I was at a drunken barbeque this summer and someone got pissy with me because I referred to Rice Miller. He asked if I also said Maurice Mickelwhite instead of Michael Caine. I just find it cumbersome to say "Sonny Boy Williamson The Second", which you have to say in case people think you're talking about The First (although fewer people have heard of him) What do you think?
Last Edited by Andrew on Sep 28, 2017 6:48 AM
It was kind of a musical barbie - all to do with the Lewisham uke group, but the man I was talking to was a professional art historian. He gets pissy with everyone about everything. All you have to do is stand your ground. Then he likes you. ---------- Andrew. -----------------------------------------
Last Edited by Andrew on Sep 28, 2017 6:58 AM
I suppose it would be a bit arch to use someone's given name instead of their stage name in general. But in this case it makes sense to differentiate. In print it's often SBI, SBII but that's hard to say.
Sounds like a good party though, drunken art historians, ukulele and harp players.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 28, 2017 9:32 AM
First time I ever discussed SBWII with Charlie Musselwhite, circa 1971, he used the Rice Miller name - and I think Charlie may have known him; I remember him telling stories about SBWII's live performances. If it's good enough for Charlie, it's good enough for me.
Now if there were two Michael Caines acting (something that is officially disallowed, hence the use of middle names, even made-up ones, such as Jennifer Love Hewitt) then maybe Maurice Micklewhite and Archie Leach (Cary Grant) would be common usages. =========== Winslow
And we'd see ignoramuses arguing endlessly in YouTube comments about how that was really Maurice Micklewhite playing Richard III and not Olivier. =========== Winslow
I don't really like calling him 'Sonny Boy 2' or 'Sonny Boy Williamson 2' but calling him Rice Miller is a harp player thing, I think. I still feel like I'd have to say Sonny Boy Williamson if I was mentioning him to a person who wasn't a harp player; my guitarist for instance. If I told him I wanted to play a Rice Miller song he wouldn't know what I meant. He might think it was a job description.
Man alive, that's harsh. I wish I had those kind of arguments at drunken barbeques, instead of having to listen to opinions about the football (for me, that was a penalty all day long) or the best road to get to Swindon.
Here's an interesting fact - the man who hosted the barbecue was once offered free tickets to a Clapton gig by Eric Clapton himself and he turned them down! ---------- Andrew. -----------------------------------------
I don't hear people calling Muddy Waters McKinley Morganfield or Howlin' Wolf Chester Burnett. Would you have called him Rice Miller to his face if you didn't know him personally?
If there were two famous and equally good Muddy Waters or two equally good and famous Howlin' Wolfs then, yes, you would end up calling them by their real (or at least unique) names so that you could clarify which one you were speaking about.
If you just say "Sonny Boy Williamson" you nearly always have to clarify which one, unless the context makes it completely obvious. And judging by the stupid arguments people get into in the comments sections of YouTube videos, even then it doesn't help :) =========== Winslow
Your point is well taken, Winslow. However, only some blues harmonica players know who Rice Miller was. Not every blues fan knows who Rice Miller was. Nothing wrong with calling him that on a blues harp forum. After John Lee Williamson's tragic death in 1948, he was the only one recording under the name Sonny Boy Williamson and that wasn't until 1951. They never recorded at the same time. Even the people who recorded with him called him Sonny Boy. The clips of him playing in Europe on the internet has him introduced as Sonny Boy Williamson. Leonard Chess called him Sonny Boy as did Robert Jr. Lockwood, Buddy Guy and others. Howlin' Wolf sometimes called him Rice Miller but he was the Wolf's brother-in-law. I respect your opinion, Winslow, I just believe in calling some one by what he wanted his audience to know him by.
Ever since I started playing at the age of 15 in Canada in the pre-internet 1960s, I knew that there were two Sonny Boys and which one was which. And every blues fan I knew, harmonica player or not, also knew. DanP, I think you may underestimate the extent to which blues fans are aware of the differences.
Frankly, I'm astonished at the statement, "However, only some blues harmonica players know who Rice Miller was." Any blues harmonica player who doesn't know has no excuse; they simply haven't done their homework.
OK, sure, in some contexts it's OK not to specify. And those contexts are usually well understood. But for some doofus to give someone grief for saying Rice Miller (or John Lee Williamson) is simply wrong. =========== Winslow
Mr. Yerxa, I have a lot of respect for you. I have both of your harmonica books and I think you're a great teacher and by reading your books, it's obvious that know a lot about blues and blues history but I don't like being called a doofus and I'm not giving anyone grief for saying Rice Miller instead of Sonny Boy Williamson. This is just my opinion. Maybe I'm different because I lived 40 years before the internet and I knew there was two Sonny Boy Williamsons 20 years before I knew the second one's name was Rice Miller. I found that out by reading the late Robert Palmer's (a fellow Arkansan) book Deep Blues back in the 1980s. I told you I get your point and respect it and you should show me a modicum of respect in return. I think it is stupid to even be arguing about this and this is all I'm going to say on this topic.
rice miller stole john lees identity....identity theft ahead of its time.....he should have thought up some other pen name.....I choose to call him rice miller and not john lee williamsons real name....that being said they were both among the greatest blues harp players ever
According to the John Lee Williamson bio, JLW was aware of RM's ID theft, and actually wasn't bothered by it. Evidently JLW travelled to Helena, Arkansas and met with RM, but according to those familiar with the incident, the meeting was cordial and not hostile, as it has sometimes been portrayed. The rationale given in the bio was that the two men were operating in different regions - JLW in Chicagoland, RM in Arkansas and neighboring areas, and that regional separation didn't hurt JLW. =========== Winslow
Timothy 'Hawkeye' Kane vs. Tim Kaine, there are two Michael Rubins out there that play harmonica too. The 'second' one now goes by Michael 'Wolf' Rubin.
Sometimes you need some way to tell people with similar names apart. I had a math teacher who insisted on calling me 'Nat', which wouldn't have been a problem except he insisted on calling the young lady in front of me on the seating chart (Natalie) Nat too. I guess I'm lucky that my parents chose to give me a fairly uncommon first name. My stepmom has the same name as my aunt. Smith is just too common.
I suppose it could be worse... I could have an incredibly common name like Winslow Yerxa... I bet he has problems with that all the time! :)
You mean Winston Exray? Or that other guy, Wilson Zerxes? Or, or, or . . .
(When I was in high school, a friend mentioned my name at home and his grandmother piped up and said, "Winslow Yerxa? What kind of name is that - Babylonian?") =========== Winslow
Whether you use a person's birth name or their stage name depends on circumstance. I worked in radio for 16 years and many of the jocks I worked with used stage names to protect their privacy and/or to make them sound more memorable. On air or on stage it would always be best to use their stage name, but in private conversation it doesn't make a lot of difference. Most of the guys and gals I worked with really didn't care. Only those with the large egos could get their backs up.
You could argue that his name wasn’t really “Rice Miller” either. He was born “Alex Ford”; “Miller” was his stepfather’s name and “Rice” was a childhood nickname. And “Alex” was evidently pronounced “Aleck”.
Early in his career he borrowed the name of his older brother to call himself “Willie Miller”. At other times, he billed himself as “Little Boy Blue,” “The Talaho Blues Singer,” “Sonny Boy Williams,” “Sonny Boy Miller” or “Willie ‘Sonny Boy’ Williamson”.
So “Sonny Boy II” seems like the best to me.
Last Edited by timeistight on Oct 06, 2017 1:08 PM
I've even heard that Rice Miller was a nickname that derived from his association with the King Biscuit Flour Co.What matters is that it's his best known unique identifier. =========== Winslow
@winslow.....snooky pryor said in interview which was recorded,that john lee took rice miller off the air in helena.....he did not say the meeting was less than cordial......this happened long before we were born.....rice definitely stole john lees identity and was wrong to have done it.....rice agreed with request to avoid civil suit
Snooky wasn't an eyewitness. Those who were say different. Read the JLW biography. It's well researched and debunks some oft-repeated myths, including this one. =========== Winslow
All I know is when I hear "my baby called the law, `cause I wanna see what I got from my santa claus" I know that's Sonny boy....."Started rambling` through her dresser drawers"...too cool.....
Last Edited by nowmon on Oct 10, 2017 11:37 AM
their styles were nothing even close.....anybody who heard john lee play could easily tell that was not sonny boy playing.........dont know why rice thought he had to steal john lees identity
I used to have a cd of John Lee but guess who was on the cover. Miller could have chosen a different name and all this would not be an issue. Everybody does not know me as my stage name and many don't I have a stage name. There is no other harp guy I know of with my stage name and none associated with anyone named Jolene. I would not have chosen a name someone else was using. ----------
JBONE WROTE: There is no other harp guy I know of with my stage name
Actually, Jawbone is the stage ("band") name associated with me when I play with Tim Cook, who received his stage name ("Steelbone") from none other than Country Dick Montana when they played in a band (the Snuggle Bunnies). Here's a video of Dick and Tim together in the Incredible Hayseeds, another of their projects together.
Tim is playing trombone, the other half of the inspiration for his handle (he's a steel player too). I only use Jawbone (actually, it's Tim who uses it to refer to me) with I play with him. I'm not even Gnarly most of the time, for example, my wife refuses to refer to me with that name. I thinks she's afraid of being called, "Mrs. Gnarly" . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Oct 11, 2017 8:05 PM
I think there is a (currently non-posting) member here actually uses the handle ‘jawbone’. Comes up sometimes in searches.
The issue of the guys sounding totally different: I heard SB2 was quite capable of playing his stuff like SB1. I can’t remember who said this, but I can hear the voice saying ‘he could play Sonny boy’s stuff better than Sonny boy’
Remember, they were not recording in the same periods.
The question of whether 2 was trying to ‘steal’ the identity of 1: its entirely possible the use of the moniker was not SB2’s idea but rather the promoter’s idea. SB1 was a popular recording artist. SB2 was not stealing market share, he had no records for sale. But he was getting attention for a radio show and getting other performers some publicity on the show also.
Had they both been trying to move product in the same market or were they competing for gigs, it’d be a different story.
It’s not the only case of false advertising to attract an audience. I believe I’ve heard George Smith would use misleading advertising also. But it is unusual in that one party eventually fully took on the name, used it to record and became known by it. The number of people these days who use ‘rice miller’ seems to be growing.
That thing with the CD, I also have a SB1 CD with pictures of SB2 on the cover.
@superbee when rice miller was playing on the king biscuit show it would have been obvious to anyone listening that it was not john lee playing...they were both incredible harp players in their own right....I really dont think either one was superior to the other....little walter played somewhat like john lee early in his career before establishing his own style
Jacobs made his first released recordings in 1947 for Bernard Abrams' tiny Ora-Nelle label, which operated out of the back room of Abrams' Maxwell Radio and Records store in the heart of the Maxwell Street district in Chicago.[8] These and several other of his early recordings, like many blues harp recordings of the era, owed a strong stylistic debt to the pioneering blues harmonica player Sonny Boy Williamson I (John Lee Williamson
Gnarly, I suspect this is sort of like the territory thing. I doubt we'll be in the same place playing.
SuperBee, Are you referring to Jawbone from Canada? We're good friends. He's moved on to CBG's last I knew.
This is a moniker I was given over 20 years ago when we had a band named Bone Dance. We all had "Bone" nicknames as well. When that adventure was all over the name still stuck on me. I doubt many people would remember my given name so I kept it. ----------
I knew id read this somewhere. It’s in the book Winslow referred to above. Robert Lockwood is quoted as saying ‘he could play sonny boy’s stuff better than Sonny boy’ There’s also some interesting quotes from billy boy, about how sonny boy was so well known as a harp player that anyone who could play would be dubbed ‘sonny boy’ at that time.
Edit:well that’s annoying. Something must have changed, i cant seem to get links to work anymore. Oh well, here is the URL
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Su73DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=he+could+play+sonny+boy%27s+stuff+better+than+sonny+boy&source=bl&ots=1dclSyWw2g&sig=gFgA2RJA8AVa-1xxq_1xPJ3aVME&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO4aK_5uvWAhWGwLwKHeVvCx0Q6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=he%20could%20play%20sonny%20boy's%20stuff%20better%20than%20sonny%20boy&f=false
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 12, 2017 12:42 PM
