@JoeL: "Martin - call it a hobby horse, if you wish, but it's a proven fact. The players that have warmth and intimacy have that through pretty much any equipment. You've been given a bunch of great advice, but you seem sort of dismissive
I'm not going to critique your playing. If you don't dig your sound, you can work on it or keep chasing equipment until you find what you're looking for. Good luck in your quest."
Dismissive? I don´t get that. I´ve said several times that I´m extremely grateful, and I´m taking notes and showing these entries to a guy who´s a lot more connected to technical stuff than I am.
In terms of chasing equipment, well I don´t believe that I´m one of the guys on this forum with *most' equipment, rather the contrary -- but that´s just an asumption. And as far as sounding good goes, as I said above, that Beyer M160 was the ticket for me. But ribbon mics are very pricey, and, so I´ve been informed here, rather delicate. So, well, I´m gonna keep chasing. It would be interesting to know a player you find who have "warmth and intimacy" in his/her sound.
@timeistight: "Four years": Sorry, that was something I had forgotten. I beg your pardon. You see, at times i get confused when it´s getting technical and at that time I should have taken heed of dougsharps advice. This time I´ve done it, and a DI box is soon coming my way. (A cheapo alternative to the Palmer, but as I said, I have a friend who is (slowly) putting something together for me that will solve all my problems.)
@Tuckster: "Martin- I couldn't view that last video. Just what are you looking for in your ultimate mic? You said you prefer the sound of the Audix and the Beyer. Those are both very clean undistorted mics. You said the Audix lacks intimacy. Could you elaborate on that?"
Unimportant video. Small gig at a café/bookstore w/ just a mini amp.
The Audix is a bit cold, and no "proximitiy effect", as I´ve learnt that it´s called. It tends to sound the same no matter what, and you can´t get that Stan Getz wheezing effect.
The Beyer ribbon was perfect (into PA); the other Beyer is warm but weak. Now I have hopes for a new EV PL 35.
Martin - Since this thread has helpfully opened the door on being technically correct, that is not the 'proximity effect' you're referring to. The change of timbre and volume from cupping is a different effect. 'Proximity Effect' is something specific to particular types of microphone.
But, back to the knitting. Someone already mentioned the Lone Wolf 'Frontman' pedal in at least one of these threads. That's what you want for technical correctitude with your Lo-Z mic, effects loop and outputs to either amp or PA. All in one, all correct, no mess no fuss. Not cheap, but just the job.
You could ask your friend to make you something similar, maybe a simpler passive device with two IMTs in. You plug your mic in one end, have a loop through your effects pedals, then get a balanced 'Lo-Z' output to PA.
Functionally no different from what Doug (et al) have suggested - IMT and DI box. But more robust and convenient.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 19, 2017 3:05 PM
a sm 57 is known for its proximity effect, move it closer to a speaker you get more bass, cup the mic and you get the same result.
a sm 58 does not do this, neither does the fireball. so if it is not the proximity effect how do you explain how this works on one mic and not the other.
My experience is that a 58 does have proximity effect. If you sing right on the mic it darkens your voice tone, increasing lows. If you sing back from the mic, it doesn't. With the Fireball V playing on or back doesn't seem to change voice quality at all, or not enough to notice.
I think that when cupping the mics it is easier to fully enclose and seal off the element of a 57, while a ball mic is not easily fully enclosed. The handheld 58 usually doesn't create as much drive, because the element still can "breathe". For this reason the hand wah technique is much less dramatic for a 58 as compared to a 57.
I use an Ultimate 58 to play to the PA, and a loose cup right on the 58 does darken the tone, giving more lows and smoothing out shrillness. ----------
The proximity effect is one thing (move it close to a source and get more bass). Cupping is a different thing.
The proximity effect is a consequence of the way directional microphones work. That's not about the element alone, it's also about the housing. The SM58 shows less proximity effect partly because you can't get the element as close to the source (instrument, speaker or mouth) as an SM57.
Omni-directional mics e.g. bullet mics don't have the proximity effect but do obviously respond to cupping.
Cupping response seems to be a trial and error thing, but I agree with Doug about that it's stronger on a mic where you can get a fuller seal. Unscrew the ball of the SM58 and it does respond much more to cupping.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 19, 2017 11:17 PM
@MindTheGap: Thanks for correcting me: I thought proximity in this case referred to the (increased) closeness to the mic and what happens then. The Beyer M160 I mentioned had a fabulous response in that aspect. ("Intimate", as I called it.) But I´ll say "close cupping" hereafter.
The "Frontman" had no doubt been a valuable addition to my equipment. But then I would have have to not eat for a couple of weeks or so. Of course, "What price art?" but I´m always compelled to look for the budget alternatives. And right now that´s a (passive) DI box, then something that´s going to be built for me by my friend and which will "solve all my problems", as he says. We´ll see about that ...
Andrew, I know it's great isn't it! This is payback for all the multi-page threads I've dutifully read about tiny (imperceptible?) differences between the sound of different harp models :)
Martin - I know, none of the LW kit is cheap, but it is right.
If you can get to your friend quickly and ask him, then with the addition of an another IMT and a few more sockets, you'll have a 'passive frontman' and every other harp player you meet will regard you with awe.
You'll be able to adopt that enigmatic, content smile that they have in car adverts (in the UK at least). Mmmmmm.
I had composed a reply to the last entry on page 1 but then delayed posting it because it wasn't 100% polite. Then I posted it and realised it was a dozen posts ago. Oops! ---------- Andrew. -----------------------------------------
the shure 58 exhibits a subdued proximity effect, removing the grill will in allow the element to be in "closer proximity" and will act similar to the 57.
the only difference is the 57 has a small air space beneath the element.
I'm going to try to answer the original question one final time.
A Shure SM57 and the Audix FireBall microphones are a low impedance microphones. When using a low impedance microphone with a guitar or harmonica amplifier, plug the XLR cable from the microphone into the transformer and plug the 1/2" jack on the transformer into the amplifier. Easy peasy!
Since, you are a pedal guy, it becomes far more complex. plug the XLR cable from the microphone into the transformer and plug the 1/2" jack on the transformer into the input of the first pedal in the chain.
Connect the output of that pedal to the input of the next pedal. Continue connecting pedals in this fashion until you run out of pedals.
At the final pedal in the chain, plug a standard guitar cable into output of the pedal into the input on the amplifier. It's a little more complex, but still doable.
A DI Box is not used for any of these tasks. It is typically used to convert a high impedance out signals into a format suitable for direct connection to a mixing console's mic input usually a low impedance signal typically using an XLR connector.
Finally, if money is an issue, an impedance matching transformer is going to cost far less than the cost of another microphone. The transformers usually run less than $40(US) and can often be found for less. They are super easy to find online. This doesn't have to cost a lot of money and it is super, super easy to do. You don't really need to know anything about the electricity involved.
Last Edited by Joe_L on Sep 20, 2017 11:23 AM
@Joe L: Thank you very much. Commendable concreteness there!
Here is what my local tech guy says -- and he´s a little bit annoyed that I´m requsting info from "amateurs" when I have his more than 50 yrs professional experience at hand, but, as I tell him, you shall never put all your eggs in one basket and there´s always a potential profit to be gained in hearing about other harmonica players solutions. (Bo, as he´s called, is not a harmonica player.) Here in Swedish:
"EN PASSIV DI-BOX är inget annat än en impedansomvandlare som innehåller en transformator från obalanserat hög-ohmigt till balanserat låg-ohmigt, och den går utmärkt att vända på och använda åt andra hållet om så önskas. Enda nackdelen är om du använder den "tvärtom/baklänges" så stämmer inte "könet" på DI-boxens XLR-kontakt, så du får använda en "XLR-vända" men det är det minsta problemet du har. Du kan vänta på min "smarta box" eller köpa Palmer eller annan något dyrare/bättre passiv DI-box som EMO eller Radial och liknande, som fixar dina anpassningsproblem under tiden, men gå inte på några andra dumma förslag."
I attempt a translation -- and I hesitate here, since I´m really not sure about the technical terms, but still. Here goes:
"A passive DI box is nothing but an impedance converter that contains a transformer from un-balanced high-Ohm to balanced low-Ohm and it can be reversed without any problems and used in the other direction if you should so wish. The only downside, if you use it "backwards", is that the "sex" (gender?) of the DI-box´s XLR connection won´t match so you´ll have to use an "XLR turn" (??), but that´s the least of your problems. Now you can wait for me to build that "smart box" or buy a Palmer or a more expensive/better passive DI-box like EMO or Radial that will take care of your problems for the time being, but don´t fall for any other stupid notions."
Something like that -- if that makes sense? Are you and he on the same page?
Last Edited by Martin on Sep 21, 2017 9:57 AM
Yes, all good. Everyone's saying the same thing, plus some extra ideas like the tube preamp. That's not a stupid notion really.
Although hats off to Bo for being the only one to mention that you'd need a gender-changing cable or adaptor to run the DI box in reverse. You see, experience wins.
So what's in the "smart box" that Bo is going to build? Or is that a DI box? Can't he build it with the two IMTs in like I suggested and make you The Man?
Pleased this thread is still going, I thought it was over.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 21, 2017 10:11 AM
Here is demo (not by me) of the preamp I mentioned on page 1. What I didn't know was that you can send 2 signals out...1/4" out to your harp amp and XLR out to the PA board.
@gmacleod: Please tell us of your experiences if you get one. (I happen to have one here right beside me, loaned from a friend, but it ain´t working.) Would be real interesting to see a video of various settings in a harmonica context.
@MindTheGap: To be frank, I´m not really sure what his magic box is going to contain. I´ve been giving him my situation with mics amps and what have you and he says something like: "Take it easy, Martin, you are supposed to be the guy who plays that thing; I´m supposed to be the guy who´s fixing the tech stuff." Which is kind of reassuring, since I have something of a hard time (putting it mildly!) to digest the finer points of electronics. Problem is that he´s retired now, and I don´t want to push him to much, since he´s also doing this for free (two bottles og decent wine is fair compensation, he says) and he has the right to enjoy his halcyon days. But I´ll make some kind of demo when it´s been done.
JoeL: Oh I do, surely. But you can´t really expect specialised knowledge of the tin sandwich dilemmas in everyone -- and therefore, as I said, there might be shortcuts etc that some of you harmonica players with better insights in the tech area has taken. As a matter of fact, first time I talked to him about these things (he was at a gig where I played) he was kinda put off but that rather intense cupping of the mic that we tend to prefer. Which hinted to me that he had not spent a lot of time with harmonicists ... He´s something of a local whiz kid, self taught, and been in the PA, amp, mic, sound rigging business since the 60´s.
Last Edited by Martin on Sep 21, 2017 2:47 PM
I have this preamp and a similar Berhinger model. I have had both for a couple years. The preamp will do to harp what the video above showed for voice and guitar. Allows you to connect to what ever amp with whatever mic. With regards to sound, I use it for a clean sound for vocal and acoustic harp, but if you turn up the gain it can get distorted.
However if I want an overdriven sound I use different gear. I like it for clean acoustic sound.
It requires power so maybe that is why yours loaner isn't working?? maybe a tube but they should last for years. ---------- MBH member since 2009-03-24
@gmacleod: Although I´m slow on the uptake when it comes to electronics, I figured out that it needed power. It could very well be the tube -- and I will ask its owner who then maybe will sell it to me for a couple of beers.
I´m not a fan of that one-sound-the-whole-night-through, big distortion, chucka chucka, that a lot of blues players strive for, so the ART might be interesting for me in my pursuit of "warmth".
Martin - you raise an important point about special knowledge on harmonica kit. As I've outlined the signal levels from cupped-mic are unusual compared to the conventions that sound techs are used to dealing with.
A sound tech not familiar with this might do what is 'technically correct' with your mic signal and get unwanted results.
I remember an interview with Bill Wyman, who said that in the early days they'd record with BBC engineers who were very good at getting clean, distortion free signals out of the equipment. Hi-Fi, but not what they wanted. When they went to record at Chess, he was given a "jack socket in the wall" to plug his bass into, and out came a good and horrible blues-bass sound.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 22, 2017 12:13 AM
1847 - That's a good setup you have there. Protect your IMT and your amp from physical damage.
Martin - what 1847 has in the picture is a conventional IMT, with the output going into a female-female 1/4" adaptor, then a standard guitar cable into the amp or pedals. Those adaptors are cheap, off-the-shelf items.
Martin with regards to power, the preamp uses 9 volt AC not the standard 9 volt DC which most pedals use so watch for that. If power is getting to the tube you should be able to see a dim glow from the tube especially in low light. ---------- MBH member since 2009-03-24
@MindTheGap: Yep, I recognise that thing, it´s the same as was given here (or in another of my treads) in a link to Thomann. Cost 20 Euros or so. AS of now I understand it that I won´t be needing one, but we´ll se how practical that box is.
@1847: Yes, that´s what I mean. It´s a fabulous sound -- if you´re playing hard core blues, but it´s a bit of a one trick pony. I play stuff where it´s definitely not needed. Still, I wouldn´t mind to have it in my bag, so to speak.
@MindTheGap: The Beatles boys also told stories about those EMI technicians who always turned down when things entered into the red and started to sound good. What little I´ve learnt of sound technicians through the years is that they are rarely characterised by humility. Instead of saying, "Aha, is this what you mean?" or "I´m not sure I understand" they rather trudge along and make you sound like shite: Never confess to ignorance or uncertainty. At a Kim Wilson gig once, small jazz club, I observed to the sound guy, politely, didn´t want to sound like a busybody, that you coouldn´t hear the harmonica. Since that was rather a large part of Kim´s appeal it seemed a pity. He just turned his back to me and didn´t change a thing. I´m afraid I have several such stories, even where I´ve been involved myself.
1) An impedance matching transformer and a DI box are the same thing, EXCEPT that the connector sex is different. The thing we call an impedance matching transformer has the right connectors (XLR female, 1/4" male) for connecting a low impedance mic to a high impedance input. A DI box has the right connectors (XLR male, 1/4" female) for connecting a high impedance mic to a low impedance input.
2) Low impedance gear is wired in balanced mode. High impedance gear is wired in unbalanced mode. That means if you hook one to the other without the right adapter, you not only have an impedance mismatch (which hurts efficiency and frequency response) but ALSO a mode mismatch. In the real world, the latter is the bigger problem. The signal is simply carried on a different pair of wires from one mode to the other and if you use the wrong mode you only get half of the mic's signal.
When properly wired and with a decent impedance matching transformer or DI box there is very, very little tonal loss.
BlowsMeAway sells impedance matching transformers for $19. Lone Wolf has a new very cool DI box called "Little Red" that is economical and is about 1/4 as big as conventional DI boxes. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Martin - yes, it's disappointing. I guess it's not enough to point out the bleeding obvious. You'd have to first prove that you were a more senior sound-technician. That's how it works I believe. And how it has, in every walk of life, since the dawn of time.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 24, 2017 7:36 AM
