Header Graphic
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > MB Deluxe vs Crossover
MB Deluxe vs Crossover
Login  |  Register
Page: 1

jbone
2586 posts
Jun 18, 2018
9:43 PM
I just got a Deluxe, seems to be a really well made harp. Now I'm wondering about Crossover.
Have any of you tried out both of these harps? If so what's your opinion of each?
Thanks for any insight here.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
SuperBee
5439 posts
Jun 19, 2018
4:27 AM
Hi jbone, the differences are significant in that the Crossover is tuned differently and has a bamboo comb. Less significant are the posidrive cover plate bolts and stamping of the cover plates.

Personally I prefer the tuning of the deluxe, which is like the standard marine band and special 20. The Crossover is closer to ET and from my experience is often somewhat brighter especially in the high end.
The bamboo is nice but so is the sealed and chamfered deluxe comb.
The quality seems the same to me.
I have 4 Crossovers which I believe I purchased in 2011. They’ve been very good.
I have a few deluxes. One is over 10 years old and I had to replace the comb after about 5-6 years but I believe those early editions were not as well-sealed as the current model.
The other 2 were worked on by Richard Sleigh but only reed work, the combs are stock. Nice but not a fair comparison.
I do work for a lady who plays out regularly and used to blow out a lot of reeds. She played Deluxes almost exclusively and I’ve done at least 50 repairs for her over the last 4 years, so I’m very familiar with them. After a while, mainly based on dealing with her repairs I decided I like the deluxe every bit as much as the Crossover and given they are a fair bit cheaper they would be my choice. The bamboo comb is a nice thing but I don’t know that it’s worth the extra $ especially when I’m not wild about the tuning. For my style I think the chords are a bit nicer on the mb deluxe
florida-trader
1321 posts
Jun 19, 2018
5:06 AM
I agree with Superbee 100%.
----------
Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Blue Moon Harmonicas
groyster1
3193 posts
Jun 19, 2018
6:06 AM
I have both and the only difference to me is the combs.....I really dont think crossovers are worth the extra expense but I thought that the deluxe is not available in USA anymore
jbone
2587 posts
Jun 19, 2018
6:15 AM
Valuable insights guys, thank you!
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
GamblersHand
683 posts
Jun 19, 2018
6:49 AM
The extra brightness and responsiveness suits my level of ability, so I tend to use Crossovers for the G through C keys, and Deluxes for higher keys.

Last Edited by GamblersHand on Jun 19, 2018 6:50 AM
Andrew
1787 posts
Jun 19, 2018
7:01 AM
I have a Crossover in F, which I like.
I used to have a Deluxe, prolly in C, but I seem to have ditched it, as I never liked it that much; but it was a first version, and I gather from Superbee that maybe they weren't as good as they could have been.

Last Edited by Andrew on Jun 19, 2018 7:05 AM
florida-trader
1322 posts
Jun 19, 2018
7:29 AM
One thing I did notice about the very first Deluxe I bought many years ago was that it was very responsive, but the comb was very thin. This happened shortly after I discovered the online harmonica community about 10 years ago. I had been playing Golden Melodys exclusively for about 35 years. I subscribed to harp-l and read about various models that were new to me so I started trying different harps. I got a Deluxe in C and liked how responsive it was but was surprised by how small the chamber holes were. I really had to change my embouchure. I didn’t know any better and thought perhaps that’s the way it was supposed to be. I was just a dummy. I learned later on, after I started making combs, that the thickness of the Marine Band combs was very inconsistent because of the way they are made. Hohner starts with a block of wood, cuts channels for the reed slots and then cuts the individual combs off one at a time like slicing a loaf of bread. If you take apart an older Marine Band 1896 you can clearly see the saw marks on the wood, which Hohner did not bother to flat sand. The Deluxe was introduced in 2005 (hence the model # 2005) and was clearly a nod to the improvements that the early customizers were making to the stock 1896. The nails were replaced with screws. The comb was flat sanded and sealed and the sharp edges of the tines were chamfered. It was a big improvement, but I think early on they had not addressed the issue with inconsistent thicknesses of the comb yet. I think that in subsequent years, they tweaked the Deluxe a little to make it better. In my opinion, the Crossover was introduced in 2011 in response to the Customizer’s tendency to use custom combs. The Bamboo comb on the Crossover was chosen after several materials were tested by guys like Steve Baker and Joe Filisko. I’ve talked with Steve about this and he told me that it was pretty much a unanimous decision by those involved in the test. Both the Deluxe and the Crossover are good harps.
----------
Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Blue Moon Harmonicas
jbone
2588 posts
Jun 19, 2018
9:54 AM
So Tom, that brings another question up. Has Hohner addressed the comb thickness you mention? I would think there would be some kind of spec Hohner would use on their blueprint. Seems to me that the stock screws kind of demand that a comb be only so thick. Is there an advantage to a deeper slot ie thicker comb? I would think past a point you would be at hazard of overworking a reed if you could easily put too much air over it. A channel with too much volume per se. Before I sort of grew up and began addressing my bad habit of overdrawing and killing reeds a standard size channel held easily enough air volume to kill a reed, sometimes very quickly. These days I doubt it would be a problem since my deal is much more about focus than force and I have a better perspective about what a reed will produce and where the limit is.

----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
Joe_L
2846 posts
Jun 19, 2018
1:35 PM
I dig both of them. I managed to pick up an almost complete set of new Marine Band Deluxes for less than $35 each. They are great. I have a Marine Band Crossover. I like that one a lot, too. Keep in mind, I mostly play Hohner MS harps, so these are a massive upgrade to me. I have not had a problem without one of those instruments.
SuperBee
5440 posts
Jun 19, 2018
2:29 PM
Jbone, the combs seem pretty consistent to me. For instance, Sleigh was happy to produce customised versions of both types with stock combs. That says something; either about the combs or the man, but I personally think the harps he sent me are among the best I’ve encountered.

My original deluxe was purchased from a brick and mortar store here at the end of the world in 2007. My first impression was that it was almost too easy to play, after years of playing ms blues harps. In 2012 I began taking lessons with a guy who taught using A harp and this became my steady regular practice harp. After 12 months of this I realised the comb had seen better days.
Initially I replaced it with a bamboo comb from a (broken) Crossover and I was very impressed at the improvement. When I repaired the donor harp I had to return the comb so I installed an aftermarket comb which was just as good.
Based on all the Deluxes I’ve seen since 2014 (my client is hard on harps. She seems to have around 25 she uses in rotation, when she has 5 or 6 broken she sends them for repair) the combs are better than that original of mine. I’ve never seen a problem comb in any of hers and they seem quite consistent. I do think they are a few thou thicker than the original.
My take on the contribution of comb thickness to performance is that a harp with a relatively thick comb may have a fuller tone but take a little more air and be a little slower to respond compared to a harp with a thinner comb.
the_happy_honker
302 posts
Jun 19, 2018
2:41 PM
After 1896s, my first Marine Bands were Crossovers. Finally, a Marine Band that didn't have to be pried open, one you could open and work on as many times as needed.

But as others have said, the Deluxes are slowly making inroads in my collection, mostly because I'm doing more chords and chordal effects (tongue blocking) these days and I'm appreciating the smoother chords of the Deluxe.
groyster1
3194 posts
Jun 19, 2018
3:32 PM
@honker......where do you get your mb deluxes?thought they were not available in USA
florida-trader
1323 posts
Jun 19, 2018
5:21 PM
Jbone – the stock M1.6 screws are 10mm long, so they could handle a comb that is 7mm or about .275” thick. Anything more than that and the threads probably won’t catch. When you talk about a blueprint, you perhaps don’t realize how the wood combs are made. The combs start as a long wood block which has channels cut for the reed slots. The individual combs are then cut of the end of the block like slicing a loaf of bread. In theory, they could be very precise, but the evidence indicates that they are not. I have dozens upon dozens of stock Marine Band combs – 1896, Deluxe and Crossover and the thickness of the comb varies. It is very inconsistent, but I will say that the new combs are much better than the old unsealed pear wood comb. They are flatter. They are smoother. The thickness is more consistent. So it looks like Hohner is paying more attention to the details. I give them credit for that, but it doesn’t compare to the accuracy of CNC Milling. But milling costs more too, so there is a trade-off.
----------
Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Blue Moon Harmonicas
ME.HarpDoc
324 posts
Jun 19, 2018
7:52 PM
@groyster1
Rockin Ron’s has MB Deluxe in all the standard keys
jbone
2589 posts
Jun 19, 2018
8:52 PM
A simple stop on a saw can give consistent cuts. I worked in a crate shop and we had cuts on 12 foot 2x4's within 1/8". Seems like Hohner would pay attention to that but I guess not. All the stuff you hear about the German obsession with technical stuff is apparently an exception with Hohner.

At any rate I'm happy to say we have 3 gigs coming up in the next 3 weeks so the Deluxe I just got in key of A will get a workout. Possibly I'll be getting some more depending on how that one does.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
SuperBee
5441 posts
Jun 19, 2018
9:03 PM
Jbone the tolerance is much tighter than 1/8”. A few thou at most (less than 1/100”) would be my estimation but I haven’t been measuring it because it’s essentially insignificant.
jbone
2590 posts
Jun 20, 2018
6:22 AM
Ok, well if it's negligible I don't plan to worry with it. 1/8" over 12 feet is negligible as well when you're cutting to build large crates or framing trusses. I used to eyeball a few thousandths of an inch when I was doing small machine repair/rebuild and it was crucial then but obviously it's not been an issue for me with playing harp. Flatness is more an issue.
I never noticed a difference in comb thickness myself. Big Rivers were over all slightly larger than MB or SP20 but I quit playing them some years ago for other reasons than size.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
Littoral
1613 posts
Jun 21, 2018
10:20 AM
Hadn't used a Deluxe in years and recently got a couple Spiers customs. He uses the Deluxe as his MB to build from. They are great, of course. Inspired me to pick a Deluxe when I needed one. This time a back-up Bb. Arrived goofy quick from RR. Again, of course. GREAT HARP. Sometimes we get extra good ones out of the box. This one is exceptional. Always loved the Crossover but it wouldn't be my pick -for now.

Last Edited by Littoral on Jun 21, 2018 10:21 AM
Kingley
4094 posts
Jun 21, 2018
11:11 AM
Both very nice harmonicas. Personally I prefer the Deluxe over the Crossover. It just seems less bright to me, I like the comb more than the bamboo and the stock tuning is a little nicer to my ear. Although I tune all my harps to 7 Limit JI, so that isn't really an issue.
groyster1
3195 posts
Jun 21, 2018
1:20 PM
@kingley......interesting that you tune all harps 7limitJI........all my vintage marine bands are tuned that way........very rich sound
AppalachiaBlues
184 posts
Jun 21, 2018
1:36 PM
During the period of 2013-2015, I bought 6 MB Deluxes and 4 Crossovers, in a range of keys. I used them regularly until last year. They are both nice harps, and a huge improvement on the nailed standard Marine Band.

The Deluxe and Crossover are very similar. Besides the cover graphics, I would sum up the differences between the two as:

1. Bamboo comb - a little more comfortable, a bit more air tight, and slightly lighter in weight. The differences are small, but noticeable. Also, I've had some very slight swelling on the Deluxe from time-to-time, whereas the bamboo has never swelled. On the downside, the bamboo comb seems harder to keep clean. It tends to collect greenish deposits which take a bit more work to scrub off.

2. Tuning - as others mentioned, the Deluxe is a compromise set-up which is close to 19L JI, whereas the Crossover is a compromise which is almost ET (similar to a Manji). Personally, I prefer the Crossover tuning, as the Deluxe can sound a bit flat - especially when playing with a band.

3. Set-up -- I get the impression the Crossover gets a bit more care before leaving the factory. It seems like the reeds are well gapped and well aligned, so the Crossovers seem more responsive out of the box. Also they seem slightly louder than the Deluxe.

4. Cover screws - the shiny pozidrive screws on the Crossover look nice. The duller flathead screws on the Deluxe look cheap, and the the metal is soft, so they damage if you're not careful. Hohner should spend the tiny difference to put the nicer screws on both models.

Overall, I prefer the Crossovers. They just seem to play better out of the box. Also, in my small sample size, they are more durable. All 4 of my Crossovers still play very nicely today. Out of my 6 Deluxes, 4 of them have reeds which have gone out of tune or become sticky in the slot, and one reed is broken. The 2 Deluxes still working are the E and F, which I've used less often. So... it might be just a coincidence, but based on my experience the Crossover seems to be more durable and stays better in tune.

I would buy more Crossovers - they are nice instruments. However, I think they are over-priced (as is most of the current Hohner catalogue). I guess Hohner can get away with it, due to the strength of their brand.

Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Jun 21, 2018 1:42 PM
jbone
2599 posts
Jun 22, 2018
3:52 AM
This Deluxe will be getting a workout in coming weekends as we have several dates coming up.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
SuperBee
5447 posts
Jun 22, 2018
5:19 AM
Funny ain’t it, how people see things differently.
I prefer the cover plate screws from the deluxe. I’ve seen too many Crossovers with the posidrive heads rounded out, where I’ve never seen a deluxe with damaged cover plate bolts. The message is don’t over-torque the bolts.
Reedplates in both models are exactly the same. In fact if you buy replacement reedplates for either model, Hohner don’t distinguish. I’m unclear about which tuning they supply. Ive never purchased replacement reedplates. I replace individual reeds.
AppalachiaBlues
185 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:55 AM
You're right Superbee :-)

Actually, my problem is not having the right sized flathead screwdriver. Whereas I have a full set of Pozidrives. So I'm using the right tool on the Crossover and the wrong tool on the Deluxe. But I still think the cover screws on the Crossover are prettier!
groyster1
3198 posts
Jun 22, 2018
8:38 AM
@appalachia
agree that crossovers are overpriced....I prefer the deluxe anyway
SuperBee
5450 posts
Jun 22, 2018
5:25 PM
While I think of it, on the topic of stripping out the heads of cover plate bolts;
When reassembling both these types it’s easy to end up with a ‘marginal’ situation with the alignment of the cover plate holes.
It’s worth taking a little more time to go back and get it right. If the holes in the reedplates aren’t lined up well with each other and the comb the cover bolts will be tight. This is imho a situation which contributes to the damaged heads and threads I see in these types.
Of course using the wrong screwdriver also is less than ideal
groyster1
3203 posts
Jun 22, 2018
5:59 PM
Ive only changed reedplates on sp 20s......it all worked out great......I know not to overtorque
dougharps
1779 posts
Jun 25, 2018
8:05 AM
OOTB I think the Crossover is slightly more responsive and brighter, but I like the mellower sound of the MBD. Both are great harps. However, these higher end Hohners are pretty pricey for harps that are not very durable if you should push too much air.

For controlled subtle playing, I like the MBD or Crossover, or even the SP20. If I think I might overdo it in certain situations and play too hard, I grab a Manji instead, because they can better survive abuse. Unless you have money to burn, learn breath control if you are going to play the MBD or Crossover!
----------

Doug S.
BeePee
95 posts
Jun 25, 2018
7:23 PM
Both are great-sounding harps, but I've found that the Deluxe comb is not perfectly sealed. After a period of time playing it swells out at the front - not as extreme as the MB 1896, but still not good. For that reason I'd choose the Crossover of the two of them.

Another thing I've noticed, which Joe Spiers mentions also, is how the fronts of the tines varies a lot. They used to be quite precise and flat with very slight rounding, but now have quite extreme chamfering that's also a bit rough and uneven.

I agree, Hohner should pay a bit more attention to comb finishing for these otherwise excellent top-of-the-range diatonics.
jbone
2602 posts
Jun 26, 2018
8:07 AM
I do like the Deluxe, and will be working with it in coming weeks at a couple of live shows, which will tell me if I want to get a few more.
I think it's a sort of compromise I'm looking at. Manji has it's place in my kit as do other flavors, but I have to admit I like the tone of MB's, especially well made ones.

All of your words are well appreciated. It's great to have a fine forum to get real input from experienced and knowledgeable folks like you all.

Old dog, new tricks.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
Andrew
1789 posts
Jun 26, 2018
4:59 PM
This evening I was asked to play a solo in D in the song The Glendale Train. If that is to become a regular event, I'd like to buy a Crossover in G, but it's insanely expensive. I'm going to have to find a reliable source for these harps. I can get a Deluxe in G much cheaper, though...

Last Edited by Andrew on Jun 26, 2018 5:00 PM
slaphappy
362 posts
Jun 26, 2018
8:52 PM
I like the Deluxes better. Still mad at hohner for killing them in the US.
----------
4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
jbone
2603 posts
Jun 26, 2018
10:40 PM
Rockin' Ron Slaphappy.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
jbone
2614 posts
Jul 03, 2018
9:03 PM
I just took a deal, 3 Deluxes, I picked keys, and a harp belt or 3-harp case thrown in. $180. And below is my current excellent adventure with Ron:

Last evening I got on Rockin' Ron's to order some stuff and it would not let me log in, or change my password, so I emailed Ron and asked for help. I figured he'd mail back and we'd get it figured out today or something. 20 minutes later the phone rings, it's Ron! He takes my order over the phone and tells me my account is a mess so he'll be glad to take future orders by email or phone. He spent about 30 minutes trying to help me get my password and stuff straightened out, then just took my order right there. He's got it coming my way already. That's a dedicated guy. He went way above what a lot of vendors do.

----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
JSalow
43 posts
Jul 04, 2018
11:27 AM
I have a bunch of Marine Bands Classics, a Crossover in C, and now just recently got a Deluxe in Bb from Ron.

The recent Marine Band Classics have been universally great out of the box. Hohner really stepped up their game. Of course I've loved my Crossover, and even more since I upgraded to a Zejac comb, but it never played as easy as the classics. Now this Deluxe has put them all to shame. Very close to the crossover in quality other than the comb material and tuning and plays just as easy as the Classics but with a nice slick front and screw construction.

There is no question that the Deluxe is now my new favorite and go-to harp. Such an upgrade on the standard marine band, but not as much of a increase on price compared to the crossover. It's really a no brainer. Can't see myself getting anything else other than the Deluxes for a while.
WinslowYerxa
1589 posts
Jul 04, 2018
11:56 AM
My experience has been that the Deluxe seems set up for more aggressive playing, while the Crossover has an easier response to a wider variety of techniques.

Depending on how much work you're willing to do, you could start with the stock Marine Band, sand and chamfer and seal the comb, drill it out for screws, and do some reedwork, to arrive at something like the Crossover or Deluxe.
===========
Winslow

Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
SPAH 2018 - August 14-18 in St. Louis

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 04, 2018 4:01 PM
groyster1
3207 posts
Jul 05, 2018
5:59 AM
I have many marine band classics converted to screws and different combs....the nails are the only thing I dislike about them.....the deluxe and crossover are better constructed
jbone
2619 posts
Jul 07, 2018
3:15 AM
OK, so I ordered 3 more Deluxes from Ron Tuesday and they arrived in time for last evening's gig, once again Ron came through with flying colors!
I got a C, D, and G in addition to the A I had. I worked them all out pretty good last evening, it was an acoustic gig so they were put to the test, and they passed very well. We have 2 electric gigs in coming weeks and they will be further vetted then but first blush is, they were a good addition to my kit.

@groyster- Some 12-13 years ago I was drilling out my MB covers combs and plates, then deburring and adding hardware to them. I was not reworking the reeds at all and my bad habits were still flatting reeds so it was kind of a failed experiment. Looking back, if I had any classic MB's today I might semi customize them at least as far as converting to screws and maybe sealing the combs. Worth some thought?
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
groyster1
3208 posts
Jul 07, 2018
5:49 AM
I have some with andrew zajacs combs.....he put them on with fundamental service.......so much better than the wood
he only charged $15 for this service.....not just for the comb screws installed and the harp played better than ever.....I can see why you like manjis....I have a few and they are the closest suzuki has come to mb1896

Last Edited by groyster1 on Jul 07, 2018 12:26 PM
jbone
2627 posts
Jul 15, 2018
12:14 PM
So I used Deluxes in A, C, D, and G at the amped gig last night. And a few others like Eastop and a Manji or two, and a couple of chromatics. As much as possible I focused on the Deluxes and put them through the paces pretty well.
No regrets, these are good harps with that distinctive MB sound. I don't know exactly how that sound is achieved but it's kind of unique and satisfying.
The harps preformed well except a slight stall here or there. Good full bodied sound, crisp response. The played all up and down the register when I was in 3rd and using TB octaves and with single notes.
I'm still getting used to how they play. I noticed I did not have to push as much air through them to get the sound and tone I wanted, which was nice. What came out the amp and the p.a. was pleasing as far as I could tell and what I heard. We were paid over what we asked and we did get one $20 tip if that's any indication. I know we are very good at this music thing but the MB's certainly were an asset in my book.
If you're considering trying one my vote is, get one. Good harp!
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube


Post a Message



(8192 Characters Left)


Modern Blues Harmonica supports

§The Jazz Foundation of America

and

§The Innocence Project

 

 

 

ADAM GUSSOW is an official endorser for HOHNER HARMONICAS