LFLISBOA
25 posts
Apr 16, 2018
9:41 AM
|
Hi,
Some Hohner models (not diatonic or chromatic) feature "bell metal reeds" written on their cover. Is it actually reeds made from bells metal or is it just expression Hohner used at time?
If so, does it mean am improvement on their tone or not?
Thanks
|
florida-trader
1300 posts
Apr 16, 2018
10:51 AM
|
It is fairly certain that you are referring to a vintage harmonica. Many of the pre-war Hohners were made with "Bell Metal Reeds". This is does not mean that Hohner recycled bells and turned them into harmonicas. Brass is a combination of Copper and Zinc and there are many different variations. One would think that the brass used in bells would have very desirable resonant qualities. Was this a marketing slogan or is this really what Hohner used back then? Hard to say, but there are a lot people who are big fans of the vinatage harps and how they play, myself included, and many attribute that, at least in part, to the type of brass that was used.
If you get multiple responses to your post, you are likely to get differing opinions, so I don't think you will get a definitive answer to your question about tone. Good post though.
----------
Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
|
SuperBee
5375 posts
Apr 16, 2018
3:05 PM
|
I don’t put much stock in the reed material having a big impact on tone. I think that isn’t really a significant factor in the way a harmonica makes a sound.
Reedplate thickness, and coverplate design, comb dimensions and size of chamber I think all have much more impact than reed material. I think it’s s challenge to pick steel from brass, I’m sure I’d have no hope picking out different brass/bronze alloys. Reed setup will make a difference in attack and dynamics. I don’t know, maybe with all other factors equal, testing equipment could tell the difference between red brass and yellow brass and phosphor bronze but I think my head-side equipment is not calibrated finely enough
|
florida-trader
1301 posts
Apr 16, 2018
4:01 PM
|
SuperBee - I would tend to agree with you but there is one thing that I hadn't thought about much until a recent "Aha moment". Sound is a consideration for sure, but elasticity and resistance to failure are big factors in determining what type of crass was used. I think the nugget of information I heard or read somewhere was that the Marine Band became very popular because the reeds lasted longer than other harps from that era. I might not be able to hear a difference but I can tell a difference between a reed that holds its pitch and doesn't break and one that goes flat and fails easily.
----------
Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
|
MP
3581 posts
Apr 16, 2018
6:38 PM
|
I have an Echo Vamper w/ the legend Bell Metal Reeds on the cover plate. It's a pre 364 low C. I kinda like it even though the covers are almost as deep as
a CX-12 Chro. Well, maybe not that deep but pretty deep on the embouchure. Lucky for me I don't notice after a few seconds. Wellll,I tuned it up and can't tell the difference from a 365 low C played back and forth.
I notice slight differences in warmth of tone and play-a-bility (izzat a word?) w/ pre-war mouse ears but I may be fooling myself. The biggest difference in tone I've ever heard is the B-Rad up against...anything. It kinda honks. Nice, but not what I like. But then again, it's probably just me. One thing for certain. No one can tell what make or model harp I'm playing in live situs or sitting across the table from me. It's always, "whatcha playing now, Mark?"
----------
Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
.
Last Edited by MP on Apr 16, 2018 6:42 PM
|
groyster1
3138 posts
Apr 17, 2018
6:24 AM
|
I have full sets of pre war marine bands and also the mouse ear marine bands that are older than methsula.....there must be something to the bell metal brass reeds that they have.........mine still play very well
|
barbequebob
3500 posts
Apr 18, 2018
8:40 AM
|
That particular brass was last made prior to WWII and it was a softer, but stronger brass and that was what was a big part of the quality of the sound of pre-WWII Hohners.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
MP
3583 posts
Apr 18, 2018
2:39 PM
|
George, I think it is lead in the alloy but I'm not sure.
----------
Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
.
|
SuperBee
5379 posts
Apr 18, 2018
3:34 PM
|
Hi Tom, yeah I get watcha saying about elasticity and resistance to failure. In fact I was thinking about that but edited out before I posted because I saw the op was only asking about effect on tone and I tend to blather anyway.
I bought some broken harps to repair. Was building one up on a nice comb the other day and just could not get a decent result from the 2 slot reeds. I ended up discarding them and replacing with some reeds taken from ‘bad period’ hohners.
I can’t say how long they’ll last but in the 2 slots I think won’t be much of an issue. These are yellow brass with the corners nicked out as they were back then. Anyway, it fixed the problems immediately. Usually I can get a good result from just reshaping a hohner reed but the original s in this early 2000s marine band were so flimsy.
I have a lot of these old bad hohners. I use the reeds in my own harps but I don’t like to put them in the harps I restore for other folk
|
groyster1
3141 posts
Apr 18, 2018
6:45 PM
|
I will probably bring couple of my pre war marine bands to HCH.......I have a mouse ear Bb that has sick 7 draw......otherwise plays very well......maybe somebody can help......and it was last of my collection of mouse ears.....even found one in B that did not have to bid on
|
MindTheGap
2549 posts
Apr 18, 2018
11:25 PM
|
Bell Metal is bronze, not brass isn't it?
In every other area of manufacturing, materials and processes have improved enormously over these decades. But I like the idea that the ancients had some magic formula that has now been lost.
I remember when buying a Ford Capri the main worry was bodywork rust, and it was a game of working out what the previous owner had replaced with filler and made to look good, for a month or so. Now, not a problem.
"They don't make them like they used to" - thank goodness for that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 18, 2018 11:27 PM
|
groyster1
3142 posts
Apr 19, 2018
4:32 AM
|
its called bell metal brass.......and its probably not available anymore because it contained lead
Last Edited by groyster1 on Apr 19, 2018 4:33 AM
|
florida-trader
1303 posts
Apr 19, 2018
4:50 AM
|
I found this website that has some very interesting information about metals. Inquiring minds might want to check it out.
Difference between Copper, Brass & Bronze
It has some good information about the metals that we find in our harps, depending upon the brand and model we play. For example, Suzuki uses Phosphor Bronze to make their reeds. Seydel uses Nickel Silver to make reed plates. It specifically mentions that several of the alloys are commonly used to make musical instruments. Go figure.
Accoding to Wikipeida:
“Bell metal is a hard alloy used for making bells and related instruments, such as cymbals. It is a form of bronze with a higher tin content, usually in approximately a 4:1 ratio of copper to tin (typically, 78% copper, 22% tin by mass). The higher tin content increases the rigidity of the metal and increases the resonance. It also has industrial uses, being specified for valve bodies, piston rings, bearings, and bushings.”
Bell Metal
It would seem that harmonica manufacturers seek to identify an alloy that delivers a good combination of flexibility, durability and musical tone. Which of these is “best” is probably a debate that will never be resolved. Makes life interesting doesn’t it?
----------
Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
|
Thievin' Heathen
1000 posts
Apr 19, 2018
5:49 AM
|
Still - Keep in mind, it might have simply been a marketing slogan. But, if not, all those 75 year old Echos with moldy combs on Ebay might be gold mines for replacement reeds.
|
groyster1
3143 posts
Apr 19, 2018
6:42 AM
|
was not aware of the tin.....for whatever reason these ancient harps have stood the test of time.....take a lickin` keeps on tickin`
|
MindTheGap
2550 posts
Apr 19, 2018
7:13 AM
|
Interesting stuff, never heard of bell metal brass. I thought that most brasses have some lead in them. A bit of a concern I'd have thought not so much on reeds but on reed plates. Then again, mercury fillings used for 150 years...
I'd vote for phosphor bronze for reeds - really springy and corrosion resistant. Brass is probably the worst - I bet they used it because it's cheap and easy to work with rather than some magical acoustic properties.
|
groyster1
3145 posts
Apr 19, 2018
10:42 AM
|
dont think that is so.....these mouse ear marine bands are very old but so many still play very well.....I have A B Bb C D E F and G......they are apparently much more flexible.....I guessing you live in the UK with your london tube station moniker.....here in the USA the EPA cracked down on lead in anything
|
groyster1
3147 posts
Apr 19, 2018
11:01 AM
|
suzuki harps have phosphor bronze reeds.....do you think they will still play 90 or more years from now?
|
MP
3585 posts
Apr 19, 2018
2:37 PM
|
I'm fairly sure at least one of my mouse ear MBs is 100 yrs old.
----------
Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
.
Last Edited by MP on Apr 19, 2018 2:39 PM
|
groyster1
3148 posts
Apr 19, 2018
2:43 PM
|
yes mark......I was informed that pre war mouse ears were pre ww1......maybe or maybe not......the gerries were/are master craftsman.....watches,clocks,pocket knives,volkswagon beetles......they need credit too
|
MP
3586 posts
Apr 19, 2018
3:09 PM
|
Indeed George, even if my oldest was made in 1919 or in the 20s it says a lot for brass and the Germans too
----------
Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
.
|
groyster1
3149 posts
Apr 19, 2018
5:01 PM
|
aloha bro......I became obsessed with these harps......ancient......even more than me......but do they ever play well
|
Bilzharp
165 posts
Apr 20, 2018
8:20 AM
|
Thievin' Heathen said: "But, if not, all those 75 year old Echos with moldy combs on Ebay might be gold mines for replacement reeds."
Shhhhh....
I'm just kidding, there seem to be plenty of junk echo harps to go around but I've acquired a handful of them for just that reason.
|
MP
3588 posts
Apr 21, 2018
4:53 PM
|
My Echo Vamper is thankfully not a tremolo model. It's a great harp built at a great time for Hohner. It's no wonder groyster loves his pre-wars. I love mine too. One mouse ear C was given to me. The reed plates were shaped like wings, the comb was a twisted toothy thing, and aside from verdigris, there was lots of rust. It is the only harp I own where I used paper tape to gasket it. Nowadays I have a tool to straighten plates. Well, many hours and days later I wound up with a beautiful, loud, smooth harp. I used 4 0080 reed plate screws and the covers use 4 0090s. The 0090s give it the original nail look. I love it. Oneday I'll need to take it apart but I've figured out how to do it w/out ruining the comb due to the surgical tape.
----------
Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
.
|
