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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Tweaking Suzuki Manji
Tweaking Suzuki Manji
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Rush Thompkins
7 posts
Dec 20, 2017
1:51 AM
Hi everyone,

I recently purchased a set of 7 Suzuki Manji M-20's (G,A,Bb,C,D,E,F) after much searching for the best harp on the affordable market. I'd been persuaded by Jason Ricci's videos and many others that it was the right harp for me and despite the naysayers, I was confident. Turned out all the naysayers were right. Only the F responds >almost< as well as my old Special 20's did. I have a kind of nueropathy so my hands aren't so good which is why I wanted harps I wouldn't have to tweak. That being said I'm now 350 bucks lighter with a case full of harps that I can hear my breath through as much as the bent 3 hole draw. I was wondering if anyone else had had similar experiences and knew any particularly good tweaks I could make to improve my new harps.

Merry Christmas, I hope you're all having a great time
florida-trader
1244 posts
Dec 20, 2017
6:35 AM
Not sure how far you want to go with this or what your Harp Tech skill level is, but the simplest adjustment, which will deliver the most dramatic benefit is to adjust the gaps. A "gap" is defined as the distance between the tip of the reed and the reed plate. If the gaps are too wide, it allows air to escape through the slot without acting on the reed. If you remove the covers, the draw reeds will be right in front of you and you can see the gaps. You can look inside the harp through the slots and see the gaps on the blow plate. You might need some magnification and good lighting but it is not difficult. Use a small probe (a toothpick or a paperclip will work) to gently push the reed so that you narrow the gaps. Make small adjustments and then test for repsonsiveness. Small adjustments then test.

I'm sure you will get lots of other good ideas from others. Just respond with any questions and let us know how far into the weeds you want to go,
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Blue Moon Harmonicas

Last Edited by florida-trader on Dec 21, 2017 5:59 PM
robbert
441 posts
Dec 20, 2017
6:37 AM
Yeah... these are very durable and reliable harps, although they haven’t been my absolute favorites in the past, they are the harps I count on for live performance. However, like most harps, they require gapping to one’s playing preference. I got into them for the same reasons you did...quality, and bang for the buck, but with the understanding that I would adjust them. Look at some videos on gapping. It’s not difficult, just proceed with care and I think you’ll be happy with the results.
Gnarly
2387 posts
Dec 20, 2017
6:38 AM
If you are in the US and bought them from a domestic dealer, you have a warranty.
Call Suzuki at 800-854-1594, I'm at extension 4410.
Piro39
128 posts
Dec 20, 2017
9:05 AM
I don't think it is about gapping, Most likely it is the combs not being flat which I personally have encounted in the past with Manji and Promasters. Changing to after market combs does wonders to these harps along with sanding the draw plates. I recently checked the flatness of Manji combs and there were a lot of air spaces beneath my small metal straight edge which is very straight. These were older combs and hopefully Suzuki has corrected this problem on there Manji and Promaster combs. Not to mention paying a lot of money for a company's defective product and then paying alot of money and effort to correct.
asilve3
157 posts
Dec 20, 2017
10:42 AM
I'm glad you brought this up as I've noticed the same thing! I'll have to work on gapping the low-f I just bought. Maybe next time I'll just spring for the extra bucks and get the crossover.

Piro39 is there any aftermarket comb you recommend?
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AJ Silverberg
www.hearaj.com
1847
4594 posts
Dec 20, 2017
11:05 AM
a flat surface and sandpaper works just fine.
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AppalachiaBlues
104 posts
Dec 20, 2017
12:21 PM
If you're in the US and bought them from a certified Suzuki seller, your best bet is to send them to Gnarly.

If you want to try your hand at tweaking, a little work goes a long way. After completely disassembling the harp:

1. reedplates are sometimes bowed: you can gently/carefully bend them flatter.
2. flat sand the draw plates. this makes a big difference - usually there is a raised ring around the screwholes which was a result of the drilling. These will become shiny once you've flat-sanded them flush with the plate.
3. as Tom suggests - check and adjust all the gaps.
4. lightly flat sand the comb.
5. do not over-tighten on reassembly. get them snug and a bit more, but don't over do it, as that will compress the comb around the screw and create leaks.

These 5 steps I go through with each new Manji I buy. Allow 15-20 minutes per harp. It should make a world of difference.

If you are not confident in your skills to try this... contact Gnarly :-)

Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Dec 20, 2017 12:28 PM
MP
3526 posts
Dec 20, 2017
1:59 PM
Do as Garly suggests or florida-trader. If the later is your choice, luckily for you there are only two cover plate screws. As Tom said, just adjust the gaps a bit. If still leaky then you can go messing w/ sanding and stuff. BUT, don'do anything if you don't want to void the warranty.
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asilve3
159 posts
Dec 20, 2017
2:48 PM
To clarify, when ya'll are talking about flat sanding are you referring to laying a piece of sandpaper on a flat surface and rubbing the comb onto of it? Also, what grit/grits do you recommend?
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AJ Silverberg
www.hearaj.com
Gnarly
2389 posts
Dec 20, 2017
4:08 PM
I am about to flat sand the draw plate.
I use 2500 usually, sometimes start with a larger grit and then finish off with a finer grit.
BTW, Winslow says the first thing he does when he gets a harp is take it apart and put it back together again.

Edit: I just used 400, and then 2500.
We are next door to a marble and granite warehouse, free samples--

Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 20, 2017 4:13 PM
Rush Thompkins
8 posts
Dec 20, 2017
8:45 PM
Thanks everybody, I'll look into all this stuff soon and let you know about the results, well all that I can since I live in Australia

Last Edited by Rush Thompkins on Dec 21, 2017 1:04 AM
AppalachiaBlues
109 posts
Dec 21, 2017
8:32 AM
ridge
720 posts
Dec 21, 2017
8:37 AM
+1 on Gnarly's post about just taking it apart and re-assembling. Take care to seat the screws before driving them back in and don't over tighten; don't force anything.

Many times you'll find a screw may be bound up or binds up and ends up putting pressure on the reed plate pushing things apart instead of pulling them tightly together. This can create artificial air leaks in an otherwise problem free harmonica.

I find often times I'll have a harmonica that plays better with fewer screws in it simply because one or two won't thread in nice. For instance, I have Special 20s with 4 reed plate screws that play better than when all 7 screws are installed.

As an aside. I initially found Manjis difficult to play compared to Marine Bands, Special 20s and Golden Melody harmonicas. The reeds are more substantial and there is definitely a bit of an adjustment personally to get used to them! I love my Low F and A Manji now.
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Ridge's YouTube

Last Edited by ridge on Dec 21, 2017 8:44 AM
Moon Cat
742 posts
Dec 21, 2017
3:15 PM
Yes Ridge will not be today the thread killer! Agrreed on all fronts, The manji is similar to playing a guitar with 12 guage strings as to another guitar with 9's....They take a little more work to shape, adjust, tune etc but when you grab a bend you can really feel it!
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www.mooncat.org
Moon Cat
743 posts
Dec 21, 2017
3:20 PM
I am truly sorry Rush you do not like your Manjis and I take it very seriously and appreciate you trusting my word. I do not support any brand tyhat wishes my help and only play what I promote almost at all times except in sentimental situations... All I can say is keep them Manji's around for a bit and give them a chance they may be the harp for you as they are for me with or without the normal tweaking we do for almost any harp.. I did not care for them initially now it is quite hard to go back to other harps...
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www.mooncat.org
Rush Thompkins
9 posts
Dec 21, 2017
3:36 PM
well folks it seems i was duped, sorry for the confusion i'll just have to make do with counterfeit harps, my guess is that all the unsatisfied suzuki customers did not buy from the suzuki company itself but rather a counterfeit seller. i'll keep trying all the stuff you guys showed me but i think i've found the cause of my problems.

better luck next time i suppose

Last Edited by Rush Thompkins on Dec 21, 2017 3:42 PM
Gnarly
2392 posts
Dec 21, 2017
4:47 PM
Not to borrow trouble, but what makes you think that they are counterfeit? You are in Australia, don't you have warranty support there?
I have no dog in this fight, just curious from a professional perspective.
I'm not like Mooncat in that I have no endorsement situation, but am currently acquiring Manji harps for my performance situations since they fit the Tsunami microphone I am trying to use for harp at gigs--so far, it's been a lot easier to just use the vocal mike!
jbone
2422 posts
Dec 21, 2017
5:02 PM
So to be clear Rush- you got hustled? Your Manji's are counterfeit! If so that's terrible. I do business almost exclusively with Rockin' Ron. He sells genuine items and is competitively priced, and a whiz at shipping.

Re: Manji's- Genuine- I do love the Manji. Early on I didn't need to tweak at all, in recent months I noticed replacement reed plates have needed a bit of work, not all that much.

I admit to being a bit spoiled over the years, I have rarely opened a harp to get it working how I like. In recent months I have kind of surrendered to the necessity of regapping and probably flat sanding as well.

That said, I have used Manji since they became available and they have been my favorite harp ootb over all, and that's over 45 years' messing with harps. Certainly I have other harps since the market provides other options I want to try, and there are some good customizers out there these days as well. So you'd find a custom MB or two, an Eastop or two, a Big River, even a stock Marine Band, but the core of my gigging kit is Suzuki Manjis.
To me every brand and model harp has different qualities. The Manji has been a louder player, more durable and long lived, and replacement reed plates have generally been very good. Since we play acoustic outdoors a lot the Manji has been a great harp to reach a bit further and bring in a few more patrons. Jolene plays her arch top guitar loud as well so Manji is a good match.

Manji does take a bit of getting used to but for me definitely worth it. Every different harp I've bought has required adjusting my method and lately even doing some tweaking. Par for the course these days.

I hope you take another shot at Manji.


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florida-trader
1246 posts
Dec 22, 2017
9:55 AM
I’m sorry. I must have missed something. I can’t seem to connect the dots here. How has the subject of counterfeit Manjis become part of this conversation?

For starters, regardless of which brand or model you are talking about, some OOTB harps don’t play as well as others. Hohner, Suzuki, Seydel – it doesn’t matter. Nobody is immune from this.

Rush Thompkins – you are new to this forum, so you are probably not aware that this is a subject that is frequently discussed here on MBH. Like any community, we want it to grow and we welcome new members. This inevitably leads to the same questions being asked over and over as new members join. On this particular subject, you have come to the right place because there are a lot of very knowledgeable members of this forum and, in my opinion, the quality of the information you will get here is much higher than you might get elsewhere. There are a lot of experienced Harp Techs and some World Class Players on this forum.

In addition, by virtue of your question, it is apparent that you don’t have a lot of experience working on harps. You don’t mention how long you have been playing or what your skills are, but would I be incorrect in assuming that you are more of a beginner than an accomplished player? That’s OK. None of this is intended to be a slight. Please do not interpret this as a personal attack. We all started in the same place and asked the same questions. Fortunately for us all, we now have a place we can go to find answers.

So, to sum up the advice you have been given, you got all the useful basic tips you can ask for which includes:
• Adjust the gaps
• Flat sand the draw plate
• Flat sand the comb or consider installing a custom comb
• Make sure the reed plates are flat
• Don’t over-tighten the screws

In addition, you have heard from Jason Ricci, ridge and Jbone that the phosphor bronze reeds on Manjis are a bit stiffer than brass Hohner reeds so they take a little getting used to. Jason likened them to a 12-gauge guitar string vs. a 9-gauge string. I am not a guitar player, but I can relate to this analogy because I am a clarinet player. Clarinet reeds are available in a variety of “strengths” – from a low of 1 (for beginners who have weak embouchures) to a high of 5, with half steps in between. So, it goes, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, etc. Better players who have stronger embouchures need stronger reeds because they over-compress the softer reeds and make them choke. But I digress.

Bottom line – you’ve gotten some excellent information about how to adjust and improve your Manjis, should you desire to do and if you are adventurous enough to dive into it. And you have been advised that you are not the first to find the Manjis a little more demanding to play. This is also excellent information.

So please explain to me how, given all this useful information, your conclusion is that you have counterfeit harps? What leads you to believe that? I am sorry to be harsh, but that just sounds like a convenient excuse to me. And what if they are counterfeit – which I highly doubt? In the past few years there have been a number of low cost Chinese entrants into the harmonica market. East Top and Kongsheng are two that come to mind. Purists might turn their collective noses up at a Chinese made harps and insist that they do not compare to German or Japanese harps, but there are a lot of very respected players who have given both brands high grades. It means that the quality of the Chinese harps is going up. It has to if they want to be accepted on the world stage. If indeed someone is producing counterfeit Manji reed plates, they would likely come from China, which no longer automatically means that the quality is poor. If the reeds plates are not set up properly, then following the advice that has been given here, even if they were counterfeit reed plates (which I doubt) would yield positive results.


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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Blue Moon Harmonicas
jbone
2424 posts
Dec 22, 2017
11:02 AM
@florida-trader: I took "being duped" to mean our new member had gotten some sort of knockoff product. If that's in error I humbly withdraw that comment.

All else here is spot on.

When I began this adventure many years ago I never gave a thought to the need for working on the instrument. My attitude was, if I blew out a reed I would just get a new harp since reed plates were not available at the time. I blew up a lot of reeds and tossed a lot of harps for years.
Even after the beginning of the whole customizing thing- which was kind of pricey for me back then- I still insisted on finding the "perfect harp". Which at least for me doesn't exist. This is because my playing style has changed a lot over many years. What was once good or great I have left behind in my search.
Recently I have had something of an epiphany about this.
There are a lot of folks out there who make aftermarket combs and do several levels of work to improve performance on harmonicas. This and my own adventures have pointed out a necessity to me, that if I want a harp to perform like I want, I have to take responsibility and be willing and able to do some basic tasks to insure that it will satisfy my needs.
Along with that I am also interested in the new brands and models which come out every so often.
I still like Manji the best but I've begun to try out some harps I had left behind years ago. And some new kids on the block. What I've discovered so far is, a harp can be ok, or pretty good ootb, but once it's adjusted a bit to my style, it becomes very good.

@Rush: You invested in some quality harps if indeed you got true Suzuki Manji's. If you have not spent some time learning their unique playing needs- and begun to fit your style to getting the most out of them- I suggest you keep working with them.
I think once you get used to these harps you will grow to love them. There are also as mentioned a lot of resources right here to help you along in your journey.

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florida-trader
1247 posts
Dec 22, 2017
11:18 AM
Jbone - you know me. I'm a straight shooter.

I am still having difficulty connecting the dots. When someone says they were duped, that insinuates they were misled. In the context of this thread, that means our new friend Rush has the impression that either A) real Manjis are not good harps, therefore the recommendation to buy them was a disservice: or B) Manjis are good harps but somehow, he got tricked into buying fake Manjis. I don’t know.

You hit the nail on the head when you said, “…..if I want a harp to perform like I want, I have to take responsibility and be willing and able to do some basic tasks to insure that it will satisfy my needs.” That about sums it up for me.

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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Blue Moon Harmonicas
jbone
2425 posts
Dec 22, 2017
11:34 AM
@florida-trader: As stated I may have assumed something. I have not to date heard of counterfeit Manji's but I think some folks out there have tried to pass off used items as new. Either way, it I spent serious $$ on a product it would not be easy to eat. I'd have to do all I could to salvage what I could ie tweaking etc.
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the_happy_honker
282 posts
Dec 22, 2017
3:25 PM
I'm guessing he was told his harps were counterfeit when turned to Suzuki for service under warrantee.

The counterfeit issue has been raised by Suzuki before.
Suzuki harps sell for a good deal less in Japan. They probably have to be price-competitive with Tombo.

So somebody gets ahold of some discounted harps and sells them outside the country. That is a bit of a headache for Suzuki, because it undercuts their sales abroad and because it makes for disgruntled customers when they learn they have no warrantee rights.
BeePee
46 posts
Dec 26, 2017
12:17 AM
As Tom says, the counterfeit suggestion is a red herring. The issues Rush describes are pretty accurate for Manjis: it's true they are not as responsive as Hohners out of the box. However Suzuki's rugged phosphor bronze reeds give great long-term reliability, so it's worth taking the steps that others have described to make the harps play better.

One negative factor with Suzuki reeds that has been pointed out to me by both Richard Sleigh and Joel Andersson, harp techs I respect, is that they sit too high on the reedplate. That gives a larger gap at the root of the reed which contributes to air loss even if you do all the other mods mentioned above. They both say they have to do extra bending of the base of the reed into the slot and reshaping for Suzuki reeds compared to Hohner.

Richard asked me to pass this on to Suzuki when I worked for them, along with a recommendation to fix it in the factory - not sure if it's been acted on. But one thing about Suzuki I noticed is that they are constantly making small improvements to their existing models. So if they haven't done it yet, perhaps it will happen in time.

Last Edited by BeePee on Dec 26, 2017 12:18 AM
Bike&Harp
149 posts
Dec 26, 2017
2:16 AM
Counterfeit Manji's? Never heard of it. Can't imagine it would be worth anyone's time and effort to even set up a business or system to do that. No i believe what the other guys say that Manji's are harder to play and that's that. But they reward you in other ways. For instance to me the tone is way better than a SP20 which i also use.

Interesting the reed sitting higher on the reedplate at the root of the reed. I've found that Manji's don't overblow as well as the SP20 does and think this might be one of the if not the reason for it. Tinus on his site stresses that it's important to get the reed diving into the slot at the root end.
Killa_Hertz
2428 posts
Dec 26, 2017
8:19 PM
In my opinion there isn't an ootb harp out there that doesn't need SOMETHING to play right. Barely any of them are in tune or gapped tight enough for my taste. Some are ofcourse better than others. Of the top models (1847, manji, crossover, etc.) I believe the Manji needs the most work to play well.



The manji seems to require reshaping the reeds (and ofcourse gapping) to really play right. Ootb the reeds respond quite poorly and inconsistent in my experience. I'm judging this by the 7 or 8 manjis I've purchased (all separately) Once you get the reeds setup right and a few other things ironed out, it's really a fine playing harp.

The majority of my reedplates were also warped and the stock combs are pretty unflat. I find they also don't hold tune for squat. I retuned a few of mine to 19 limit and Seydel tuning. Didn't hold very long until the octaves were beating again.

All in all even thought it's a good sounding and playing harp once it's all setup. . I think it's just too much damn work to get them to play right. I do alot of this work to most of my harps eventually, but to HAVE TO do it just to be satisfied with the basic playing .... it's just annoyimg.

If you want a Harp that you don't have to do much to ... the crossover is your harp.
I prefer Seydel harps myself, but .... the crossover is a damn fine harp and remarkably well setup ootb in my experience.

Since you can't do the work yourself, maybe your best bet is to sell the set of used manjis (or atleast a few of them) and try a crossover. However I suggest trying just one before buying a set. As you have experienced, one person's opinion doesn't suit everyone.
I'm sure there are people who completely disagree with everything I've said ... lol
Harps are very subjective... there are alot of variables to consider.

Another option is to see if you can get someone to do a basic setup on the Manjis for you.

Good Luck ... hope it all works out for you.
jbone
2429 posts
Dec 26, 2017
9:31 PM
Perhaps all these years I've just been gullible or something. Every different brand and style I've ever bought has played differently than others. For over half of my 45 years messing with playing harps, I just adapted my own self to the instrument. Granted some just didn't work out, like Huangs in the early 90's, Big Rivers when they became an MS harp, etc. But over all the harps I chose to stick with it was mostly a question of learning what the best attack was to get the most out of them.

Also true, I tossed a of of harps after killing a reed and either not even trying to retune, or failing to get much more use out of that harp. My adventures with making harps tighter pretty much ended some years ago. However I am reconsidering at this point.

One reason I chose Manji- among others- was replacement reed plates. They also impressed me with their tone and volume ootb. To begin realizing that I need to take a more active role in getting them tighter etc. has been a sort of awakening. I had hoped to find the "perfect harp" along the way. I had high hopes for the Harrison product some years ago and paid dearly for my presumption.

If we look at guitars, trumpets, and a lot of other instruments, to get what one wants, often the instrument needs some sort of attention even when new. Something as simple as checking the tightness of all the screws initially can mean a lot. I have seen this over and over with music partners and their guitars etc. So if I want my harps gapped to my preference I guess it's up to me unless I want to work closely with a customizer. Flat sanding plates and combs I imagine I can do and maybe even a bit of retuning here or there. Being on a budget will prevent me from having much done outside my own kitchen counter I also expect.

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Killa_Hertz
2430 posts
Dec 27, 2017
5:28 AM
J bone I think alot of seasoned players think as you do. Conform to the harp. Because that's just what you had to do ... there wasn't a school of thought that said "open it up and make it better." Atleast not a wide spread school of thought.

Now we are in a post Joe Filisko / Richard Sleigh Era... lol. And post Adam Gussow Era aswell. There's just so much info out there that the game has changed, it seems.

I think it really depends what you expect out of your harp, but once you've learned on nicely setup harps ... it's hard to accept anything else. It's not that they don't play ootb, but rather why play something that's not performing the way it could.

In my opinion Richard Sleighs Hot Rod Videos are worth their weight in gold. They take all the guess work out by clearly telling / showing you what to do. From tuning to embossing ... everything you need to know. Shortens the learning curve tremendously.

Surely someone playing as long as you has a few bum harps around to practice on. It really doesn't take any special tools to setup the reeds. Simple engraver and some sanding wands or files for tuning and some modified feeler Guages for reed tools and your set. After you get through a few harps you'll be off and running. Nothing of professional quality like Joe Spiers, but damn good enough for a regular player like me.

Sorry I know this is off topic .. just wanted to give you some positive reinforcement to push ahead with trying your hand at some "tweaking".

When your harps do exactly what you ask them to... your free to let your mind go and just improvise. Instead of thinking "oh yeah, this harp has a bum 3 draw ... gotta hit it harder. " know what I mean?

Anyhow check out those Hotrod videos. For about the price of a harp, they are a steal.

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 27, 2017 5:28 AM
dougharps
1661 posts
Dec 27, 2017
10:23 AM
Richard Sleigh taught customization at a couple workshops I have attended. He is really good at setting up harps and teaching how to do it. He is a great player and performer, too.

I considered getting the DVD set, but I know my limited patience would be an issue. I adjust gaps on any new harp and occasionally will mess with a reed profile if there is a problem, but I just don't have the patience to spend that much time setting up one harp, embossing, and tuning every reed. I just try to improve problems, and my playing approach doesn't demand that high level of adjustment.

I DO like my one Joe Spiers C MBD harp bought at SPAH, though! It is the only harp I own that will OB the 4, 5, and 6 easily and it let me get the 7OD. I don't really play that way, but I viewed buying it as a way to learn new techniques. I don't have any of Joe Filisko's or Richard Sleigh's harps. My Deak Harps are good and can get OBs, but are not really set up for that purpose.

I have not had major issues with any Manji since I learned that they require a different attack on bends in the first octave. I like Jason's comparison to playing a guitar with heavier strings. All I do with a Manji is gap and occasionally take apart and reassemble, as with any brand and model of harp.

These days I can switch between Manjis, SP20s, Deak MBs, MBDs, Crossovers, Seydel Session Steels, 1843s, EastTops, Delta Frosts, etc. with little difficulty. Muscle memory built by repetition.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 27, 2017 10:24 AM


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