ME.HarpDoc
270 posts
Oct 05, 2017
9:43 AM
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I will frequently hear a song on the radio and try to play along with fills an/or solo on harp. Since there's no pause button, i need to determine the key quickly so i can choose which harp to use. I came to rely on an app on my iPhone called KeyDetect which usually gave me the correct song key.
However this app is no longer compatible with the upgraded operating system so I'm looking for a similar app that will quickly hear the song being played and determine the key. So far i've only come across one app called What Key but it doesn't have great reviews.
Any recommendations?
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agarner
2 posts
Oct 05, 2017
10:12 AM
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Just grab a harp and draw the 2 hole. See if it's higher or lower, adjust as needed. This is assuming you are playing in second position. Otherwise, use the tonic note for a start in any position.
I think this would take less time than using an app, and develops your ear.
Last Edited by agarner on Oct 05, 2017 10:14 AM
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WinslowYerxa
1449 posts
Oct 05, 2017
10:16 AM
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When you find that app, start trying to guess the key before you use the app.
After awhile you'll start to hear what it hears - that center of tonal gravity that's like the center of the solar system for that song.
I can usually hear the tonal center, and hum it. And I can pick up a harp and play a note to check what note that is. But how I do it is not something I can distill into a simple tip or trick - wish I could.
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STME58
2028 posts
Oct 05, 2017
11:59 AM
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I use a tuner. Once I have heard enough of the song to get a feel for it, I sing the tonic into the tuner and the tuner reports the key. If I don't have a tuner handy, I use the method Winslow described.
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nacoran
9630 posts
Oct 05, 2017
11:59 AM
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Arrange your harps according to the circle of fifths. If you grab a harp and it sounds terrible, jump to the other side of the circle. If it sounds okay, but not great, just move one space each way.
Keys next to each other on the circle have most of the same notes, so it's a really fast way to id the key.
Also, it won't work on the radio, but there is a field in the metadata for song keys if you are playing stuff on your computer. No one ever fills it in by default, and sometimes the column is hidden, but for instance, in Windows Media Player, you can add the column and every time you figure out the key of a song you can add the data and it will save it for you. You can even sort songs by key once the data is in there.
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Nate
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Andrew
1689 posts
Oct 05, 2017
12:06 PM
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Buddha used to recommend playing anything you heard on the first harp that came out of your pocket, for random position practice. I don't know if that was with harps that were fully customised or with harps that just had basic overblow and overdraw gapping.
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Andrew.
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1847
4478 posts
Oct 05, 2017
1:45 PM
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the secret is to sing the note, the more you do this the easier it gets. it is much easier on other instruments like guitar or piano. for instance, micro recommended the song... two tickets to paradise.....
i have a guitar hanging on the wall, i sang the note walked over to the guitar sang the note hmm that sounds like an A.. hit the A string voilà.
i promise you you will be surprised how well this works.
try it with that song. grab a d harp sing the note, then play 2 draw.
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LevelUp
40 posts
Oct 05, 2017
6:56 PM
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I've been in music for 20 years.
I can't do it just from the sound, have to have an external reference. Andrew said learn to sing the tonic, that's great advice. I'd also recommend some ear training on intervals. Lots of online resources for this that are very effective if you practice with them.
I cannot overstate the value of doing so.
Next, grab a C harp. Play a c. Then sing the tonic. Then sing the C. Figure out the interval between the two. Then figure out what note is that interval away from the C.
Then you know what key the song is in.
That's how I do it if my instinct is wrong (it often is)
So long as you know the notes on a C harp.
Also, Most songs are not in weird keys if you are listening to blues. G, A, Bb, C, D, F
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Raven
103 posts
Oct 06, 2017
8:19 AM
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I use the same method that Nate suggested. Using the circle of fifths will get you there quickly. Guys with perfect pitch will tell you that each key has its own definite personality. I'm trying to learn these personalities since I was not born with perfect pitch. For example, I think of the Key of "A" as the "Happy Key." I have no idea how that compares with how the perfect pitch guys see the key, but it helps me find the right key much faster.
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Andrew
1690 posts
Oct 06, 2017
8:52 AM
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I wouldn't worry about key personalities if I were you - i think their "personality" only comes from ET (or is it JI?) tuning. I can't hear them, although I believe you can learn if you spend enough time listening to a piano.
LevelUp is right - learn how the intervals sound. You shouldn't have to try more than two harps (including the correct one) eventually.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Oct 06, 2017 8:57 AM
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timeistight
2218 posts
Oct 06, 2017
9:40 AM
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I don’t understand the point of the circle of fifths harp arrangement thing. Once you have the tonic in your ear, why not just find it on the harp in your hand?
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PM42
35 posts
Oct 10, 2017
5:27 PM
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Do the keys listed on this website look accurate to folks who know Junior Wells?: http://www.spotontrack.com/album/hoodoo-man-blues/69920 (there are a lot of albums on the website if you search around: I just happened to have chosen Junior for some ear training).
One of the challenges I have when ear training is simply figuring out whether or not I'm correct when I make my determination, so I'm hoping that the keys on that website are correct and it proves a useful resource (of course, assuming they are correct, I'm doing a pretty crap job of ear training, but I'll keep at it).
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SuperBee
5019 posts
Oct 10, 2017
6:37 PM
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Hi PM 42,
i haven't personally checked against the record, but that site is at odds with at least one list in circulation and often given as a reference. (This is extracted from a much larger list of 528 harp-centric albums by various artists. I have found a number of problems with this list especially when it comes to chromatic keys and positions but generally the key of song is right in those i've actually checked.)
i do believe early in the morning is in A on a D harp, not in D as the spotontrack list says.
anyway, try these suggestions and see what you think, compared to the spotontrack list:
Snatch It Back and Hold It - B, A Harp (3rd Position)
Ships on the Ocean - Bm, A Harp (3rd Position)
Good Morning Little Schoolgirl - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
Hound Dog - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
In the Wee Hours - Dm, 1st solo: Chromatic,
Hey Lawdy Mama - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
Hoodoo Man Blues - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
Early in the Morning - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
We're Ready - Am, G Harp (3rd Position)
You Don't Love Me, Baby - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
Chitlin con Carne - Am, D Harp (2nd Position)
Yonder Wall - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
Hoodoo Man Blues [Alternate] - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
Chitlin con Carne [Alternate] - Am, D Harp (2nd Position)
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 11, 2017 12:24 PM
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SuperBee
5021 posts
Oct 11, 2017
3:00 AM
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Yeah PM42, that spotontrack list is right off beam. I just checked the first 9 tracks on hoodoo man and my list is correct.
Their bpm’s are completely wrong also. I don’t think ‘ships on the ocean is 181 bpm. It’s more like 60!
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 11, 2017 3:26 AM
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SuperBee
5022 posts
Oct 11, 2017
3:14 AM
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I just realised the spamnet will grab this if I don’t fix it fast. This is a link to the URL which PM42 posted above.
Hopefully there is enough extra verbiage now to qualify as a legit post.
Can’t get the link to work, can’t see why, but here is the URL standing alone to make it easy to copy and paste.
http://www.spotontrack.com/album/hoodoo-man-blues/69920
list of keys
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 11, 2017 3:23 AM
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SuperBee
5023 posts
Oct 11, 2017
3:59 AM
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And another thing
I remember one time long ago someone posted here that Jr Wells was a great singer but not a very good harp player.
I dunno what planet some people are from. I’ve just been listening to hoodoo man blues for the last 40 minutes and there’s no doubt Jr was a total badass. How could anyone think this is ‘not a very good harp player’?
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PM42
36 posts
Oct 11, 2017
4:24 AM
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Thanks for the help, SuperBee.
And yes, Junior Wells: total badass. No real fireworks, just great playing.
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Bilzharp
152 posts
Oct 11, 2017
9:47 AM
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If I've missed the song key on the bandstand, I use pretty much the same method Winslow described. I try to let the tonic sort of resound in my head then I grab a C harp and play (off to the side) a quick scale on the low end of the harp till I find that note. With most guitar-based bands, it's highly unlikely that they're playing in F#,Ab or Eb so you can usually find it quickly by just playing a diatonic scale. If not, repeat with a chromatic scale. Yes, I can eventually figure out what note I'm playing with whatever harp I have but with a C harp I don't have to stop and think about it. I'm ready to join the rest of the band after the 4 bar intro.
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nacoran
9633 posts
Oct 11, 2017
12:35 PM
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"I don’t understand the point of the circle of fifths harp arrangement thing. Once you have the tonic in your ear, why not just find it on the harp in your hand?" Timeistight
That works if you know all the notes by name on the harp you have in your hand, but when you are starting out memorizing the circle of fifths (or just using a chart to lay out your harps) is faster than memorizing the notes on 12 harps, and gives you the advantage of helping out with figuring out positions too. And you don't even need to know what the tonic is! :)
Of course, you can always grab the C harp and find the tonic and then find the note, or better yet, grab a pitch pipe. A lot of the time you can get a pretty good guess based on the instrumentation of the song. I've found a huge portion of old 50s stuff with piano is played in the key of C. Lazy piano players! Horns are very often in Bb. Lots of guitar blues is in E. Celtic stuff is often in D. I use that as a starting point for what harp to grab for the circle.
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Nate
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STME58
2032 posts
Oct 11, 2017
5:41 PM
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Nate writes, "Celtic stuff is often in D" I have noticed that it is hard to find tin whistles in keys other that C and D. That goes along with this comment. I wonder what the history is behind that.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 11, 2017 5:42 PM
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dougharps
1593 posts
Oct 11, 2017
8:35 PM
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In live music situations I often can read the guitar chords. If the chords are too far up the neck, too complex, or too fast I will try to find the tonic on a C harp. Sometimes I can make a guess based on the sound, but not reliably. I will ask if I get the chance. Sometimes I quietly try a few harps before getting the key and position figured out... off mic, of course!
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Doug S.
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nacoran
9634 posts
Oct 11, 2017
8:46 PM
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STME58,
A quick google, and it looks like... other forums fight about music theory too!
thesession
The short answer seems to be that they had some diatonic instruments that were harder than harmonicas to carry around a bunch of, so their tunes were written for those instruments...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_flute
(Obviously, tin whistles would be easier to fit in a pocket and probably even more economical than harmonicas!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_traditional_music
http://treelight.com/music/irish-music/introducing-irish-music/
I'm going to keep looking to see if I can find a more definitive answer.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-chart-of-the-most-commonly-used-keys-shows-our-actual-1703086174
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Oct 11, 2017 8:52 PM
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Andrew
1694 posts
Oct 13, 2017
11:47 AM
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I remember the days when music shops would stock tin whistles in a display box like this one.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Generation-Whistles-SC-Display-Card/dp/B0030MB18U/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1507920338&sr=8-8&keywords=tin+whistles
True, this one is a bit limited - no A.
But there is no reason why traditional music should be written in more than a couple of keys.
It also depends on the other accompanying traditional instruments.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Oct 13, 2017 11:50 AM
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