I've heard many great players mention this, but never really elaborate on it. Dougharp recently mentioned this in a thread so I thought I would bring it up too see if there were specific tips for fighting feedback by properly handling the mic in some fashion. Other than just "get a tight cup. "
I suppose I should open this to any and all mic handling tips while I'm at it, but ....that's ever I waned to know specifically.
Mainly I just stay aware of where my monitor is and keep my mic out of the ‘zone’. And usually I run an in-line VC, which I habitually zero when I’m not playing. The drag with that is that because I do that without thinking, I have to cultivate the habit of turning it back up again. Sometimes I start playing and find the mic is turned down.
I formed this habit years ago. At one time I bought a noisegate pedal and I found no benefit from it; i already was acting as a manual noisegate, and I didn’t cut the tails off everything. The only times I’ve missed that pedal were the odd occasions I’ve had no VC.
Apart from that, when things were really loud and I needed all the volume I could get, I would stand next to my amp, using my body to shield the mic from the speaker. Probably why my left ear is better than my right though.
I have just 2 mics these days, one with a vc and one with an on-off switch. Frankly we seldom play very loud in the duo but I have the option of cutting the mic off or cutting volume to zero when necessary. I found this to be a good feature with full bands some years ago. Feedback usually is only when the mic is at rest unless you're turned up way high. Keeping gain down a bit, highs rolled off some. I like full volume at the mic and adjust the amp settings to work. ----------
Yea I understand about setting up the amp. I should have posted this from the start... but here is the post that got me to bring up the subject.
"Rather than add to gear suggestions I will note that mic handling and cupping is a major factor in reducing feedback while increasing volume. Also, amp adjustments including gain and master volume (if the amp comes that way), treble, and bass will affect feedback and volume issues. You need to mess with the gear at high volume to find what works for your sound. Amp placement makes a difference, too.
A related issue is the ability of the player to cup to project tone into a mic and to manage high volume gear without feedback. Yes, the effects/mic/amp/speaker combinations and feedback reduction gear do make a difference, but so does the player. All the gear in the world won't substitute for a player building those mic handling and cupping skills... and tone.
I have used other player's rigs without changing a setting and been asked to turn down, and I have heard other players using my rig and not be heard. Others step up and create massive sound with the same gear without squealing.
You can tell which players have the ability to get good tone through any gear they use, as well as who can manage gear to get the most volume before feedback.
Oh, just to be clear: I am not NEARLY the best at doing this among the many players I have encountered, just reasonably good at it. Maybe near the 80% mark?
Once a player has the gear to achieve volume and tone without feedback, then they need to work on learning how to use it to optimum effect, and without constantly causing squealing feedback. ----------
Doug S."
I was just looking for some more details on the subject of mic handling as it applies to fighting feedback and "making any gear sound good" as it were.
A good tight cup and turning your back to the amp only goes so far. Is there more to it that I'm missing? Im sure there is .... that's why I ask.
The response quoted above was posted by me because a guitar player posted here, seeking to obtain gear for a harp player so that the harp could be heard in a loud band.
The reason I posted what is quoted was to make the point that there are skills to be developed and that gear alone will not do the job.
As someone who has decent skills, but is not the best at this, I see that much has already been noted above by me and others.
Superbee pointed out amp placement and blocking the mic with your body, as well as use of volume control when not playing. This has to become automatic. Killa noted my mention of setting up the amp. This also includes the levels on the volume on the mic, since the mic/amp interaction changes with adjustments to gain, tone, and volume of the amp as well as with different amps. I find that different volume settings on mics are needed with different amps.
If you have to turn up your small amp too loud to hear yourself (if mic'd) or to try to be heard over a loud band, then you are likely to get feedback, so you need an amp big enough for the job.
The type of mic makes a difference since an omnidirectional bullet is more susceptible to feedback than a cardiod directional dynamic. I can get the most volume before feedback with my 585SAV, but it doesn't sound the same as a bullet. I pick depending on the stage and band volume. My bullet might sound better, but if it cannot be heard over the band, I will go with the 585. The specifics of each room's acoustics affect feedback, too, so what works at home or on one stage may not work the same on another.
Killa mentions tight cupping. This may be taken so far as to block the back of the harp with a finger and front harp holes not in use with your cheek to channel all the sound to the mic. Greg Heumann speaks of this approach, and he gets great amped tone.
Deak gets amazing acoustic tone and massive amped tone. If you can deliver loud resonant harp tone directly into a mic (NOT by blowing or sucking real hard, but by resonating the tone in your airway), then the amp/mic combination doesn't need to be turned up as far to get volume. Deak and others talk about upright posture that maximizes using all your lungs, down to your diaphragm.
Good acoustic tone carries over to amped tone. If you have weak, thin tone then you are likely to turn everything up too much to try to be heard and cause feedback or if you don't turn up you just won't be heard. I have seen this many times.
I know, I know... the always mentioned and often resented acoustic tone issue being brought up during a gear discussion!
I am certain that there is more to optimal use of your rig than what I have mentioned. I most likely do things unconsciously that I have not mentioned. AND I am far from having mastered all this!
The most important point is that all of the above, plus what I likely neglected to note, plus the stuff I don't know yet has to be practiced over and over with different gear in different settings until you learn to adjust and tweak to get the most out of your gear. Just like when you learn to play harp and develop automatic changes to get the sound you want.
Talking/writing about it can give info to get you started, but just as in playing the damned things, you have to put in the time just trying different techniques. Different gear in different settings will perform differently, and the individual player needs to learn how to make it work the best for their skill level and their sound. I am still working on it...
Good acoustic tone doesn't mean good amped tone, but without decent acoustic tone you cannot expect an amp and mic to make you sound great.
So even if the guitar player obtains a mic/effects/amp rig for the harp player that is big enough to do the job and has the capacity to sound great, the harp player needs to have decent tone and then put in the time to learn to get the most out of it. ----------
Thanks Doug. Yea, I left your name on the quote so people who know who it was from.
I suppose I neglected to attach the subject of the thread in which it was posted. I knew exactly what you were getting at .. I just wondered if there were any magic secrets that I had yet to figure out.
I think it's very important to bring up acoustic tone in gear discussions. Some people still don't get it. I know I didn't when I bought my first amp ... lol.
I spend most of my time playing acoustic harp, but have recently been spending more time honing my amp skills.
I've graduated from 5 watt amps and am getting a crash course in fighting feedback from bigger amps. Part of the issue is the small rooms in playing in at home, but... never afraid to ask if there's something I'm missing.
I've heard your point about mic technique as it pertains to feedback brought up many times by other players.... Figored it was time to ask if I was missing something. Lol.
It would be great if some of the great players with great amplified tone who read and post on this list would add to the above suggestions or even challenge some of the above ideas. We might begin to compile a crowd sourced reference for developing good amped tone and minimize feedback.
I have often thought that one of the subjects under represented at various workshops is this very topic. Part of it may be because of the wide range of acoustic tone and experience managing gear makes this difficult to teach to a group in a hands-on setting. If I recall, Greg made a brief presentation at one of the Hill Country Harmonica workshops that I built on by doing. I missed the first HCH, but went to the last two. Another part of learning how to do it may be that you just have to experiment and learn through experience.
Another under explored workshop topic is how to play harp to a vocal mic in a stand that is EQed for vocals. How closely you approach the mic, whether you are on or slightly off axis (my preference), and how you use your hands to cut high frequencies and alter the sound and volume are all skills to build. If you step in too close you may get feedback or just blow out ears FOH. It is another skill to develop... ----------
Certainly .. playing into a vocal mic well is harder than it looks. I tend to cup too fully and cut off all the sound. Lol.
Sonny boy just makes it all look easy doesn't he?
There is a great video by David Barrett on Tone that goes over alot of the things that you brought up. Including blocking the unused holes with the cheek. That's the first time I heard anyone mention that and it was amazing. Had no idea players were doing that. It's hard to pull off properly ... I need alot more practice with the mic. My standard cup is pretty good and my acoustic tone isn't too shabby... I can drive an amp pretty well. My main issue really is the difference in maneuverability. Playing acoustically your free to move the harp as you wish. Playing with a mic seems more akin to playing in a rack. Very rigid position. Throws me off a bit sometimes.
Practice makes perfect.
I would love to get to one of those big events and see some of the lessons there. Ill have to try to get to SPAH or one of the others this year or next.
I can understand the concept that if you play more louder into a mic, then you don't have to turn it up so much and so it's less prone to feedback. That's definitely true for vocals, and the seems logical.
However, we are often told to play quietly, acoustically for the best amped tone. Even I have found that to get anyway near the good amped sounds I hear on recordings the best recipe is to play gently, then have a hot enough mic and enough gain going on. This is at odds with the statement about, and I think that's just tough. I've concluded that playing loudly with less gain isn't the best thing to do even it if it reduces the potential for feedback.
At this point, someone may say that 'resonant' doesn't mean 'loud' which is where I throw my hands up.
Does cupping reduce feedback? Normally with a vocal mic, handling the mic is a sure way to start feedback. I think that sound can get into the mic from all directions. Maybe shielding it by holding it against your body when not playing helps.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 27, 2017 1:26 PM
I am OK with the contradiction. I invited others to challenge the ideas I put forward. Remember, I rated myself 80% on this topic. I like hearing other ways of approaching this.
I have experienced multiple occasions when a person with weaker thinner tone fought feedback and could not get volume from their amp. Then I played relatively loudly with resonance into the same mic and amp, without changing settings, and was asked to turn down. I thought (and was told by others) that my tone was good, but it was too loud. That doesn't mean that the louder playing was the reason for the good tone. But I do think that compensating for thinner tone by turning mic/gain/volume up too far is asking for feedback.
So far as the "resonant not meaning loud" issue, I don't know how to respond. I do think that you can play quietly with resonance and project good tone. You can also be loud with resonance and project good tone and still not be moving too much air through a harp. Blowing or sucking hard through a harp hurts tone. Playing loudly with resonance does not mean moving lots of air through the harp.
I think that amplified players addressing volume/feedback/tone issues should experiment, and your approach of playing quietly while turned up may be as valid or even more useful than mine, if done properly.
Perhaps I wasn't doing it properly when I was experimenting, but when I played quietly and turned up mic and/or gain I started having feedback problems. ----------
Interesting topic, and I have some thoughts based on my 20 years of amplified playing:
1) Improving my resonance was a key turning point in my development as an amplified player. By resonance, I mean tuning your mouth, tongue, throat, diaphragm, and posture to produce a strong fundamental pitch, which then carries over to the mic and amp to produce a louder and fuller sound.
2) Some mic/amp combinations will have a synergistic effect, resulting in special characteristics, sometimes including better feedback rejection. Try lots of combinations to find the ones you enjoy.
3) Be careful with overuse of techniques like using a very tight cup and blocking off holes with your cheek. While those things are good to use periodically for effect, if you do them all the time, you can end up with a muddy, inarticulate sound. The best amplified players use a balance of thick/fat and thin/reedy tonalities. Check out some videos of William Clarke - huge sound, but often playing with a very open cup.
4) Sometimes turning up the treble can actually reduce feedback. Often what you actually need instead of more overall volume is a sound that cuts through the mix better, which you can achieve via more treble.
5) It's helpful to have an antifeedback device in your arsenal to deal with problematic rooms or unusually loud playing situations.
Doug - yes I can believe there's something around making a better acoustic sound, which then gives a better amped sound and less feedback. I just have a problem with labelling it as resonance or whatever, as it may not help people (or me, more specifically!) achieve it.
We tend to go round in circles with this thing, but if there is an improvement to be had by tuning your cavities to the note (which seems likely) then the result of that should me more volume for less air. Maybe the advice to play quietly is actually that, rather than actually quietly.
A while ago on MBH we had a bit of a compare about acoustic volume, timbre etc. From the samples that were posted it was very clear that the 'cavity tuning' going on that gave greater overall volume was about increasing the volume of overtones, not the fundamental note. I.e. a change in timbre.
Maybe this is what is the trick - changing the timbre i.e. the frequency mix, consciously or unconsciously. That certainly ought to have an effect on feedback. You are your own EQ pedal.
Interestingly, increasing the harmonics gives a sharper timbre - which from observation seems to cut through the mix better (as in harpoon_man's advice above) so this would be consistent. With this 'better' timbre, you don't have to turn up so much. Plausible?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 27, 2017 11:44 PM
I call it resonance because that is what others have called it in posts, in workshops, and videos. My understanding is that we should not play hard with lots of air, but with a fullness of sound. Talking about it is confusing.
The Steve Baker video on "Tone" really made an impression on me:
I can't say for sure how to develop tone or resonance to create a full sound without a lot of wind, but I know that after playing gigs through a vocal mic primarily for some time (cupped sometimes and also uncupped on a stand) my amplified sound improved a lot.
As to fundamental or overtone frequencies, I don't know. With me it seems to have been unconscious improvements in my sound after lots of playing, not a specific course of study. Some of this stuff is hard to pin down in words.
I agree with posts from MindTheGap and harpoon_man about treble being a necessary component with amplified harp. When I use a tube amp I start setup with treble cut and bass slightly past mid, but then I bring the treble up until it cuts with a full range, but not real shrill. That seems to help get the harp across through a mix.
I believe in dynamics of volume, altering speed of playing and of song tempos, altering note density, leaving spaces, tight vs. loose cup, switching to PA from amp periodically, using effects through technique or pedals to alter the sound, etc. Variety is how you keep people listening. If you play consistently in one way, people will begin to turn their attention to other things.
In my opinion there are a lot of things to try out and experiment with to improve amplified playing and manage volume and feedback, but the key is in doing the exploration for yourself, over and over. I spent a lot of time (when no one was home!) just messing with various mics, amps, and speakers set up in different parts of my room, playing really loudly to improve mic handling.
I vary my cup, but don't do the blocking holes thing that Greg Heumann and others advocate. Too much hassle. Maybe that limits my depth of sound, and if I did it I could rate myself at 85%??? ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 28, 2017 7:14 AM
When I talk about playing "loud" without alot of air .... I use the term "back pressure" to describe what's going on. What I mean is ... when you open your throat and get that suction going from your diaphragm. Your not sucking by using your lungs and throat muscles. But instead the diaphragm stretches and creates this air column and you can feel the back pressure on the harp. It's not really increased air through the harp, but rather this pressure on the reeds that causes them to bend harder. This may be totally inaccurate, but its what I feel and what I envision happening anyways.
As far as resonance... I believe it's all about the overtones. It really shows up if you play a cord because you have the overtones of all the notes. It actually sounds like you have added extra holes. If you play the 123 chord with a closed throat, closed mouth, and your tongue pushed upfront ... you get a very high pitch thin sound. Then open your throat, drop your jaw, get the harp deeper in your mouth, etc .... the chord comes alive. And there are sounds there that feel like you must have added a note or two. It seems impossible that these could be the same 3 holes making this sound. That's everything resonating as it should. Atleast that is my idea of what resonance is.
With a good cup on the mic I can actually feel the suction in my hands when I hit a good held 2 draw. I believe that's how you properly drive the mic to get the extra volume Doug is talking about. The tight cup along with the wide open resonant notes. That air column that goes unaffected from the harp all the way to your gut.
Quiet playing has its own unique sound which is very nice. However I agree with Doug... that to get that big fat tone you can't really play softly. Atleast not that softly. Yet (as Doug mentions) that doesn't mean pulling a ton of air through the harp. Just means kicking in that back pressure I'm talking about. Playing softly surely adds to your dynamic range and you can definitely get good tone while playing softly. But if your looking for that certain sound ... it just can be had without a little umph. Atleast I can't do it.
To harpoon man's 2nd point.... this is definitely true. I've had quite a few mics for a while now, but always had little 5 watt amps. And I noticed how some mics certainly agree with each amp more than others. However until I started playing through bigger amps I really didn't grasp just how important this was.
Alot of good points made here ... I think the end result is ... I need more practice.. lol. It's really nice to have a proper amp that just agrees with having a mic plugged into it. A fussy amp is just a pain in the butt. I was hoping someone knew the magic answer of how ti manage a fussy amp with simple mic technique, but I knew it was to good to be true. 8^/
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 28, 2017 8:26 AM
Brian Purdy has a couple of tutorials on the harpgear.com website; Acoustic Tone and Amplified Tone. He suggests a method of cupping where you place a hand on each side of your mouth and cup them as if you're going to drink water out of them (there are photos); this works well for me. As Greg Heumann says, different shaped faces may require different styles of cupping.
