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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Positions, improvisation on 12 bar blues
Positions, improvisation on 12 bar blues
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johan d
89 posts
Sep 28, 2017
12:06 AM
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Hello Tomlin,
I watched some Tomlin video's on positions. What I think i understand is:
If you improvise over a 12 bar blues in G, you use a C harmonica, and use the G blues scale notes to play a melody over the G chord.
Than you change position to 1, and use the C blues scale notes to improvise over the C Chords.
On bar 9, you change to position 3, and use the D blues scale notes put bring out a melody.
Does that make sense?
BR, Johan
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johan d
90 posts
Sep 28, 2017
3:59 AM
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/swJ2cOjNsKoaCtW22
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timeistight
2215 posts
Sep 28, 2017
8:19 AM
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No, you don’t generally play the C and D blues scales on a G blues. You typically either play the G blues scale throughout, play the G blues scale throughout but add chord tones from each chord appropriately, or play other scales that fit each chord.
An approach that can work well is to play the G major blues scale (a major blues scales is a major pentatonic scale with an added minor third) over the the G chords do and a G blues scale over the C and D chord. Another, slightly jazzier approach is to play G, C and D mixolydian scales over the appropriate chords.
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hvyj
3486 posts
Sep 30, 2017
9:58 PM
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What timeistight said. However, reference to the blues scale of the chord you are in can be helpful for note selection. For example, 6 draw bent (the flat 2 or flat 9 of the key and the highest available draw bend) is not generally a good blues note in second position. BUT, it happens to be the flat fifth of the V chord and so sounds bluesy and works well as a crescendo note on the V chord although you don't want to over do it since it's such an "in your face" timbre.
Another example: Major blues scale notes of the key you are in provide nice color and variety, but you don't want to play the major third of the key on the IV chord because it is the major seventh of that chord and sounds dissonant and not bluesy.
Another thing you can do is think myxolydian of the key you are in when working the high register (but avoiding the major third, draw 7 in second position, on the IV chord). When working the high end keep in mind that thinking in terms of extension tones can also be useful.
For example, since draw 10 is the ninth, playing a draw 10, draw 9 double stop sounds good because draw 9 is the flat seventh and these notes harmonize well.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 30, 2017 10:02 PM
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WinslowYerxa
1437 posts
Oct 01, 2017
4:51 AM
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That's one way to look at it, but look at the evidence of how the greats played. None of them did this.
This kind of cookie-cutter thinking of switching positions and transposing blues scales for each chord is useful for exploring possibilities but in the end is not what the best players do.
For instance, when you go to the IV chord (C in this case), pretty much nobody uses the blues scale for that chord:
C Eb F Gb G Bb
It will sound way too minor and besides, it requires several overblows to get Eb (Holes 1 and 4) and Gb (Hole 5) and even Bb (Hole 6).
Generally the blues scale for the V chord (D in this case, or D F G Ab A C) will work over both the V chord and the I chord, while I chord blues scale (G Bb C Db D F), even though it requires some overblows to play over the entire range of the harmonica, will work over both the I chord and the IV chord.
Switching position for each chord gives you a framework for exploring, but will sound mechanical in actual music making if you're not careful. After all, positions relate to keys, not individual chords. The best players sound like they're playing second position in relation to the entire song and, if you listen carefully, often sound like they're just inflecting the I chord to fit the other chords by selective use of bends and blow notes (and technically "wrong-for-the-chord" blue notes) to favor whatever chord is passing by.
Another way to look at the blues scale is, instead of switching scales for every chord, you're just taking the major scale of the key (G in this case) and adding the three main blue notes to it, the flat third (Bb), the flat fifth (Db) and the flat 7th (F natural as opposed to F#), or:
G A (Bb) B C (Db) D E (F) F#
and using them where they sound good. This way of looking at things gives you more freedom and fluidity to pour lines over the entire framework of a phrase instead of worrying about which scale or position goes with which chord.
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Winslow
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Oct 01, 2017 4:54 AM
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GamblersHand
666 posts
Oct 01, 2017
6:06 AM
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The original question's been answered very well above, but a couple of personal observations which might work for you.
If you're playing Cross Harp, then the 3 hole draw is one of the main differentiators between the chord changes.
On the I chord, anything from the unbent note to the first semitone bend will sound good. The full tone bend is ok in moderation (especially on a more major / less bluesy tune, but usually as a passing note)
On the IV chord use the first semitone bend, nothing higher. The full tone bend is ok too in moderation.
On the V chord, the full tone bend is the main note choice. You can bend it further for more bluesy effect, or play the natural unbent note (in moderation). Nothing in-between though
Also, I find that thinking in the relative scales against the chords can be effective for more major-sounding blues tunes e.g. swing, major key rhumbas, most 8-bar blues. For example articulating the arpeggios (I-III-V or I-III-V-VIIb) and using the 2nd scale note against the V chord. For downhome blues I would stick to the blues scale.
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Oct 02, 2017 6:26 AM
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The Iceman
3363 posts
Oct 01, 2017
8:56 AM
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words words words trying to describe good note choices over certain chords.
I've nothing against theory, as it opens all the doors to endless possibilities and offers explanations for each. Knowing theory makes listening to all kinds of music more fun - knowing theory attached to music history and development of theory over the centuries also adds to the enjoyment of listening to P.D.Q. Bach - (Peter Schickele's mad mad hilarious approach), as it is here that he purposefully breaks the rules for comic effect.
So, venture forth as much as you find comfortable in regards to terminology and theory, but remember - first came the music, then came the theory to try to analyze why music sounds the way it does.
back to this immediate thread - one exercise I've enjoyed with students in teaching them how to make good note choices over the blues changes is to have them solo on 3 hole inhale ONLY over all these changes.
Simplified, you can play 3 hole inhale over the I chord, change to inhale 3 first bend for the IV chord, and 3 hole inhale second bend over the V chord.
Now, these are not the ONLY way you can use 3 hole inhale only over the changes, but do set the groundwork to begin to understand your choices.
It also tickles the ear - put on a medium shuffle blues background track and try sustaining the notes described above over the proper chords - long tones - and listen.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Oct 01, 2017 9:02 AM
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johan d
91 posts
Oct 01, 2017
10:49 PM
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@iceman: Simplified, you can play 3 hole inhale over the I chord, change to inhale 3 first bend for the IV chord, and 3 hole inhale second bend over the V chord.
You got 4(5) notes out of a 3 draw, which do you mean: 3, (blue note), b3, 2, b2?
Last Edited by johan d on Oct 01, 2017 10:50 PM
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The Iceman
3366 posts
Oct 02, 2017
3:44 AM
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I'm not a fan of that (blue note), so use only 4 notes from that 3 inhale. The b2 (as you describe it) is not used in this exercise.
However, since you mention the b2, have a bit o' fun with it by embracing an arpeggio that uses it as the second tone...
2 hole exhale, 3 hole inhale third bend, 3 hole inhale and 5 hole exhale.
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The Iceman
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