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Special 20 conversation off-shoot
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HarpNinja
150 posts
Feb 08, 2010
9:28 AM
So the reeds used on Sp 20's, GM's and MB's are the same? However, none have interchangeable reed plates (you can't use a Sp 20's plates with a MB comb, etc.)

Any comments to the quality of the overall reed plates between the three harp types? Seems a well done MB is a pretty sweet playing harp.

I've found that regardless of how they are setup, all three play very differently. I really like the rounded shape of the GM and how they tend to be thicker overall. However, MB's play a little easier. The comb of the Sp20 doesn't do much for me, but I like the covers more than a MB.

Now that they are the same price point within a dollar or two, it seems like a MB isn't much harp for a tweaker when you have to do a lot more work than on a GM or SP20 because MB's have the unsealed combs and nails.

I think MB reed plates with Sp20 covers and a rounded type GM comb would be a pretty sweet harp, lol.


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Mike Fugazzi
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barbequebob
442 posts
Feb 08, 2010
9:36 AM
In some ways, that's what was the deal when Hohner came up with the MS series, tho the other thing about it was ALLEGEDLY that because of stricter European health laws, nothing could be made small enough to fit inside a baby's mouth.

MB's use two different combs, one for key of C and lower and another for D and higher, and so there's some effect there with the length of the comb chambers there alone.

Recessing of the reed plates into the comb also gives a bit different feel (for some noticeable, some not appreciable).

BTW, on the Sp20 covers, when you see tthe top cover also says Marine Band. The reason for it was that when they came out with these in 1973/74, it was actually going to replace the MB, but too many players said to them NO WAY. Like the GM's when introduced that year, their reed plates were held together with nails (actually escutcheon pins) and were one royal pain in the butt to work on (even worse than the MB) and sometimes the plates weren't nailed flush flat on the comb and they leaked like hell when that happened.

To work on them, I managed to get a special tool made for me by an old chromatic customizer who was also a retired tool and die maker. God, without this tool at the time, GM/Sp20's back in the 70's to nearly the late 80's were a pain in the butt to deal with.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
nacoran
1056 posts
Feb 08, 2010
1:40 PM
I've never played a Meisterklasse, but I've played a Seydel Blues Favorite. They look a lot a like, with a different cover shape than the standard sandwich. The Blues Favorite is a very comfortable harp (aluminum composite comb).

Cover Shapes:

Golden Melody (extruding reed plates, rounded shape)

Marine Band (extruding reed plates, ridges on top and bottom)

Special 20's (recessed reed plates, ridges on top and bottom)

Meisterklasse (can't tell about the reed plates, the
Blues Favorite has extruding reed plates but they are really smooth, no ridges on the top or bottom)

I've never played a Meisterklasse so I have no idea how they sound. It would be great to be able to try each cover type with the same reeds. Just based on comfort I'd rank them: Meisterklasse (based on my Blues Favorite), Golden Melody, Special 20, Sandwich (I haven't played a MB but I've played Blues Harps). I wish they made a GM without the plates sticking out.
GermanHarpist
1098 posts
Feb 08, 2010
4:30 PM
Are there any differences in the reed plate thickness'? It seems to me, and I think it was mentioned a couple of times, that the Sp20 has a softer sound. That of course could be due to the coverplates. But as far as I know thinner reed plates also create a softer sound.

Anybody here's got some info on that?

Btw. the GM and MB feel to me as if they had the same 'raspyness' in sound.

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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
nacoran
1059 posts
Feb 08, 2010
4:40 PM
GH- According to the Hohner site the GM, SP20 and MB all have .9 mm brass reed plates. The Cross Harp and the Meisterklasse have 1.05 mm. They say the 225 Deuce and a Quarter is 2.25 mm. It looks like most of the Chromatics are 1.05 mm, although there is one that's 1.2 mm.

http://www.hohnerusa.com/index.php?6

Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2010 4:42 PM
nacoran
1060 posts
Feb 08, 2010
4:46 PM
It looks like the some bass harps have 2.0 mm reed plates.
GermanHarpist
1099 posts
Feb 08, 2010
4:58 PM
Thanks for the link, nacoran.

Huh, ok... So is it that the pertruding reeds of the GM and MB have an effect on sound? Somehow seems unlikely. Probably it has more to do with the coverplates than anthing else.

Did anybody have the same impression in sound? How would you rate the big three GM, MB and Sp20 in 'raspiness' and tone?

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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
htownfess
15 posts
Feb 08, 2010
5:47 PM
Apart from the tuning, those three handmade models are *identical* at the reedplate itself. Tuning means that the GM is likely rougher on any chordal sound--one kind of roughness/raspiness due to difference beats. Think of blues chromatic LW-style ("4-hole" TB). del Junco exploits that roughness in his blues music.

But closed coverplates' effect on higher freqs smooths out the sound of the GM and SP20, especially the GM, in a different way than tuning does. Brightness of the open MB covers accentuates any roughness, dramatizes the compressed sound of full cupping. Kinda makes a direct comparison of the three impossible, though you can compare MB with SP20 since the tuning's the same. A GM that's tuned to MB/SP20 specs is remarkably dark and mellow.

Right now, to me the optimal Hohner handmade is to fit SP20 covers to a MB Deluxe after smoothing the edges of the MBD reedplates. You have to bend the mouth side of the SP20 covers a bit to engage the groove in the reedplate better, but the way the back side then projects past the edge of the harp and out into the hands slightly mimics the way the Filisko brass customs and B-Radical extend out into the hands for easier cupping. Not the most elegant-looking hybrid ever, same as going in the opposite direction with an MB-covered SP20, but sonically better for me and the MBD comb is comfortable.
nacoran
1061 posts
Feb 08, 2010
5:52 PM
The protruding plates might put the reeds closer to your lips. I don't have any MB's. I've stayed away from them. My first harps where a wooden Blessing Tremolo and a Blues Harp. They tore up my lips, especially the Blues Harp. The GM's are tuned differently than the MB's and SP20's, so that may effect how raspy they are. My only GM is F#. It's hard to compare it with, say, my SP20 in A, because they are so far away on the scale.

I think a lot of it may be how open their backs are. The Blues Harps sound louder and have wider open backs than my Lee Oskars, which are pretty closed. I think the Lee Oskar has a little warmer sound, but I think the Blues Harp seems to respond more hand effects, maybe because the the sound is pushing out more through the back. GM's are pretty closed up in back. I've never tried anything with side vents.

The only harps I've opened up the backs on are some cheap BluesBands. In general I think it improves projection, but you trade off for some warmth.

If I had more money I'd love to pick one key and get one of each in that key to really compare.
HarpNinja
164 posts
Feb 16, 2010
6:33 AM
Is it just me, or do Sp 20's sound softer/quieter than a MB even if the Sp 20 has open covers? Maybe breathier is a way to describe it?

I have a couple of older Sp 20's that I've been refurbishing and both of the Bb seem so mellow compared to a MB. I have yet to retune to 443 and cut the burs out of the comb.

I like the idea above of using a MB with Sp 20 covers...I don't have extra covers to try this, but seems like a cool thing to do.

I think MB's are going to be my new harps of choice. I have the tools to convert to screws and seal the comb. What sweet harps. I love GM's too, but a MB with open covers feels easier to play.
----------
Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
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MrVerylongusername
900 posts
Feb 16, 2010
6:47 AM
I think the percieved difference is due to the side vents, think how close that right hand vent is to your ear - especially if you jam the harp into your cheek to close the top holes.
barbequebob
475 posts
Feb 16, 2010
9:22 AM
When the MB was first introduced in 1896, the covers were more wide open in back than they are now and they stil had the side vents and the main reasons for the vents is, much like the wider opening in back, to make the harp player louder and brighter. The vents allow you to hear more of the harp's real sound that the audience hears and it spreads the sound over a wider angle and too many people think of it as leaking, which is NOT true at all.

The original Old Standby model (pre-1990, before it was turned into a cheapo Chinese made Sp20 knockoff) essential was the same as the MB, but with a much more enclosed back and no side vents and on higher pitched harps, it tended to mellow the sound out a bit. Before Charlie McCoy switched to Sp20's, these were the harps he mainly used.

Harps with side vents work better on harps tuned to either a comprimise tuning or just intonation, but with ET, I'd rather have a more enclosed cover plate so that the sounds of the chord harshness coming from ET tuning gets mellowed out.

The side vents also makes the harpo more sensitive to how you hold it. also remember, the harps play at their loudest when the cover plates are removed.

As far as reed plate thickness effecting the sound, the thicker plate, much like tightening the reed slot tolerances will make a harp play louder, brighter and more aggressively, BUT, much like tightening the slot tolerances, it makes harps more likely to get blown out in the hands of a very poorly skilled player who insists on playing with far too much breath force and the thick plate adds to the stress being placed on the reeds.

Most diatonic harps have a reed plate thickness of 0.90mm. The MS Cross Harp and MS Meisterklasse uses 1.05mm, the Hering Golden blues, Hering Blues, and Black Blues uses 1.07mm, The Hering 1923 Vintage Harp, Hering Delta Blues, and Hohner Blues Bender uses 1.20mm. The Seydel 1847 uses 1.01mm.

Most chromatics use either 1.05mm or 1.20mm, and on the Hohner Super 64X, the first two octaves are double thick, at 2.10mm and the last two are 1.05mm. Even on a chromatic, any harp using a thicker plate, much like tighter slot tolerances, you need to adjust your playing technique in terms of breath force ASAP or risk blowing them out quickly, but unfortunately, too many players are far too hard headed to listen.

I think to make Sp20 covers work on a MB, ther's gonna be a ton of modification needing to be done.

If one doesn't like the side vent openings, just place a piece of masking tape over the vents to alleviate it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte

Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2010 9:23 AM
Bluzdude46
480 posts
Feb 16, 2010
9:44 AM
I agree with Mike, I've always found the SP20's to sound a little warmer not quite as on the edge Bluesy as MB's, I don't know a better way to describe it but they do sound different. And the difference gets a little more noticeable if the MB's have customizing reed work done.
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
HarpNinja
166 posts
Feb 16, 2010
9:59 AM
I think to mod a MB for Sp 20 plates you just have to line up the new covers, mark the two holes, drill through the whole harp with a 7/64 drill bit and install SP 20 screws. That isn't any harder than switching a MB to screws.

Interesting about the side vents. I might try that out with the SP 20. It just sounds so mellow. But like I said, I need to tune first.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
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barbequebob
477 posts
Feb 16, 2010
11:37 AM
The Hohner Bluesbender is a Chinese made harp using a thick reed plate with covers that are closer to the Sp20 but with side vents.

If you're gonna customized the MB's using the Sp20's, I'd personally rather see the cover screws placed closer to the mouthpiece area, which is where most customizers do with the MB's (as does Suzuki on the Manji), which I've found to have a better overall seal than just placing the cover screws dead center.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bluzdude46
482 posts
Feb 16, 2010
11:54 AM
Ok is BBQ Bob placing a Special Order??? LMAO just teasin' Bob
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
barbequebob
478 posts
Feb 16, 2010
12:06 PM
No problem!!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
nacoran
1146 posts
Feb 16, 2010
5:34 PM
BBQ- Since you brought up plate thicknesses, you don't happen to know how the Deuce-and-a-Quarter sound?
barbequebob
481 posts
Feb 16, 2010
5:46 PM
Can`t say I have, but if that thickness of 2.25mm is correct, that would be both extremely loud and bright, but in the hands of a poorly skilled player using too much breath force, that would almost be guaranteed to get blown out in less than 48 hours.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Gaukur
6 posts
Feb 17, 2010
4:10 AM
http://www.harponline.de/shop/pages/frame.php?id=130100&title=Hohner&origin=navi&
3rd harp down

Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2010 4:12 AM


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