From what I've read, a CR is the same thing as a CM(they're the same type of element). At one point Shure decided to change the name from Controlled Reluctance Transducer to Controlled Magnetic Transducer. This doesn't mean there isn't any difference in one model to the next, but they're same type of element and work in the same way. There are variations in tone between the different CR/CM's, but this has a lot to do with how they were constructed at different times. A lot of people like the old black label CR's, and part of what gives them a slightly different tone than the white label CR's that came after, or the so called CM's that came after that, is the black CR's were hand wound. The black CR's also have a small metal disc that was glued to it, which also (most likely) afffects the tone.
So to recap, CR and CM are just different names for the same basic thing. But the specific models of these elements will have different sound characteristic, and many are built from different materials as well. People differentiate between the CR and CM because it gives an idea of what model it is and when it was made, which gives you an idea of what it might sound like.
I'm certianly no expert on this subject, this is just what I remember from reading about mics. If I've given any incorrect information, or left something out, please feel free to correct me.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 2:03 AM
Jon, Dave Kotts site www.greenbulletmics.com< has all the information you'll ever be be likely to need on CR/CM elements.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 1:59 AM
Kingley thanks for that link, that is very interesting. I have an old green bullet and it seems from the pictures there it was assembled in Mexico 1985+ I have always wanted to know; how did you find out about Dave Kotts? The internet is fantastic..
Dave Kott has long been known as a "guru" of Green Bullet mics. He used to post on Harp L I think. There are quite a lot of these guys out there from mic guys to harp technicians, amp builders/techs, etc. It's just a question of trawling the web and forum posts to find them.
I have one of those Mexican CM elements too and it's a real tone monster.
Here is a picture that shows the sure-fire way to tell the difference.
As Ryan said It is thought that the method of affixing the pin to the diapphragm (crimped "hat" in CR, glue on CM) is primarily responsible for the difference in tone. There have been other changes in construction techniques along the way, but nothing else that occurred when they changed the name. And yes, the greenbulletmics site is fabulous - more information in one place than anything else. ---------- /Greg
I couldent see if there was a 'hat' through the grill so I unscrewed the 2 tiny screws and took it off (god thats fiddly!) and yes, there is a little hat just like your picture phewww..now to get those wee screws back in..
I have some medium and low impedance sure cm's that I got from a ham flea market. I haven't tried any of them out yet. I'm still looking for Hi Z sure elements and plan to do some searching when the ham groups in my area start their cycle of flea markets again in the spring.
I'm just wondering what kind of performance I would get from these elements with a small audio matching transformer (like this one http://www.jt30.com/jt30page/eacstore.html) mounted in the shell. I have a couple of shells (JT30 and Turner BX) waiting for suitable elements. The JT30 currently has a Low Z sure element in it and when I tested it, it was week, no doubt due to the impedance mismatch with the amp.
I have, or have had a number of CM's. In my experience, the CM99B86 element is hotter and nastier than the CM99A86. However, I often like the A better than the B, a little cleaner, allows me to up the volume on the amp, more room to adjust the tone. They both sound terrific. I have one CR, a black label CR99H86, considered the holy grail of Shure elements. It is as hot or hotter than my B element but smoother sound, I understand why people like it. I also have several crystals, the Shure is similar in sound to the CR, the Brush crystal in my Turner is a little less hot, both sound great. I like them all, play them all, but I wouldn't say the differences are huge. I will say that the differences between these elements and some others, especially newer elements, are obvious. When I've been handed the house mic at jams, I usually don't like my sound.
I know nothing about different elements rb but house jams are never satisfactory are they, and for many reasons. Dont get me wrong, I like our local thursday jam but when you are handed the mic?? well who knows sometimes I love it and other times..at least you are socialising with the guys and girls yes?
@Scoltx: Completely valid to build an impedance matching transformer into the mic. Some of the low-Z CM's are quite good and work really well this way. I think you'll be less happy with the medium-Z ones. There is probably a "right" transformer for them like what Nasty pointed to at Mouser - but I've never done the research to see what it is. You can get a "right" transformer for a low-Z element to high-Z output simply by buying an external IMT (the kind with an XLR jack and a 1/4" plug) and taking the transformer out of it.
@rbeetsme - I have the same experience/opinion about 99A86 vs 99B86 vs 99H, ON AVERAGE. However I will say that there is enough variation among elements with the same number that on a case by case basis, your mileage may vary. ---------- /Greg
and part of what gives them a slightly different tone than the white label CR's is the black CR's were hand wound. Yup thats what iv'e read and is the major factor in there tone differences, i have 5 and like 2 over the rest for there tone but these two have massive caps on them,
The black CR's also have a small metal disc that was glued to it,which also (most likely) affects the tone ? not to sure about that,
there output Ohms capacity was allso variable due to there hand winding from 1100ohms some 1300ohms or above,
Ok the best way to tell a CR from CM is look at the Bobbin thats where + - the contact poles come out, it's the transformer, the CR are Brown made from a heat proof material, the CM is white and made from Plastic,
allso if you don't know the Ohms output of a Shure CM element or Ebay seller dosn't know Look at the end of the Bobbin again,
Hi-Z Brown CR Hi-z White CM Lo-z Purple CM
there is a rare 300 omhs CR element out there bur vary rare so thats my Lot:)
@Nasty - I think it's easier to just look for that little hat. In my experience, which is with hundreds of elements, both white and black label CR's ALWAYS have the metal hat; no CM's have it. ALL CM's have a drop of glue (although what they used for glue varied over the years.) It's very easy to see.
I've built 4 mics with the lo to hi impedance transformers. They have a very big output and distort very easily, too easily for my tastes and I prefer the standard hi z elements.
If you want to hear them in action listen to Giles King who plays with "Hokie Joint".
He uses and endorses RHarley mics who builds lo impedance mics with transformers. ----------
7Limit,. Thanks ,.I build Hi Z's an Low Z's,..but I do luv the tone of the Low Z's,..LOLO The Mic Giles King use's is a Bluzblaster 99C86 trans super boost mod called Memphis Blood ,.he also blows through one of my Silver Bullets ,..
I've just built a replica of Giles Kings Memphis Blood ,Memphis Blood II for Marcel in Germany heres what he says: Hey Ron, how are you? Last week I told ya to write again... so here I am. =) At the weekend I had a lot of time to check the mic with my amp (Marble MAX) and the pocketPOD and all I can say is: your mic is great!!! None of my other mics is so responsive as yours! I like the dynamics and the organic sound very much... if you cup it real tight on the one hand you get plenty of bass and a very muted sound and if you let a little bit air through on the other hand you get still a really nice sound which is cutting through but still has good bottom end! I think the best compliment I can make is that I will let all my other mics at home... =) I hope that this will never happen but if I ever need another mic you will be the first one I contact! I wish you and your business all the best, Marcel
Also I've built a Low Z Hotrodded trans superboost mod Mic Louisiana Smoke (another Bluesblaster ) for Oxharp an heres what he had to say: I think the mic (L- Smoke) is a kick ass mic and pound for pound Dollar for Dollar I dont think you can get a better one out there. I have not had a chance to catch up with my mates to show off the mic but will soon I hope.
I think that the mic compares really well with the 2 black label CR.s that I have.
It is better than one with a lower out put.
I compared it with my best CR and although the output of my CR was better than yours I could get almost the same dirt/ grit by turning up my amp abit.
As the CRs cost 3 times as much as yours I am very pleased with the results.
I will try and get a review on tyou tube for you as soon as I get my camera fixed in th shop but it may be terminal.
Speak soon Regards Russ
My point is this on CR & CM's be they Hi Z or Low Z ,.they were made for ham radio operators not for harp players,.if you want to pay 250+ bucks for a CR element by all means go ahead,.is there a difference?? It's all in the ear of the beholder,. You could spend 450 bucks for a black label mic an wonder why the guy playin with the CM in the juke joint sounds better that your Blackie ??
HERES the UK's,. MR. GILES KING,. BLOWIN THROUGH A SIMPLY UNIQUE KUSTOM BUILT MIC,.CALLED "MEMPHIS BLOOD" ,... A Shure low Z to high Z element Hotrodded with My Super Boost Mod,.. ENJOY,..
I have a 520DX that I bought before I knew any better. I don't care for its tone, so it's been hanging on the wall for six months or so. I'm gigging with a hi-z stick mic that is better than the 520 DX, but still leaves me somewhat wanting when we do our blues numbers.
Any recommendations with what to do with it: rebuild / have it rebuilt; just sell it, or perhaps there's another idea that you guys have?
Besides the obvious little hat, and the phenolic material used for the bobbins on the early CR's.
Shure has used different grounding methods at the magnets on the CR's/CM's over the years.
I used to think the hat had an affect on the tone, until I found some unusual early nos mexican cm's that sound as good as most any black, or white cr that I've owned.
The grounding method on these CM's it different than the US CM's, but similar to the black CR's, but there is no hat, and the glue is transparent.
It's got me baffled!
Last Edited by on May 04, 2010 3:48 PM
PaulM,. that 520DX is a dynamic element but with a lil' work can be made into the blues mic ya want ,..read my feedback comments on ebay as to what I do with the 3 hole an 9 hole Shure dynamic elements that I install in my Silver Bullets,..
@Harpaholic ,..those Mexican CM's are badazz for sure ,..a lotta players shy away from them cuz their made in Mexico (my best guess) Their missing out on one of Shures best sounding elements,.an as you say : sound as good as most any black, or white cr that I've owned. ---------- Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
The price the black CRs are going for these days is very high well over $200 put them in a shell & they are selling for $400 + I have found a lot of CRs are very muddy sounding which I don't like & alot of them are noting special . I have a Mexican CM that blows most CRS out of the water very strong output & not muddy at all. I did recently buy a Astatic Biscuit mic with a black CR from Jan 1950 & that sounds very similar to the Mexican CM which I love Hot as Hell & not muddy.buy a Mexican CM you could spend lots on a half duff black CR
@HArp .. yep those are the ones ,.but even the white label Mexico ones are just as good,..the ones your talkin about are the light brown tape mexico ones ,..I believe ya can't go wrong with either one <>
@ Strawoodclaw,. Amen !! The CR's are Muddy sounding ,.but ya can make the CM's just as Muddy soundin if thats what ya lookin for ,. an for a lot less than the 200 - 400+ price tag that comes with the CR's <>
@ HARPAHOLIC,.I was lookin through some of my old build pictures an ran across this 707 I built using the 99T556 Mexican element ,.same as the one as your talking about the 99A86 with the lite brown tape,..yes it's a killer element!!! If any ones lookin for a new great tone element an has a chance to buy one of these ,.Don't pass it up ,.GREAT TONE at a 1/4 the price of a CR. An harp man ,.I knew I saw them somewhere when ya sent me the pictures of the 99A86's ,..I had only that one !!LOLOL They are hard to come by ,.
They have the same label, except 99A86, and there 14 hole in the front like a US CM. They don't have the cardboard or that other material shown over the bobbin. they use a transparent glue on the center pin, and there grounded at the magnets differently.
They sound better than most of the CR's I've owned, and I've owned a lot.
I'll post a pic if I can figure out how.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 8:34 AM
I don't really like muddy sounding CRs, I recently bought a early CR it is dated 1-50 99A86 does this make it the first month of 1950 or the 50th week of 1951? This one sounds strong & not muddy , it sounds much like my Mexican 99A86 which I love. I think people get hung up on this stuff any HIZ mic is good some amps don't need a really strong mic others do. The stronget elements by far are the Shure crystals 99-331 & R7 if you cab find a good one - Its all good!
I have one black CR that is an early 49, it doesn't have that edge the others, including white labels seem to always have. It's been to Chuck Gurney's and although the output was greatly improved, it sounds a little "muddy" through a variety of amps. I have a lot of CR's and CM's and there are no two that sound exactly alike. JD
There is also another factor to think about is that the actual true impedance matching of both the mic and amp. Now the general rule is that anything over 600 ohms is considered high impedance, but there's a wide variety as to how high. Dynamics and even the GB's with CM/CR cartridges are considered in reality medium impedance and certain amps, like the black face Fender amps from the 60's are closer to a truer match in impedance, wheras the tweed Fenders from the 50's were ultra high impedance, being 1mg, and with crystals and ceramics, being ultra hi-Z, mate up with these amps better and too many people tend to look at things with a one size fits all attitude and so not every mic and amp will work together well as a combination. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I think my best CM's and CR's sound as good through my HiZ grid leak bias amps (Fenders, Masco's, Supros) as they do through my super reverbs. The crystals, however without a buffer, certainly don't perform well in my blackface amps. But if I run a crystal through say my LW harp delay and in to a super or Deluxe Reverb, full and fat. Because the first thing the mic sees is a hiZ resistance. Am I just foolin' myself? JD
i traded an astatic T-3 to fritz hasenpustch-did i spell his name right?- for a NOS 127 and a NOS mexican CM. he told me the CM would be edgy. i love that mexican CM!!!
I've said it once ,.I'll say it forever,..don't pass up a Mexican made Shure element,.save that 250 bucks by not buyin a CR for something else<> ---------- Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 12:38 AM
