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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
need your help to crowd-source an answer
need your help to crowd-source an answer
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kudzurunner
6405 posts
Jan 16, 2018
2:07 PM
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I got an email today from an enthusiastic novice player who said the following:
"If possible, please send me a list of what I need to buy to add amplification. I studied your site, see references to bits and pieces, but I'm no an audiophobe. Is there some kind of PACKAGE for beginners that includes all the STUFF (mic, cables, batteries, amps, preamps, postamps. mixers, tonics, spirits, whatever....I want to play, I don't want to go to electronics school."
He's right. I offer a few suggestions about amps, mics, a pedal or two, but I don't actually say, "Here's a great beginner setup" and then offer links to purchase points.
So told him that I'll share his query here and share the link with him. Please describe an excellent, reasonably-priced beginner's setup: a first-pass for a player looking to amplify the harp. I'm talking about new, commonly available, off the shelf stuff. Best value for the money, and suitable for a beginner. I'm especially interested in mic/amp combinations. Please suggest away and post a combined price, so we've got a point of comparison for whatever conversation follows. (Links to purchase points, too, if you can.)
And yes, of COURSE I know that it's not about the amp and mic, it's about the acoustic harmonica sound. Please have that debate elsewhere. For once I'm just asking about gear.
Let's assume that we're talking about the following:
--mic
--amp
--pedal (if you think there's an essential pedal for beginners)
--cable (often ignored in these sorts of conversations, but quality counts, as we know)
Again: NEW components only, please, not some cheap great antique that a beginner might possibly track down, or not, in a pawnshop, or purchase from a used mic/amp purveyor.
When and if some sort of consensus emerges, I will create a new page on this site and make it easy for somebody to purchase these components.
Thanks in advance.
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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 16, 2018 2:15 PM
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rogonzab
1040 posts
Jan 16, 2018
3:26 PM
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Great idea!
Mic: Superlux D112 (Cheap and good enough)
Amp: Fender Champion 40 (Lots of sounds, lightweight and powerfull)
Pedal: Joyo analog delay (cheap and sounds good!)
Pedal: Lone Wolf Mojo Pad (for any amp)
Cable: Anything above $10
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Last Edited by rogonzab on Jan 16, 2018 3:27 PM
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Rontana
444 posts
Jan 16, 2018
4:58 PM
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I'm of a mind that, for a brand-new player, you go with something good but inexpensive.
I'd suggest one of Jim McBride's "Bottle o' Blues" mics and a Little Smokey amp. Total price is around $100.
Here's a link to the source.
Bottle o' Blues & Smokey Amp
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 16, 2018 5:04 PM
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MindTheGap
2447 posts
Jan 17, 2018
3:05 AM
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My specialist subject. I agree with rogonzab, apart from you don't need the Mojo Pad (expensive and unnecessary in this setup)
Pedal: Joyo American Sound. Amazing value for money, and hugely versatile. This is ESSENTIAL not optional for a beginner!
I agree with the delay pedal choice, but it is optional and the Champion has some delay built in. Not as configurable though.
Alternative MIC: Pyle-Pro PDMIC78 + XLR cable + generic Impedance Matching Transformer. That set will come in at a similar price to the Superlux. Gives a choice between a stick mic and a trad-looking bullet.
(Prices quick lookup on Amazon)
Superlux D112C $55
PylePro PDMIC78 $12
IMT $21
Joyo American Sound $39
Fender Champion 40 $180
So total of about $275 or $250 plus cables.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 17, 2018 3:20 AM
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boris_plotnikov
1146 posts
Jan 17, 2018
4:32 AM
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545SD-LC wired for hi impedance $100
Canare XLR to 1/4" Hi-Z Cable 15 ft. $50
ZT Lunchbox Junior amp $200
That can be a minimalistic set to start practicing and it is upgradable and you don't need to sell any of this toys when you want to upgrade. E.g. if you buy a good bullet mic you can keep 545 for amp micing. You will want to keep your ZT, as portable amp for small acoustic gigs or recording. You potentially can start with some Chinese mics and tube amps, but you will want to sell them for upgrade. Not in this case.
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My website. My album with Mikhail Bashakov. Seydel endorser. LoneWolf Blues Co endorser. Harmonica teacher. My facebook.
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kudzurunner
6406 posts
Jan 17, 2018
4:46 AM
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Thanks, folks! Keep 'em coming! Please feel free to post/link photos of the gear, to whet the imaginations of those for whom the make/model numbers don't evoke any visuals.
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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
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MindTheGap
2448 posts
Jan 17, 2018
7:42 AM
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The ZT Lunchbox seems a good amp, but does it give the classic distorted harp sound beginners are likely to want? The Champion does, as does the Joyo AS.
ZT plus AS, that might be good.
I have to be the one to push back against the expensive cables for an entry-level setup. Heresy I know. I'm sure they are lovely, and last forever, well until they are nicked. This isn't Hi-Fi and there's a law of diminishing returns.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 17, 2018 7:43 AM
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Dox
84 posts
Jan 17, 2018
8:43 AM
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Hi,
In general my approch is "who spend more, spend less!", but for beginner is different so let's proceed with order, considering:
- A beginner doesn't WANT to spend too much for gears.
- A beginner doesn't HAVE to spend too little in order to avoid problems do to the poor gear quality.
- A beginner have to make into account a minimum budget.
- A beginner "has no sound", have to create its sound. So he need some sound possibilities to explore.
Sayd that, I recommend:
MIC: Shure SM57 (less expensive then the 545 but really good). Versatile enough and is easy you hold this mic for all your musician life, even if y'll don't use it a lot in the future (maybe, because micing a cab will be an importan thing and this mic do that very well). To add an IMT.
AMP: I don't recommend a valve amp for a beginner. I recommend me too the Fender Champion 40 (or 20, tested one some weeks ago). I don't like this one but it's a good choice for beginner.
PEDALS: in order to play with different sounds (so in order to training the ears) I suggest to start with 2 good pedals:
LW Harp Break.
BBE Two Timer.
I know, the Harp-Break is a little expensive but, like the SM57, is easy y'll hold this pedal for a long time because will be useful for both solid and valve amps. Fender champion already has a reverb, but the the BBE Two Timer is a common "2nd-hand" pedal and it cost few bucks (I took mine in mint condition for 60$ with shipment included).
CABLES: I don't think that at this stage cables are crucial or a worry. Any entry-level or medium cables will work fine.
At the end, I think the minimum budget of 450/500$ is a good starting point to have good gears which you can expand in future.
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 17, 2018 8:47 AM
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dougharps
1676 posts
Jan 17, 2018
8:59 AM
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The missing info in the OP is whether this is for learning amplification in your home, or looking for a setup powerful enough to play out. I would vote for spending a little more and getting gear that you could use to play out, so you don't have such limited home only use for your purchase and have to buy more to play out.
The Champion 40 looks like a bargain rig powerful enough that you could play gigs. If I were starting out I would try one out.
I also hear good things about the Pyle mic noted above. During a recent thread I discovered that it is now wired for low z, so an XLR to a transformer would be appropriate. I like an SM57, but it is not much of a bargain, though it may be more durable than the Pyle.
I keep hearing good things about the Joyo American sound distortion pedal. I have found that distortion pedals often add too much gain, but this pedal has good reviews for harp. I have used a Bad Monkey pedal, but had to adjust quite a bit to avoid gain leading to feedback.
Of all effects, I like slapback delay best for harp. Danelectro PB&J or Joyo should be a low cost delay. But I would not suggest starting with effects when learning to play amplified.
My suggestion would be to buy something powerful enough to play out, such as the Champion 40, get the Pyle or an SM57 and a matching transformer. First mess with the mic and amp without a pedal.
Then add either distortion or a delay, and after using them for a while and learning to adjust it, get the other pedal.
But I would start with the mic and amp alone first in order to learn to manage one thing at a time and to learn to manage the mic and amp alone. Buy mid priced cables.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 17, 2018 8:59 AM
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MindTheGap
2449 posts
Jan 17, 2018
9:08 AM
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I'm a big fan of the Harp Break, but honestly the Joyo American Sound is better in this context: because it has more variety of sound. It's also a lot cheaper. It's not so much that it's 'good for harp', more that it has very wide range of control so it can work with all kinds of mics and amps, and give a range of clean to distorted sounds.
I think there is a distinction between two motives for this:
A. a kit that is higher quality, more expensive bits, less variety of sound but can be the basis of a bigger rig later.
B. a cheaper kit that has more variety of sound right away, and lets the beginner explore. But some bits may need to be replaced later. Maybe also includes the 'home vs away' playing as Doug mentions.
I reckon if you accept the need for two types of kit in the recommendation, that will resolve the debate easily.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 17, 2018 9:14 AM
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MindTheGap
2450 posts
Jan 17, 2018
9:22 AM
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...on that tack, here's a really good setup that's for home practice or playing with a quiet group of friends:
Nux Mighty 8 ~$100?
Superlux D11C $55
I'm not in the US so can't check the prices there. But that's all you need.
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Dox
85 posts
Jan 17, 2018
9:31 AM
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MindTheGap you are right. I can accept to change my "pedals recommend" into: Joyo American and BBE Two Timer, saving 100$...
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 17, 2018 9:31 AM
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harpoon_man
228 posts
Jan 17, 2018
10:49 AM
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While I don't any specific equipment recommendations for now, I will say that it was a huge help to me as a beginning amplified player in the late 1990's to practice with a small solid-state amp with a headphone jack.
Hearing my sound through the headphone jack allowed me to listen very carefully to the tones I was making, particularly the changes in sound resulting from hand grip on my JT30. This helped me to refine my mic technique and advance rapidly as an amplified player. The techniques learned on the solid state amp translated very well to playing tube amps once I started acquiring those.
Based on this, my general rig recommendation for beginners would be to find an amp with a headphone jack to aid you in getting your mic technique down.
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jbone
2450 posts
Jan 17, 2018
11:13 AM
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My first rig was a Crate II solid state amp, maybe 10 watts, with a small throat type mic. It was a very dry sound until I put a Boss DD3 in line. I never gigged with it but it taught me some things about how I actually sounded and could sound. The delay was also a good tool to loop stuff although I don't do that these days.
My next rig was a '63 Fender Princeton Tremolo with a pre 80's Shure Green Bullet mic.
Both rigs cost under $300.
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Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
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boris_plotnikov
1148 posts
Jan 17, 2018
12:55 PM
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Dox
I am happy to practice 545 + Lunchbox without any pedals, just get the gain and tone sweet spots. Yes it is not that Dennis Gruenling / Garry Smith / Kim Wilson tone but it sounds very good. Also Lunchbox Jr is my main gig amp now, I just put it as close to my ears as possible, split signal using DI box and ask some more DI harmonica into monitors and most of gigs I am happy with it for my goals (I rather often go from clean cup to distorted using my pedals).
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My website. My album with Mikhail Bashakov. Seydel endorser. LoneWolf Blues Co endorser. Harmonica teacher. My facebook.
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Dox
86 posts
Jan 17, 2018
2:56 PM
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Yes boris, I know, and your sound is really awesome. But here the game is to find a best trade-off among costs-versatility-simplicity for beginner. So for me, a good choice is what I said in the previous post. Summarizing:
Shure SM57.
Champion 20/40.
Joyo American + BBE Two timer.
Entry/mid level cables.
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 17, 2018 2:58 PM
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Flbl
75 posts
Jan 17, 2018
3:19 PM
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It's too late for me, I already put together a low cost rig.
Most of my testing sound wise came from YOU TUBE, I don't think I got a bad combination though.
Shaker Mic high Z $80.00
Pig Hog cable $20.00
Pignose 7-300/ Hog30, $150.00.
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boris_plotnikov
1149 posts
Jan 17, 2018
11:24 PM
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Dox
You rig is a good choice too. Don't forget Whirlwind Little Imp impedance transformer. As far as I know Champion 20/40 have built in delay, so I don't think we need two timer. It also have gain, volume and fender amp modelling, so I think we can get a nice distortion from amp itself, I once played it in a club, it sounded good.
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My website. My album with Mikhail Bashakov. Seydel endorser. LoneWolf Blues Co endorser. Harmonica teacher. My facebook.
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MindTheGap
2451 posts
Jan 18, 2018
12:26 AM
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Re the impedance matching transformer, if you have the Joyo AS and Lo-Z SM57 or PylePro PDMIC78, then you can use the cheaper XLR-1/4" cable. This came for free with the PylePro. To reduce the total kit price. Though playing the mic through other kit will require the IMT later.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 18, 2018 2:43 AM
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Dragonbreath
98 posts
Jan 18, 2018
2:04 AM
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The low low budget starter kit:
Danelectro Honeytone amp (it has vol, tone and drive controls, headphone output, and is at least heaps and miles better than the smokey crap Rontana recommended, at half price at that). 20$
http://www.turboharp.com/honeytone-mini
I'd pair with an aiwa dm-14 or akai dm-13 mic.
Ok not of the shelf but they never break and you can always find one on ebay for about 30$. Cable included.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xakai+dm1.TRS0&_nkw=akai+dm13&_sacat=0
I would also add a 9V power supply for the amp cause it eats batteries like crazy, but the 9V power supply works with just about any pedal and will always come useful with future gear.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/outlaw-effects-outlaw-9v-dc-power-adapter
That's 55$ for a perfectly fine first home practice amp and mic kit.
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Dox
87 posts
Jan 18, 2018
2:25 AM
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....remember that Pignose, Superlux, Shaker products and so on are really difficult to find in europe and they costs much more (do to customs and tax costs). If these reccomandation are for "world-wide" users, I think is a better idea to stay on well-distributed brand like fender, joyo, shure, ZT and similar stuffs.
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 18, 2018 2:26 AM
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MindTheGap
2453 posts
Jan 18, 2018
2:46 AM
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Availability is a good point, as in the OP. The Superlux mic is available in the UK, and it's on Thomann so I guess throughout Europe.
It's true that anything you have to import form the US is going to have a big mark up, especially these days.
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Flbl
78 posts
Jan 18, 2018
7:22 AM
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Good point, maybe there should be there should be more than one basic kit based on availability and cost.
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Dox
88 posts
Jan 18, 2018
8:09 AM
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Flbl, maybe....but at maximum 2 kits I think...to avoid re-fall into "and now which kit I choice?!?!" hahahahaaha
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LFLISBOA
14 posts
Jan 18, 2018
9:17 AM
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I think that a SM57 or SM58 with a matching transformer and a Digitech RP series would be the cheapiest solution for practice. There's some cheap solid state amp that emulate vintage sound and has some effects.
I wouldn't go to tube amps as a begginer.
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Flbl
79 posts
Jan 18, 2018
9:27 AM
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Dox, I was thinking about six, North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Australia, and Africa/Middle East. Or at least get it narrowed down the the best 300 choices lol.
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AppalachiaBlues
116 posts
Jan 18, 2018
10:08 AM
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I think for a novice player, it is important to focus on playing, rather than gear. If/when she/he advances, the gear obsession and acquisition phase will come naturally. So if a newbie wanted a recommendation on a starter kit, here's my recommendation:
VOX Mini 5 Rhythm + Superlux D112 mic. That's it. Nothing else. No cables, no pedals, no transformers, no DI boxes, nothing else.
The D112 mic is inexpensive and sounds pretty decent. It is rugged, and can be dropped repeatedly (which a beginner will do). It has a nice size, shape, and weight for learning to cup a bullet. It has a cable attached. It has a volume knob. It is not prone to feedback. Overall, it is an excellent "first mic" for 40€/50US$. (It was my first mic many years ago).
The VOX Mini 5 sounds pretty good, for it's size and price (150€/180US$). It can be played quietly at home, but it can also get pretty loud for playing along with guitar buddies. The variable power switch is really nice. Secondly, it has a range of amp models and effects. So a novice player can experiment with a range of different sounds, without having to enter the "world of pedals". The VOX can also run on batteries, so when your family is sick of hearing you practice, you can take it outside somewhere to play. And when you are ready (brave enough), you can have your first go at busking. Also, the drum machine is a really great feature for a novice player. It will help him/her learn to play with the beat, and understand the groove, and playing ahead/behind the beat. Speeding up the tempo on a 12-bar blues is a great way to "raise the bar" to aid the learning process. Its much more fun than a metronome. And finally, the input jack for an iPod/MP3/etc. will enable you to play along with jam tracks or songs. This feature is very valuable for a beginner.
As a "first amp" the VOX will provide huge learning and great fun. Its like a Swiss army knife. But later, once you've moved up to a high-end tube amp, you still may want to play with the little Vox from time to time. If not... it will be very easy to re-sell.
So for a simple starter kit, our novice has invested 190€/230US$, on top of the six or seven keys of SP20s + a case to keep them in. Now he/she should stop shopping for gear, and learn to play. The itch for gear upgrades will come soon enough... especially if our student is reading this forum every week :-)
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Jan 18, 2018 10:25 AM
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rogonzab
1042 posts
Jan 18, 2018
10:53 AM
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A begginer needs a 5w amp?
I mean, the moment he or she wants to play whit other people that amp is useless. Begginers dont have enough acustic volume to make that little amp work whit others.
The Champion 40 is great because is a 40w amp! it workss in the house and in lots of gigs. of course that any amp can work for learning, but there is no point for a begginer having to buy a small amp and then a bigger one.
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
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SuperBee
5198 posts
Jan 18, 2018
11:22 AM
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Wezo ME-18
Ultimate 57 or Heumann bullet/element
wireless rig from various sources as appropriate for location
That’ll do.
These cats won’t die wondering and if they get fed up they’ll sell their gear second hand.
This’ll be great,
It’s gonna be a real boost to Greg’s business and Mike’s business. There’ll soon be a supply of really cool lightly used gear available all over the world.
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Rontana
445 posts
Jan 18, 2018
2:45 PM
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Doughharps made an excellent point when he said:
"The missing info in the OP is whether this is for learning amplification in your home, or looking for a setup powerful enough to play out."
Many of the responses here seem geared toward the idea of someone eventually playing out, and wanting/needing to upgrade. That's not necessarily the case with the person who posed the question to Adam.
Many people buy pianos and guitars (and other instruments, including harp) for their own private enjoyment. They play daily, but have no desire to ever perform (I happen to be in that category both with guitar and harp).
Thus, I think the player's objectives are crucial when considering equipment. All this said, I would second Appalachian Blues recommendation of the Vox Mini-5. I've got one of those, and though I don't use it often, it's sometimes a ton of fun for my purposes. But, I also like a Smokey so I can just plug in a cable and walk around annoying the dogs, hoot owls, and coyotes (the sole Danelectro I ever bought went toes-up in about a week. That's not a scientific sampling, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Your mileage may vary).
I tend to spend money on high-quality harps, but not much on gear.
This is a perspective not frequently heard on the forum - the "at home only" player - but for more than a few folks it might be applicable.
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 18, 2018 2:48 PM
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MindTheGap
2456 posts
Jan 18, 2018
2:45 PM
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rogonzab I agree with you.
Rontana - the Fender Champion works for both home practice and playing out, so in that sense it's ideal for a beginner's kit because the question of 'home or away' is covered.
Ah ha Superbee I see your cunning plan! Wireless rig?? A guitar-playing friend just bought a Line 6 amp, and it came with built-in wireless, and a sender unit. Seems to work very well, and without fuss.
As for the 'beginners should focus on playing not gear' chestnut, we were asked not to go on about that - just for once :) But since it's been brought up: I'm not a very good player but I know the amplification gear makes a massive difference to the sound. And indeed whether an audience can even hear what I'm playing. The harps, over a certain level of quality and adjustment, don't.
Different mics, pedals, amps make an actual, demonstrable, significant difference to the sound. That's what I like in fact. Much, much more than different makes and models of harp do. Beginners should be allowed to join the party.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 18, 2018 3:00 PM
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dougharps
1677 posts
Jan 18, 2018
4:17 PM
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Regarding the "acoustic tone" issue we are not to discuss:
Playing harp amplified or not requires practice. Unamplified playing requires practice to develop skills in knowing where the notes are, articulation technique, and tone.
Using a mic on a stand requires practice to manage the mic and PA through how you address the mic and use your hands.
Playing amplified with a handheld mic with a loose cup or tight cup takes practice. Adjusting amps and effects requires practice.
If you plan to play amplified, then you have to practice with gear that amplifies. It is another part of the skill set required to play harp.
EDIT: Using headphones or a really quiet amp will not teach you to minimize risk of feedback through mic technique and amp adjustments.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 19, 2018 8:59 AM
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rogonzab
1045 posts
Feb 02, 2018
9:14 AM
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Any more opinions on this?
This can be a very helpfull info for beginers.
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
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garry
703 posts
Feb 02, 2018
3:57 PM
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I'd just add this detail: I've found quality braided cables to be wonderful to use. They tend to cost only a little more, maybe $15 for 1/4, $29 for XLR. But they are resistant to tangles, easy to pack up, and a pleasure to use.
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2plankr
94 posts
Feb 03, 2018
2:01 PM
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Mic- JT 30 with a black label CR element
Amp- started with a Memphis Mini
Pedal- Carbon Copy delay
Cable- from Greg Huemann
Last Edited by 2plankr on Feb 03, 2018 2:02 PM
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shakeylee
729 posts
Feb 03, 2018
4:01 PM
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Sm57
Fender solid state
Impedance transformer
Practice
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www.shakeylee.com
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