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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
first chromatic-what key?
first chromatic-what key?
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pimike
5 posts
Oct 26, 2017
12:00 PM
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i assume that you can play any key on any chromatic, i also assume that the one hole is tuned to the key of the harp, and i assume that most players start with a "C" for some reason. assuming once again that all this is true, what would be a good, tight, inexpensive, harp to start with. your thoughts and interjections are greatly appreciated. thanks, mike
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bluemoose
1160 posts
Oct 26, 2017
12:41 PM
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Hi Mike, not sure if you can use chromatic and inexpensive in the same post :)
If you are going to get a chromatic I don't think it's worth cutting corners. You will regret it and it will hold you back. Better to think about 12 or 16 hole.
12 holes (3 octaves) are cheaper but you will find yourself REALLY wanting that bottom octave you did not pay for.
So...save up, sell a bunch of other stuff you don't use or need and get a quality instrument. (Remember, trumpets, saxes, trombones, guitars are hundreds of $$. You deserve it too)
bluemoose
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LSB
279 posts
Oct 26, 2017
1:34 PM
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Most common chromatic for blues players would be a C chromatic played in 3rd position key of D.
As Bluemoose says, 12, or 16 holes for an extra octave on the low end. But the big 16 holers can be a little expensive and unwieldy to start with.
The Hohner 270 deluxe would be the most traditional choice with regards to tone and looks.
Less expensive, more comfortable and higher quality would be a Suzuki SCX-48, also a 12 holer.
Less expensive still, would be an Eastop chromatic, which seem to be getting pretty good reviews over on slidemiester.com. Apparently not quite up to the quality of the Suzukis, but much better than previous chomatics in the lower price range. Or at least that's what I've read.
I have the 270 deluxe and the SCX-48. Both are very good. Considering the price difference between them, and the better comfort and quality of the Suzuki, thats what I'd recommend. Having said that, I play my 270 deluxe more, for the straight up traditional blues tone and vibe, and I accept it's downsides, grudgingly.
Last Edited by LSB on Oct 26, 2017 1:35 PM
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slaphappy
328 posts
Oct 26, 2017
2:39 PM
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can't go wrong with a CX12 (key of C)
I did end up getting a 16 hole (280C) because I missed the lower octave as mentioned above but I still like the CX12 a lot, it's very comfortable to play.
I hope to try some other brands someday..
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
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Harmonica is Life!
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Gnarly
2328 posts
Oct 26, 2017
3:04 PM
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Here ya go--A lightly used 260!
$50 delivered--it's in G, but chromatics usually start on middle C, that's too high!
I work for Suzuki, you can get one of those but they are not $50 . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Oct 26, 2017 3:07 PM
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LSB
280 posts
Oct 26, 2017
4:28 PM
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Yeah, nothing wrong with the CX-12, although they are different in terms of looks, feel and tone.
People seem to either love or hate the mouthpiece on the CX-12. I'm a hater, but I have a CX-12 Jazz And I find that very comfortable.Ttoo bad the Jazz is stupid expensive.
Regarding buying used..... man, that's risky with a chromatic: Cracked and/or warped combs are potential issues along with bad or missing windsavers and shot reeds. There are surely some deals to be found out there, but there's also a lot more potential for costly and time consuming repairs on chromatics than you have with used diatonics. Although if you get one referbished at a decent price, from some one reputable, that can be a safe way to save money.
Gnarly, is the chromatic you linked to a harp you worked on?
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Gnarly
2329 posts
Oct 26, 2017
4:38 PM
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It is not--but I suspect it is pretty clean.
And they don't make 260s anymore.
And it's cheap!
Edit:
Aaand--it's no longer for sale, I am going to turn it into an Orchestra tuned chrom--and maybe Bebop it, let's see what happens.
It's not for me, but I might wind up playing it if I like it. The proof of the pudding . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Oct 26, 2017 4:43 PM
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SuperBee
5058 posts
Oct 26, 2017
4:59 PM
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All my chromatics are 2ndhand.
The cx12 was advertised as ‘never played above hole 5, and rarely played at all’.
Despite that, it could use a tune up. It was very clean though and I paid $150 for it.
I paid $180 for my first 270, advertised as ‘unwanted gift, never played’.
I fitted a power comb to it, after I carelessly left it on a table near a sunny window and cracked the original comb. Apart from that, I have only ever had to re-glue 1 windsaver.
My prewar 270 cost $30 and I did have to discard comb and windsavers on that one. Otherwise though, after the mandatory clean up and refit with new comb, it’s a good harp.
I was recently gifted a very clean prewar 260. Tuned like a diatonic. This is so clean, I’m sure it’s been restored sometime in the last decade or so and then left unplayed. It’s missing a nut for one cover plate bolt and the mouthpiece is not straight. It has leather windsavers but they must be recently installed. Only one is curled, and they look quite fresh.
I think if you want to play chromatics you have to be prepared to get fairly hands-on with maintenance. There’s not really much to it once you get down with it.
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jbone
2377 posts
Oct 26, 2017
5:01 PM
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I have bought one 8 hole and quickly wished for a 12. All those I've bought since have been 12 and I think maybe 16 would have been a better choice. There are many more accomplished chromatic players than me out there.
My first breakthrough- 3rd position- came on a "cheap" Hohner Chrometta 12. It' a very easy to play model but likely won't last long. Mine did not.
I have 2 C's, plus a C Baritone and a G. Different brands and models. All have pluses and minuses. My favorite is a Suzuki SCX-12.
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LSB
281 posts
Oct 26, 2017
5:24 PM
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Just can't help yourself, can you Gnarly? Lol.
SuperBee, I agree, there are definitely used deals to be had out there if you have the time to keep an eye out for potential gems and you don't mind rolling the dice. I got my CX-12 Jazz in like new condition for a great price, but it took me 6 months of searching.
Anyway, I just think used is a tough way to go for a chromatic first timer to go, but it really just depends on on the OP's priorities for sure.
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Gnarly
2330 posts
Oct 26, 2017
8:50 PM
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@LSB I believe I did just help myself--I will keep the list posted.
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John M G
165 posts
Oct 27, 2017
2:34 AM
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In the mind set, "I ain't gonna die wondering"
I started out with CX 12 in C and while I did like it. I did miss the bottom octave. So then bought a Suzuki Gregoire Maret GM-48. Yep, another 12 hole harp!
So then I bought a Hohner Super 64X and love it.
I converted converted the "C" CX-12 with a new set of reed plates to D. converted the "C" GM 48 to a G and bought a Bb and F CX-12. So I'm pretty much set for Chromatics for a while!
I really like the CX-12. Hope that helps.
If you are looking to buy a used harp I have a Seydel DeLuxe Acrylic Comb Chromatic in a low D for sale. It's a very low time harmonica and presents like new. US $100 and I'll go 50/50 with the airmail.
Cheers John
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6SN7
743 posts
Oct 27, 2017
6:06 AM
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Buy a quality chromatic, not a used one. Hohner CX12 or Suzuki SCX48 are great choices. The key of C is an essential buy. I also bought one in the key of Bb which I use more at gigs as the band more readily plays tunes in C or Cm than in D or Dm. I ruin my first chromatic because I played to loud And didn’t know what I was doing. Good luck
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Oct 27, 2017 6:07 AM
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dougharps
1601 posts
Oct 27, 2017
7:34 AM
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Although I usually play 12 hole Hering chromatics in 8 different keys (no longer available) as well as still using 270s, I do have a 16 hole Hering I like OK. Having 16 holes gives you more room for octave playing.
As a first chromatic I would recommend a 12 hole in C. There is a big difference in playing the bottom octave and top octave on a 16 hole, and your focus should be on the different note layout and slide as opposed to learning to adjust for the big difference in playing those notes.
The other keyed chromatics allow you to play positions in various keys, including the classic blues 3rd position in keys other than Dm. For my purposes I tend to use 3rd, 4th and 1st positions the most as opposed to playing in all keys on one C instrument. For learning chromatic, I would favor a C instrument and 12 holes.
At SPAH I bought a C Caberet from Danny G. for $100. It is a more air tight instrument than my 270s and plays well on all holes. It is the closest thing to a quality bargain chromatic that I have encountered since I first bought Herings from Farrell's. They were a bargain in the '90s relative to 270s, and had replaceable reed plate/ comb "Combos". The Caberet requires less air than either my leaky 270s with the flat slides and even the Herings, though the Herings do seem louder than the Caberet.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 27, 2017 7:42 AM
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pimike
6 posts
Oct 27, 2017
7:53 AM
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thanks to everyone for great info. Gnarly, i think i met you out at the spring harp fest in the suzuki booth. i am a little confused as to what key i need. being a chromatic scale, can't you play any key with say a "C" for example? are they played like a diatonic with a harp a 4th above the band key in 2nd pos. and a 2nd below in 3rd pos. is third pos. played with the 1, 4, 8, and i assume the 12 and 16 holes as the tonic? thanks again guys! there is so many great harp guys on this fourm and i greatly appreciate you all. mike
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pimike
7 posts
Oct 27, 2017
8:11 AM
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also, in just reading dougharps post, it sounds like a 12 hole is a different animal then a 16 hole and the approach to playing it is as different as is its versatility. much to learn about these critters. it sounds like a 12 holer in the key of "C" is good for someone who's never blown a breath into one.
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dougharps
1602 posts
Oct 27, 2017
8:25 AM
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Yes, you can play in all keys on any one key of chromatic, because it is a fully chromatic instrument. For most players who rely on chromatic for most of their music, C is the usual choice for that purpose. That is why I recommended C as a first chromatic. Also, chromatic harmonica instruction is usually based on a C instrument.
However, on a C chromatic in some keys the slide use and breath changes needed will be awkward, though possible. Additionally, chords on the instrument are more accessible in some keys and useless in others if you use just one instrument for all keys.
The most typical blues use of chromatic is 3rd position D or Dm blues on a C instrument, with huge nasty chords and octaves. If you use just a C instrument those chords will only be available in D and in Eb (button pushed in). Other keys of chromatic allow you to play this style in other keys. Blues chromatic players usually play in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th position, with 3rd being the most frequent.
Chromatic harmonica players playing other than blues music usually stick to a C and some add one other key such as A or B, in order to play sharp keys more fluidly.
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Doug S.
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WinslowYerxa
1464 posts
Oct 27, 2017
9:34 AM
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^^^ Everything Dougharps said.
I'd like to clarify that the 16-hole chromatic isn't that different in most ways. It just has an extra octave added at the bottom, with the same note layout that repeats in every octave on the chromatic.
That said, many players seem to have trouble getting those low notes to sound well, or just seem to have no use for them (personally I love them and do use them). Also, just the fact that it has more holes can make the 16-holer seem endless and easy to get lost in and overwhelmed. Hence the advice - which I also often give - to start with the more manageable 12-holer.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
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timeistight
2234 posts
Oct 27, 2017
10:08 AM
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Something else to keep in mind is that, unlike in the range of 10-Hole harps, the 12-Hole C chromatic is the highest key. That means that you can go down to D or Eb harmonica and get most of those juicy low notes without springing for a 16-Hole harp.
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Gnarly
2331 posts
Oct 27, 2017
3:05 PM
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It's nice to have keyed chromatics, but I am trying to memorize the layout, so am sticking to C for now.
But the standard 12 hole only goes down to C4, that is Middle C, too high to start, so a chromatic in G starts you you 5 notes lower, at G3, so I like that, let's call it Violin tuning--on any size, 8,10,12,14,16.
So assuming you use the easiest patterns on the chrom to play in common keys, playing on a G gives you a sharp to start--so it should be OK to play along with guitarists.
Many of the easier keys on chrom are in flats.
As far as used, sometimes you get lucky.
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WinslowYerxa
1465 posts
Oct 28, 2017
8:11 AM
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I use a chromatic in B as one way to play sharp keys such as D, A, E, and even G.
The B Major scale has 5 sharps, more than the other sharp keys except F#. So using a B chrom to play in those keys makes it like playing in flat keys on a C, smoothing out the scale with fewer breath changes and making neighboring-note ornaments and slide ornaments more plentiful.
Here's a video clip where I used a B chromatic to play a song in G. I'm playing the second harmonica part, which not only harmonizes with the first but also plays the horn-like fills that dip down a semitone and then back up from chord=note splits:
All About that Bass, by Tin Sandwich
The group is Tin Sandwich. L-R, Jamie Coventry, melody, Deron Cavaletti, chord, Scot Velardo, bass. I'm guesting on the far right playing second chromatic.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
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hvyj
3494 posts
Oct 28, 2017
12:52 PM
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16 hole chromes can be a little awkward to handle. 14 hole chroms are pretty interesting besides being more ergonomic.
The root note of the key on a 14 hole chrom is the blow note of the second and third holes. The first hole blow is the fiifth, first hole draw is the sixth and second hole draw is the seventh (or G, A and B in the key of C). This may seem awkward, but having the 5th, 6th and 7th below the root is very practical. You don't drop off the end of the harp trying to play a melody that drops below the root and you have frequently used pick up notes below the root. And you have a couple of cool sounding low notes without having to deal with the unwieldyness of a 16 hole instrument.
I'm not an accomplished chrom player by any means but I do like my Suzuki SCX 56. 14 hole chroms are really useful once you understand what they are designed to do.
Used to have a Tenor CX12 in the key of C which sounded pretty cool. Until one day the comb broke. Didn't drop it or anything. It just cracked and broke. Typical Hohner nonexistent quality control.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 28, 2017 1:00 PM
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Gnarly
2332 posts
Oct 31, 2017
5:54 PM
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Hey, I'm back--yeah, I got lucky, the 260 is in good shape. I cleaned and lubed the slide package, the mouthpiece is less painful than any 260/270 I have ever played (not my favorite)--now I have to decide whether to retune it or pass it along to someone else--or both, this would make a great Orchestra 10 hole.
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Flbl
27 posts
Nov 01, 2017
8:08 AM
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Pimike, I'm real new to chromatics myself, but I can tell you why i bought the harps I bought,
both Suzuki SCX models, all the diatonics I'v got from them have been good OTB, so I thought I'd play it safe. Started with a 16 hole in C, and then a 12 hole in G, very happy with both.
I don't think it was a big deal to jump from a 16 hole to a 12, in some ways a chromatic is easier than a diatonic because the notes repeat every 4 holes, at least with a 16 and a 12, if you learn holes 1,2,3,4 on a 12 hole, or 5,6,7,8 on a 16, then you have learned the whole harp as ever 4 holes are the same just higher or lower I don't know about other brands but on an SCX64 the holes 5 thru 16 are marked 1 thru 12, same as a 12 hole, but for your first buy something good quality.
And hey the first one is easy, I haven't bought my third yet and I'm thinking about what my fifth ones going to be.
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Gnarly
2333 posts
Nov 01, 2017
1:51 PM
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SCX is a great value--and comes with one year warranty.
I certainly can't argue about that.
Too bad we don't make 10 hole harps, oh well--we don't make 12 hole diatonics either!
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MP
3481 posts
Nov 02, 2017
7:52 PM
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Gnarly! They don't make 260s anymore! I had one in G I
traded. Well, it was a good trade to a good friend.
Cool little harp w/ the faux alligator case and that wax paper Hohner used to include w/ chros.
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Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
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Last Edited by MP on Nov 02, 2017 7:53 PM
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Gnarly
2335 posts
Nov 04, 2017
11:44 PM
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Update: Today a friend contacted me with tickets to see Chris Thile perform the Prairie Home Companion show (live radio!) with his old band, Nickel Creek. His wife works for the local public radio station (my friend, not Chris), and she plays harmonica (I previously gave her a set of 7 MBs I had purchased to practice my customization skills, as a coincidence it was because she gave me two ticket to see Chris do a solo in La Jolla at Sherwood Hall) but I don't think she plays chrom--so I gave it to her, and plan to provide a free lesson to get her started.
So I found it a good home--the last thing I need is another harmonica (so why did you buy one Gary--"A little voice told me to . . .") !
Here's the website for the show, the performance we attended will be broadcast again tomorrow--no harmonica, tho . . .
https://www.prairiehome.org/
Last Edited by Gnarly on Nov 05, 2017 12:14 AM
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