLY SKILLED player, but we're not talking about someone at that level at this time and so there's were your argument has some SERIOUS flaws.
Hole 1 draw on a key of C harp is a D, when noy bent, then the 1 bend, is a Db, that's 1/2 step down, then comes the blow note, C, which is another 1/2 step down from that.
The other notes you get are semitones, basically the stuff inbetween the cracks, and only an advanced player is gonna get that with ease and NOT a newbie.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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joeleebush
15 posts
Jun 03, 2010
2:27 PM
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Okay Mr. Bob, you apparently want some more, so here it is.
YOU are the big-time teacher who, in my opinion, should have told everyone reading the chart that there are semi-tones, or whatever you call them in there right out of the gate. As far as I am concerned they are notes or sounds that work and sound good
Furthermore, that condescending term "newbie" is lame. Being a new player doesn't mean the guy should have to swallow that derisive term, along with the "its gonna take sooooooo long to do this".
2 years to do that? Hah...I was doing them at 11 years old after hearing them maybe 3-4 times on old 78's on a hand cranked victrola. 2 years indeed!
Me? Flaws??? The only flaws I have is I am too fat, too old, too ugly, too lazy, very broke, and I am STUPID enough to challenge one of you sacred cows in here.
The chart as printed is weak.
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toddlgreene
1407 posts
Jun 03, 2010
2:50 PM
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But seriously, tell someone what they CAN do, not what they CAN'T do. It's a lot more encouraging.
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Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
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Buddha
1925 posts
Jun 03, 2010
3:00 PM
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Todd, tell me I can call him to the carpet.
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***
"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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toddlgreene
1408 posts
Jun 03, 2010
3:02 PM
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Permission granted. Bite suit pressed, medium starched and ready, sir.
I'll go make some popcorn.
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Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 3:04 PM
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MP
395 posts
Jun 03, 2010
5:19 PM
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i'll buy the beer and beef jerky.
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Greg Heumann
503 posts
Jun 03, 2010
6:02 PM
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fun fun fun. Now, I agree with EVERYTHING so I must be impartial.
However I will point out that harmonica is not the only instrument in the world whose notes can be bent smoothly from one pitch to another. But you don't see the "available note" charts for a saxophone or a string bass showing that. They show the proper fingering, position, technique ONLY for every semi-tone.
So Give Bob a break. Given that we can smoothly bend from one pitch to another it goes without saying there are an INFINITE number of pitches between half steps.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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vonpowell
11 posts
Jun 04, 2010
5:17 AM
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Ask a simple question . . . get a ?
It seems that everyone has a different opinion on style, theory, practice, bends, etc., which isn't surprising. If everyone sounded like Little Walter we would be looking for a Buddy Greene. Different techniques and different learning styles work differently for different people (whew!). The bottom line is to make music that you enjoy. I'll keep practicing. I'll keep asking questions. And I'll try some and use what works to get me to my goals.
Here is a quote that might be applicable:
"In theory there is no difference between practice and theory, In practice there is." Manfred Eigen
Apply it as you see fit.
Thanks, everyone.
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