Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > My Fender Champ and gigging
My Fender Champ and gigging
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Tom Lauten
15 posts
Nov 27, 2018
1:51 AM
I have been working with my Fender Champ 600 to turn it into a good harmonica amp. I have fitted a full Alnicomagnets tone/hum/voicing mod kit, fitted an 8”, 15 watt Weber alnico harp speaker and have a good range of pre amp tubes to play with. I have also made up an output attenuator so I can get full use of the overdriving amp at a liveable volume for practice. That’s great and I love it.

When I gig however the guitarists are going “full-titty” and my Champ is instantly lost of course. As an alternative to putting a pa mic on the amp do you think if I disconnected the amps output to its speaker and ran it through a di box for the pa feed and took the spare monitor feed from the di box for my in ear monitor I could compete with my fellow players and still get the benefit of the sound I’m beginning to love from my Champ?

I hope you can help.
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Tom "Bad Paw" Lauten
Loch Ness, Scotland
www.nimbacreations.com
SuperBee
5661 posts
Nov 27, 2018
2:12 AM
dont disconnect the speaker. just fit a line out by taking a line level signal from the speaker side of the output transformer and run that to the DI.
Christian Wasmer
12 posts
Nov 27, 2018
2:55 AM
don't EVER disconnect the speaker off a tube amp. Needs a load or you may fry tubes and/or output tranny.

As SuperBee mentions, a simple arrangement of two resistors can derive a line voltage from the speaker.
Tom Lauten
16 posts
Nov 27, 2018
3:45 AM
I’m a bit lost as to how I would take a line level signal out. Isn’t the Di box supposed to transform the signal to line level?

How would I work out what resistors in what layout I would need to get the line level feed. I assume some sort of bypass switch can be fitted?

I’m utterly intrigued and totally capable of doing the mods physically but the electronics and connections I am totally lost on. Can you point me in the right direction?
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Tom "Bad Paw" Lauten
Loch Ness, Scotland
www.nimbacreations.com
hvyj
3650 posts
Nov 27, 2018
4:34 AM
A good start would be to put the 10” speaker back in. It moves more air. A single 8” speaker is unrealislc for live playing with a band.
dougharps
1862 posts
Nov 27, 2018
6:00 AM
Some active DIs with pads are rated to accept an amp output with the 1/4" output going to the speaker, leaving the speaker load on the amp. Some even have speaker emulation. It is an option to use an active DI as a line out. I find it simpler to mic a small amp.

That being said, if you can't hear yourself, neither can the rest of the band. I have successfully used a small amp as a monitor tilted and aimed at myself and the band. I suspect that your band may be too loud. Either they need to turn down to reasonable stage volume or you need a bigger amp for this band.
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Doug S.
hvyj
3651 posts
Nov 27, 2018
6:18 AM
IMHO it’s silly to decide to use a small amp with a tiny speaker and complain that the band is too loud. Personally, I find that a larger amp with a speaker configuration that gives you a deeper tone that comes in under the guitar freqs so the harp is not fighting the guitars for sonic space makes it easier to be heard. It’s not purely a volume thing. Also you need bigger or more speaker cone area to move enough air. FWIW

Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 27, 2018 6:24 AM
Tom Lauten
17 posts
Nov 27, 2018
6:55 AM
I wasn’t expecting the Champ to hold its own, obviously it is too small. I wasn’t complaining, I was stating that it is what it is. I can’t afford a more powerful set up nor do I play enough to warrant it. I replaced the Champs original 6” speaker with the Weber 8” ...I don’t think a 10” would fit in the cabinet. I have done what I can with what I have.

I was only asking if anyone had any practical advice for getting the amps output directly into the pa without using a mic on the amp. I would rather use the amp output as opposed to an amp simulator pedal etc.
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Tom "Bad Paw" Lauten
Loch Ness, Scotland
www.nimbacreations.com
hvyj
3652 posts
Nov 27, 2018
7:04 AM
My bad. Somehow I had the mistaken idea that the amp originally came with a 10.

FWIW, I used to use an amp that had an XLR line out. Pretty cool. But I have no ideas how to install one.

Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 27, 2018 7:08 AM
Junior Little
3 posts
Nov 27, 2018
7:35 AM
Hey Tom,
As far as installing a line out goes, take a look at the Lone Wolf 6L6SE build (https://www.lonewolfblues.com/proj6l6se.html); they have one installed on it. Another great location for good tube amp build info is Rob Robinette's wonderful website, but specifically his line out mod found here: https://robrobinette.com/5e3_Modifications.htm#Line_Out_Jack

Best of luck!
JL

Last Edited by Junior Little on Nov 27, 2018 7:36 AM
Tom Lauten
18 posts
Nov 27, 2018
9:28 AM
I think I’ve found a line out mod that will work.

I do have an attenuator I use to use with the amp. I put the attenuator in line between the amp output and the speaker.

Could I leave this in place to load the amp and to keep the speaker at low volume while using the line out mod breakout for a full feed to the PA? If so I assume I would want the line out mod before the attenuator? I’m just guessing here...
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Tom "Bad Paw" Lauten
Loch Ness, Scotland
www.nimbacreations.com
rogonzab
1076 posts
Nov 27, 2018
9:36 AM
You are way way overthinking this.

I have a Champ 600 stock and is a good amp. It is a small amp that sound like a small amp (pure midrange aggresivnes).

You want a big amps sound from a small amp. There is your problem.

My advice:

Put a sm57 in front of the speaker or install a line out (the LW work great) and use your amp as a stage monitor and tell the sound guy that you want ZERO of your amp in your monitor.

If there is no sound guy, then try to find a good place on the stage where you dont pick up much of the monitor sound.

I have done it (whit another small amp) and works great.
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.

Last Edited by rogonzab on Nov 27, 2018 9:37 AM
Tom Lauten
19 posts
Nov 27, 2018
9:57 AM
I don’t fully understand...

” install a line out (the LW work great) and use your amp as a stage monitor and tell the sound guy that you want ZERO of your amp in your monitor.”...

Line out from the amp but also use the amp as a monitor but with no amp in it? How would that work?
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Tom "Bad Paw" Lauten
Loch Ness, Scotland
www.nimbacreations.com
SuperBee
5662 posts
Nov 27, 2018
11:28 AM
‘Line out’ taps a little signal out which you are sending to the PA. Your speaker still works. If you can find a way to hear your amp on stage it’s all sweet.
If you do a web search on something like ‘installing line out in tube amp’ I bet you will find plenty of info.
Getting the signal to pa is pretty straightforward. Hearing your amp onstage is potentially more complicated but the key will be getting it closer to your ears. If you’re able to run the line to PA via DI and use an in ear monitor, that might work but I’ve never done it and not familiar with the gear. I think I’ve run a HiZmic straight to PA via DI. Line level is what you need for that.
The line out is a voltage divider coming off the output of your output transformer. Your speaker still works normally. Try getting your amp up off the floor, pointing in a direction which will intersect your ears.
Post above is correct though; the band probably can’t hear you either.
rogonzab
1077 posts
Nov 27, 2018
11:30 AM
The line out is a signal that it is independent from the one going to the speaker in your amp. You can use the line output to fed the PA (or a big amp) AND still hear your amp like always (trough the speaker)

So, you can use your amp as always and on stage you only need to hear your amp. The volume issue is solved by the PA.

If I remember right, in one of these video John talk about line outs.




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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
dougharps
1863 posts
Nov 27, 2018
2:04 PM
The OP asks about using a DI between the tube amp output and the speaker. I have heard about using active DIs with speaker emulation this way for years. There was a Red Box, and now Behringer makes an active DI with emulation.

Yet, everyone keeps suggesting installing a line out or getting someone to install a line out, altering the amp.

What if you had several small amps you might use? Wouldn't having one active DI to use with any of them make more sense that getting a line out installed in each amp?

I haven't used my active DI in this way yet (mine doesn't have emulation), but I have been thinking about using one with a small amp. This has been done, as noted in a Behringer GI100 review on MF about a Champ 600. The manual talks about it, too, up to 3000 watts.


Behringer Ultra-G GI100 DI at Musician's Friend

Behringer Ultra-G GI100 DI

What reason is there to NOT use an active DI with speaker emulation between the tube amp output and the speaker? It is inexpensive and could be used as a DI with emulation off in other ways, too.

If the pad on XLR output protects the PA and the pass through 1/4" goes to the speaker load it should not be a problem for PA or tube amp. It is simpler than wiring in a line out on every smaller amp.

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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Nov 27, 2018 2:12 PM
SuperBee
5663 posts
Nov 28, 2018
4:39 AM
I think you might be reading more into the OP than I see, Doug, but yes that would work too. Perhaps it would be a bargain as an alternative to multiple line out circuits. It’s fairly clear the OP is dealing with only one, small non-vintage amp in which he has already implemented several modifications.
A line out requires 2 resistors and a jack, perhaps a little wire and solder. It’s about the most simple and cheap mod one can make and does not need to be permanent.
nowmon
194 posts
Nov 28, 2018
7:38 AM
I used a 1970 Champ, up on a chair, a sm-58 plugged into a direct box into PA, And into Champ.Also a monitor in front of me and sm-57 in front of Amp ,into PA...I used that for seven years, and it was great. 73 till 79....Eventually i used a 65W. music man 2x10, which was as loud as a F.Twin...and worked on its own....
sonvolt13
162 posts
Nov 28, 2018
8:37 AM
Going another route, you could sell your champ, use the money to buy a sansamp blonde pedal, and dial in a champ sound that can go straight into the PA and be as loud as you want.
Littoral
1642 posts
Nov 28, 2018
9:27 AM
I heard that some people put a mic in front of their amp and run it through the PA.
Just an idea.
Tom Lauten
20 posts
Nov 28, 2018
11:08 AM
Thanks for all the helpful comments.

I have found a line out design, likeSuperbee said, a few parts only. I’ll make up a 4ohm attenuator and that’ll be that. I’ll be able to play as loud as it goes, as quiet as sociability will allow and I can pop it through a PA if I want. Done.

BTW...Alnicomagnets Champ 600 mod kit is really, REALLY good. The instructions are super clear and beautifully illustrated with step by step photos.
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Tom "Bad Paw" Lauten
Loch Ness, Scotland
www.nimbacreations.com
SuperBee
5664 posts
Nov 28, 2018
11:23 AM
I put alnicomagnet mod through my epiphone valve jr. Very well put together kit which taught me a fair amount.


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