Header Graphic
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > beginner going amplified
beginner going amplified
Login  |  Register
Page: 1

wrm2012
2 posts
May 03, 2018
6:55 PM
When should a beginner start playing amplified? Should I get fairly good without an amp first, or dive right in? Also what is a cheap mic a beginner should get once they start playing amplified?
nacoran
9829 posts
May 03, 2018
8:01 PM
Personally, I think that's more of a financial decision than a harmonica decision. You should always work on your acoustic tone because that gives you a cleaner idea of what you are doing, but learning to get a good cup on a mic and to deal with feedback is like learning another instrument. If your goal is to be playing on stage in a month, buy an amp and mic right away! If you are still trying to decide what you want to sound like, maybe hold off so when you buy an amp and mic it makes the sounds you want.

Some players suffer from G.A.S.- gear acquisition syndrome, and they buy tons of gear and then a couple weeks later they decide they want to play accordion instead.

I started out with a Shure Prologue, which is a cheaper version of the Shure 57. I got it in a used bin at the local music store for 10 bucks. I see one on ebay now for about $70... if you are going to spend that much you might as well go for a Shure 57 or 58, although the Prologue series does come with an on off switch. There are some other Prologue models on ebay for $30ish though. My Prologue isn't nearly as hot as a better mic- in fact when I finally got a 'good' mic I had real problems dialing the levels in with my amp because it was so hot that I had almost no room before I'd start to feed back. It all depends on how risk averse you are, but if you can do it, try a mic/amp combo. Some mics may be great with one amp and lousy with another.

You can go up from there. Greg Heumann has mics starting at about $200 and going up from there. He modifies them to work better for harp- cutting down their size to make them easier to hold, or in the case of his Buletini designing a whole new mic.

Unlike harmonicas you can go into some music stores and actually try mics and amps. I've played through Shure 58s at open mics into the PA and like them. I haven't played as much with amps. Usually I just play into the PA at open mics and as weird and uncommon a harmonica amp I have, I like it and use it for recordings. I got it and another amp at a garage sale for $30 for the pair, which means I got into amplified music for about $40 plus my harmonicas about 10 years ago. Realistically, I was really lucky. You can buy yourself a Shure 57 or 58 for $100 and be confident that you have a good mic.

----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)

First Post- May 8, 2009
jbone
2546 posts
May 03, 2018
10:56 PM
I was definitely not up to playing amped for a long time. I had to really learn how to use the instrument in detail first. This was no overnight matter. You can get Mary Had A Little Lamb down in 20 minutes but to play like whoever your harp heroes are will take considerably longer.
I know amped sound is very powerful and attractive but it must be grown into. I started with playing at jams through the p.a. and after a time I wanted my own setup. My first rig I bought because I liked the looks. Next I got a tube amp and green bullet and it was good to a point. I began the quest for tone with volume long before I had tone down from within. I tried a lot of amps and mics trying to get the perfect fit. Trouble was I kept changing as I learned more and worked with different projects.
After 25 years or so of struggle with what the right rig was, I totally changed direction to a duo format instead of the louder 4 or 5 piece format. That changed my needs a lot. Smaller tube amp with good mic to me is best tone wise. There are exceptions if you have deep pockets and plan to play with a full band but it takes careful consideration and education to make a good choice.

I notice you are new here and you state you're beginning. Why not look at Adam Gussow's stuff here for beginners and maybe youtube as well, and get your skill set started? There's time later to look at amps.

If you get to where your acoustic tone and volume are satisfactory, then is when you can start trying out amps and mics. I'm no instructor here, I just speak from my own experience and opinion. You will get lots more I'm sure.
----------


Reverbnation

Facebook

Youtube
indigo
505 posts
May 04, 2018
1:58 AM
wrm2012 @ "Should I get fairly good without an amp first, or dive right in? "
get good acoustically first before you buy an Amp otherwise it is just crap made louder.
Littoral
1601 posts
May 04, 2018
4:35 AM
I logged in to say, oh, exactly what indigo said. Eventually it is a great thing but until you really do have something tasteful to put into a mic harmonica amplified creates it's own special awful.
Flbl
163 posts
May 04, 2018
5:32 AM
I've been playing off and on for over thirty years, and only recently started getting into Amps.
It really is just another thing to learn, BUT there is a lot to learn, there was a thread a while back about what a good beginner amp and mic set up would be, there were several responses, but i don't think any two were the same.
No one but you can decide when the time is right to start playing around with amps, but at the same time you don't need an amp, and there is so much to learn without one that getting an amp too early could make it seem overwhelming just trying to learn the basics.
agarner
21 posts
May 04, 2018
6:27 AM
I would recommend heading over to your local music store and give some gear a try. A "mom and pop" style shop will give you great service and usually stand behind their used equipment for a certain time period after purchase.

I got a used 5 watt Epiphone tube amp and used SM57 for under $200 with all the cables I needed.

The guys at the shop probably won't know harmonica related information, but trial and error allows you to plug and play and see what sounds good for you. I find that the guys at my store are actually really interested in helping me because they want to learn what works for harmonica so they have a knowledge base down the road.
hvyj
3575 posts
May 04, 2018
7:07 AM
So long as you can get relatively clean single notes, it's never too early to electrify . The first and most important thing to get is a quality mic. If you need to save money, economize on the amp, not the mic.

I like the 545 Ultimate. The new Jason Ricci mic from Lone Wolf is also very good. But there are other less expensive quality mics available.

Last Edited by hvyj on May 04, 2018 7:13 AM
Glen Collins
1 post
May 04, 2018
10:10 AM
I think a beginner having a mic and amp around is a good idea. It keeps things interesting if your regular practice gets tiring. Amping-up is a lot of fun!
tomaxe
127 posts
May 04, 2018
11:02 AM
Here's something to keep in mind:
I can, having never played guitar in my life, say, sit down with a $3500 Gibson guitar tuned to open G...plug it into a Fender Super Reverb, and strum with one hand and it will sound pretty friggin' sweet.
I think for a beginner on harmonica, doing the same thing with a mic and amp wont give you the same beginner-to-quality equipment payoff. Like many instruments that require good breath and embouchure to play effectively, the mic and amp can be a distraction (albeit a fun one, perhaps) in the self-criticism of the quality of your playing at the beginner stage. I would purchase a mic and amp right away if you want to, but don't obsess over it. You don't have to get cheapo shit that will break, but there's no need to do a deep dive into mics and amps. The suggestions above are good ideas. A quality harmonica, a small, cheap tube amp and any old bullet or stick mic will do. The nuances of the equipment will matter little at this point, and your geeking out time will be better spent practicing on your harp acoustically, unless you're someone who has time and $ to spare and enjoys such gear hunting endeavors. As you practice, and realize you don't sound like your heroes on the recordings, just constantly remind yourself that: "its me...NOT the equipment" that is the problem. Practice, and have fun.
BnT
165 posts
May 05, 2018
12:12 AM
I think people have provided some great advice...not that they necessarily agree with each other. But consider the variety of equally valid perspectives you now have; how many decades of incredible experience being passed along.

I'd recommend working on chops and tone first; get an amp if you like but keep costs down - good for getting a feeling of how you sound when you play along with recordings. Tomaxe got it right.

Wait until you play well and have a band or are playing out often and need one before you start putting out the big bucks to get "the right equipment".
----------
BnT
MindTheGap
2554 posts
May 05, 2018
2:31 AM
I agree with the sentiment above that playing with mic and amp is like learning a new instrument in itself, so if that's your aim then best to get on with it now.

Analogy with guitars? If you want to play an electric, you can learn on an acoustic and much of that will transfer over. But there are also specific techniques for the electric.

I also agree with not spending to much to begin with, but there the analogy with guitars breaks down. You can buy any entry-level guitar and modelling amp these days and it WILL sound quite a lot like it should. But that's not the case with any old mic/amp for harp.

Yes, you can go to a music shop with your own harp and try mics/amps but it's not like strumming a guitar. Until you can play the harp you won't know what to listen for. Some choices won't work - and not in a subtle way.

Hence the need for a 'Beginner's Kit' selection as in that other thread. And there are a few options. Some work because they are designed for harp, like the Lone Wolf products. Some are not, but happen to work for good technical reasons.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 05, 2018 4:02 AM
kudzurunner
6471 posts
May 05, 2018
8:08 AM
I got a mic and amp within a few months of beginning the harp, so quite a bit of my playing in those first two or three years was amped. I did a lot of jamming along with records. The moment I plugged in, I felt the power! I had absolutely no conception of "tone," as a thing that could be good or not so good--or superb. I wanted to get the amplified sound that Butterfield got on the live version of "Driftin' Blues." That, to me, was great tone. So was the sound Magic Dick got on "Whammer Jammer" and James Cotton got on "Creeper Creeps Again." Each offered a different version of blues harmonica power.

It took me many years even to be able to hear just how good a player with good acoustic tone was. The moment that happened was the day I met Nat Riddles, and hearing him live was a sort of transformative thunderclap. I suddenly understood just how GOOD good acoustic tone was. I've been trying to catch up with that sound ever since.

Not every player has the ambition of playing amplified harp. Some people just want to play country blues, folk, acoustic jazz, etc. There's obviously no reason for them to worry about mics and amps.

For those beginners who love the sound of amplified harp, it's just important to distinguish between unamped and amped harp; to uphold a distinction and to continue to work on acoustic tone, even as they thrill to amplfied tone. I know many beginners who, the moment they play through a mic and amp, think they sound a whole lot better, a whole lot bluesier, than they did playing unamped.

They don't. They still sound like beginners. But most of them don't know it. They FEEL as though they've taken a step forward. They haven't. They're exactly the same level of beginner--except they're a beginning amplified blues harmonica player, not a beginning blues harmonica player. But the quality of sound, to educated ears, is exactly the same. In fact, to educated ears, it's even more annoying than the same player playing acoustically, because all the flaws are amplified. But the beginning player doesn't hear it that way. He hears that he's suddenly playing "amplified harp," and it sounds somewhat more like the real shit--again, to his ears, if not to educated ears.

So I would never tell a beginning player "Stay away from mics and amps until you've got a decent sound." I didn't do that, and my playing turned out okay. I would just say, "Don't let the mic and amp fool you into thinking your playing is any better, just BECAUSE of the mic and amp. It's not."



----------
Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition

Last Edited by kudzurunner on May 05, 2018 8:11 AM
kudzurunner
6472 posts
May 05, 2018
8:15 AM
One other thing: volume. The danger of messing with a mic and amp too early on is that the equipment can actually interfere with your ability to get a good strong acoustic tone, and your ability to project that tone powerfully, in a stable away. When you amp up, you just turn the amp up if you need more volume. You're always loud enough. That fact can and often does mask weaknesses in acoustic playing. I'm talking about a volume and tonal-solidity problem here, not "tone" per se, but the issues are of course related.


----------
Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
MindTheGap
2555 posts
May 05, 2018
9:06 AM
Re volume, I know there's a debate around: 'Good players always play gently...oh no they don't" but there is something in that isn't there? Just talking about sheer acoustic volume, it's my belief that some of the good amped sounds rely on playing gently.

I do agree that it hobbles you for playing acoustically and fighting with a guitar though.

Beginners are always being admonished for blowing/drawing too hard, choking reeds, breaking reeds and playing flat. So working with a mic/amp might be therapy for that.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 05, 2018 9:07 AM
MindTheGap
2556 posts
May 05, 2018
9:08 AM
...and on the subject of sounding like a beginner - what's wrong with that? Take up any other normal instrument and it generally sounds horrible for quite a long time. Sometimes forever!

Although I do admit that harp culture is different in that for some reason people expect to perform right away. Understandable as a lot of records have professional, often wonderful musicians, making funny sounds on a harmonica. On records, that they sell!!!

Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 05, 2018 9:12 AM
hvyj
3579 posts
May 05, 2018
9:59 PM
Regarding volume and tone, you can vary your volume and timbre quite a bit with mic handling technique, and how you position the harp relative to the mic. Assuming the mic is hand held it can be considered an extension of your instrument. Personally, I regard bullet mics as somewhat one dimensional but a decent stick mic with good proximity effect has the potential to give you a wide variety of sounds . There is no good reason IMHO to wait until you are a skilled player before you start to get experience with what you can actually do with a decent mic. And it's fun.

Last Edited by hvyj on May 05, 2018 10:01 PM


Post a Message



(8192 Characters Left)


Modern Blues Harmonica supports

§The Jazz Foundation of America

and

§The Innocence Project

 

 

 

ADAM GUSSOW is an official endorser for HOHNER HARMONICAS