groyster1
3229 posts
Aug 15, 2018
8:29 AM
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in tony glovers blues harp book he goes over 1st,2nd,3rd and 4th position.......at some point in time 4th became 5th.......main root note being 2 blow.....why is that?
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The Iceman
3645 posts
Aug 15, 2018
9:39 AM
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In my experience I have not seen 4th become 5th in any "how to" book. Haven't read the Glover book, though.
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The Iceman
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Littoral
1628 posts
Aug 15, 2018
10:23 AM
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Dang instrument is upside down wacky anyway so it goes with the territory.
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 16, 2018 5:35 AM
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ridge
742 posts
Aug 15, 2018
10:32 AM
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Are you saying the book switches definitions of what 4th position is part way through? Or are you saying that your understanding of what 4th position "was" is now being called 5th position?
5th position is 5th because of it's relation to the key of the harmonica.
For a C harmonica, if we go through the circle of fifths, it would go
1st Position: C (Root 1/4/7 blow)
2nd Position: G (Root 2 draw, 3/6/9 blow)
3rd Position: D (Root 1/4/8 draw)
4th Position: A (Root 3 whole-step draw bend / 6 draw)
5th Position: E (Root 2/5/8 blow)
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Ridge's YouTube
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Rhartt1234
248 posts
Aug 15, 2018
11:22 AM
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The Glover book has MANY glaring errors. The naming of positions is a big one.
Like Ridge says, the only way to name positions is to follow the circle of fifths.
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tomaxe
136 posts
Aug 15, 2018
12:19 PM
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The Tony Glover thing is priceless for the enthusiasm it projects, and the entertainment value of its pseudo-hipster writing style, and is a great book (I believe it was one of the first of its kind) to light a passionate fire for a beginner. I'm so glad it exists. It's weak on much of the technical stuff, however. Glover was either misinformed or just figuring out a lot of this stuff himself. Dig the enthusiasm, take the rest with a grain of salt.
A much better all around instructional is the Steve Baker harp Handbook. Has a lot on positions, and I believe has every diatonic harmonica key diagramed.
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johnleewfan
17 posts
Aug 15, 2018
12:58 PM
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The Glover book was written in 1965 and was a HUGELY valuable pioneering contribution to blues harp knowledge. A lot of information has become available in the past fifty-plus years.
Pat Missin has an excellent survey of the places where the book is incorrect. These instances are neither "many" nor "glaring".
http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q14.html
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SuperBee
5554 posts
Aug 15, 2018
3:37 PM
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Funny that Pat mis-identifies the key of LW’s song Can’t Hold Out Much Longer in an article where he is cataloguing errors in Glover’s book. It’s definitely a C harp.
But the OP correctly identifies that Tony Glover used the term 4th position when referring to what is now known, sensibly enough, as 5th.
Was it ever really known as 4th position or was that something Tony Glover made up for the book?
If it was once commonly called 4th position, what was 4th position called?
I heard Charlie Musselwhite tell David Barrett about his discovery of position on harps through observation. I believe he said he observed Big Walter play a C harp in A and found it remarkable enough to raise the topic with Little Walter, who proceeded to show him you could even play a C harp in E. But he didn’t have names for that as in ‘n position’, as I recall. I may be recalling imperfectly.
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groyster1
3230 posts
Aug 15, 2018
4:29 PM
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all I know is that tonic note on 4th position in glovers book was 2 blow......I tried it......and it really worked......but now it has become 5th position......you can find used books of glover on ebay.....first published 53 years ago.....dont shoot me Im only the messenger
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SweetBlood
73 posts
Aug 16, 2018
11:35 AM
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I have heard people call it 4th position as well. Until recently I thought that there was no rhyme or reason behind the numbering of the positions. Then I discovered by accident that they actually follow the circle of fifths. It could be that before that convention was decided upon, people were just calling the positions by what was most commonly used. I'd like to know more about when the numbering we have now was settled upon.
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groyster1
3233 posts
Aug 16, 2018
2:41 PM
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yes me too
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johnleewfan
18 posts
Aug 16, 2018
4:32 PM
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Once upon a time, people spoke of "straight harp", "cross harp" and "double cross harp" (which is today's "third position").
Harps were played in other "positions", as we call them now, at least as far back as the 1920s, but the systematization of nomenclature is pretty recent.
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hvyj
3617 posts
Aug 17, 2018
6:34 AM
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The present convention of naming positions in accordance with the circle of fifths originated with the book, THE HARMONICA ACCORDING TO CHARLIE MUSSELWHITE which was published in the 1980s but is now out of print.
Before that, there was no commonality in designating positions above third. Jerry Portnoy's instructional materials, Tommy Morgan's, Tony Glover’s, Blackie Schackner's and others each used different designations. BTW, one of the most valuable things I got from Glover's book was the importance of not neglecting to develop strength of tone on the BLOW notes, which can be easy for a blues player to overlook. That stuck with me and helped me a lot.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 18, 2018 3:35 PM
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barbequebob
3532 posts
Aug 17, 2018
8:24 AM
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Hvyj CORRECTLY points that out in his post. Now the way the positions are being called by the circle of 5ths is THE CORRECT WAY, all based on music theory, which most harp players NEED to learn NOW.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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DanP
391 posts
Aug 20, 2018
6:44 PM
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barbequebob, I agree. Some harmonica players think knowing intervals is enough theory they need to know and that is limiting. Every harmonica player should know the circle of fifths by memory forward and backwards. They should know the tones for every key. For example, they should know that the key of G has one sharp (F#) the key of D has two sharps (F# and C#) and so on. I've been trying to learn to play the chromatic harmonica lately and knowing the circle of fifths is essential to be able to play the chromatic in every key otherwise the player will be lost and not know where and when to push the slide in. There is a lot I still need to commit to memory.
Last Edited by DanP on Aug 20, 2018 6:48 PM
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barbequebob
3533 posts
Aug 21, 2018
8:25 AM
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@DanP -- I agree with you 100% and if you're gonna learn chromatic, ESPECIALLY when you play in positions OTHER than 3rd position, this is absolutely necessary and any of the other positions require a fair amount of usage of the slide button. Not knowing these things as well as not getting their time straightened out are two of the biggest reasons why there are a lot musicians who play other instruments have little or no respect for harmonica players and they only have themselves to blame for that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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