|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Pedalboard
Pedalboard
Page:
1
SuperBee
4886 posts
Aug 12, 2017
12:14 AM
|
i have not been a heavy user of pedals but I now have 6. I generally use only 2 or 3, but recently scored a LW tone plus, with a harp attack also in the deal.
I've been annoyed by just setting up 2 or 3 with separate power supply, so I thought I may as well put them all on a board and have all 6 available for the same effort as setting up 1.
And when I got down to it, I realised I don't know what order to set them up.
I don't know if I'll use the Attack; if I do it'll be into PA I expect.
I have
Reverb
Delay
LW Octave
Harp Tone plus
Harp Attack
MXR Univibe.
mainly I don't know where to put that harp tone plus and the attack
I figure Reverb after delay and delay after the vibe and the Octave before those.
I'd appreciate advice,
Or at least informed discussion.
I plugged it in today (not the Attack) and blew a loF into a CM and output through the tweed champ. Had the tone plus after the vibe, after the Octave.
Tone plus seemed kinda like a tone minus, in that it killed the natural sparkle of the amp, but turning the bass up a lot made for an interestingly unnatural impression of bass. In conjunction with the univibe it was weirdly strange.
Probably not the ideal rig for testing though
|
dougharps
1543 posts
Aug 12, 2017
9:32 AM
|
"Probably not the ideal rig for testing though"
I think you are right in that!
At one point I used pedals quite a bit, though in recent years I have gone back to basics. I have experimented with LW pedals at SPAH, too. I did learn a few things about pedals (I think), so here is my take on your situation:
My suggestion would be to use a cleaner amp with a cleaner mic while you explore the pedal chain, and then try out the different pedals so you can really hear what they each do. I also believe that the more effects you use, the more important is a relatively clean full range signal at the start. The CM emphasizes the mids and put through multiple pedals can muddy things. I think it is best used with just an amp and maybe delay and/or reverb.
The LW Octave would seem to be redundant going into a Champ, as it enhances certain frequencies for use with a clean amp in order to mimic the ratty sound the Champ creates. I like what that pedal does, but I don't think it is good into a Champ. When used with the other tone/distortion pedals the Octave may not be as useful as with fewer tone/distortion pedals.
I agree with your thoughts about, "I figure Reverb after delay and delay after the vibe and the Octave before those." Except, when you are using the other pedals the Octave may not always be needed.
I suggest that you first try individual pedals one at a time in front of the vibe, delay, and reverb group in order to hear what each pedal contributes individually, then try pairs of pedals, etc. You could experiment with CM vs. cleaner mic (Audix Fireball, SM57, 545, 58, 585, EV630, EV RE10, etc.)
The amp and the mic combination will each have impact upon which of the other pedals improves the sound rather than muddying it.
Have fun!
P.S. This kind of experimentation with pedal mixing and matching takes a while and is loud. It is likely to annoy anyone nearby.
----------
Doug S.
|
Littoral
1518 posts
Aug 12, 2017
12:05 PM
|
dougharps "When used with the other tone/distortion pedals the Octave may not be as useful as with fewer tone/distortion pedals. "
That is my experience. I use very little of the effect on the Octave but regardless, I haven't found it to get along with a Harp Break at all.
|
hvyj
3436 posts
Aug 12, 2017
2:54 PM
|
Yes, a larger, cleaner amp would be a better pedal platform. Also, the signal from the bullet mic will not process well. The bullet will interfere with what the effects are supposed to do and the effects will not respond well to the signal from the bullet. Use a quality non bullet mic.
As you recognize, the order of the pedals is extremely important. On the back end, univibe > delay > reverb is optimum. On the front end, your are stacking 3 gain stages and making a mess.
Take the Harp Attack out of the
chain completely. It creates too much distortion to play nice with the other pedals--it ups the gain structure too radically.
Then try the Octave and the Tone Plus one at a time at the front of the chain and determine which sounds best. Then put the other one behind it and see how that sounds and if you like it. Whether you like that configuration or not, next thing to do is swap the order of the first 2 pedals and see how that sounds. THEN you can decide whether to keep both in the chain and in what order or only use one. I suspect you will only use one, but i may be wrong.
I power my pedal boards with a ONE SPOT and a multi plug harness. Works great and is very reliable. As for the pedal board itself, I have had good experiences with PedalTrain, and I like their "horizontal" designs: Metro, Nano and the discontinued Mini. Hope this is helpful!
|
SuperBee
4887 posts
Aug 12, 2017
4:12 PM
|
Thanks for all the comments. I really appreciate everyone's input. It's helped me think about this.
Currently I use delay and Reverb, sometimes I hook up the Octave depending which amp.
I use a cioks 'adam' power supply, 4 outlets, 2 dedicated 9 volt 250 ma, and 2 switchable between 9 and 12, 100ma
For some time Ive thought I really ought to get that little rig on a board to speed up my setup time and tidy up the stage.
I've also been interested in the tone plus pedal. Recently one came up for sale, and an attack with it and the bundle price drew me in so I scored both.
So really in the short term I'm only looking at setting up the delay and Reverb, but including the Octave for the fairly rare occasions I want that, and the harp tone plus is the pedal I'm most interested in as a potential in the current rig.
I really want a board I can use with various amps. I'm not thinking to use every pedal with every rig all on at the same time.
The univibe is a pedal I've been messing with sporadically but for a while. I sometimes get sounds from it which I think are worthwhile but I've never used it on a gig, and I rarely bother with it in rehearsals, just sometimes set it up at jams.
I figured if I included it on my board so it was 'there' and ready to go I might develop a couple of numbers where I think it applies. Mainly I don't bother because it's just extra stuff to set up. I did try it once on a gig but clearly hadn't done enough rehearsal and couldn't get levels right so abandoned the idea very quickly.
The attack is just a thing I bought because it was a good price and i had this longer-term idea of playing direct to PA.
I fitted it on the board but it wasn't/isn't connected in the chain.
There's no plan to use it with the Octave pedal or with any of my amps.
I don't need to manufacture dirt to compensate for a too-clean mic or amp. Maybe I'll need to have a separate board for this PA idea, no idea really. But real estate is an issue on some of these stages and if I used PA it would solve a problem that bugs me.
The Octave pedal is not about drive or distortion per Se. It's more about the quality of the clip, and it's also a feedback fighter. I sometimes use it for those purposes and sometimes it's like a volume boost to step out of the mix. The tone plus could potentially do that also but seems more likely a pedal which would stay on all the time.
So, mainly it's about the harp tone plus. I have spent enough time with the Octave to know when I want that, but not sure about that harp tone plus.
For sake of simplicity and ease of handling I'll take the attack off the board for now. Really just wanted to see that everything fits. I'll dump the vibe as well while I work out the plus, and I'll use the Princeton Reverb to help me suss it out, maybe with the 630 or 58.
Cool. Thanks everyone.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Aug 12, 2017 4:14 PM
|
hvyj
3437 posts
Aug 13, 2017
10:43 AM
|
There are different perspectives on how to utilize pedalboard effects. I tend to select and use effects that respond well to technique and can be layered or combined to produce different textures. Of course they can be used individually, too.
Of course, it is perfectly legitimate to to use a pedalboard to organize effects that are used independently of one another, either chained together in series or not. Obviously, these approaches are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Some players use some devices that are in chain along with others that are not, and many players use some devices that are always on as well as some that are not.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 13, 2017 12:48 PM
|
Littoral
1519 posts
Aug 14, 2017
8:56 AM
|
hvyi: "The bullet will interfere with what the effects are supposed to do and the effects will not respond well to the signal from the bullet."
Yes, bullets are usually put together with elements that have some "distortion" or similar harp parameters. But, the HM element Greg put in my JT shell is really sweet with my pedal board. Better than my bulletized 57. I say sweet as in crisp, very clean and it accommodates my playing really well.
|
SuperBee
4888 posts
Aug 14, 2017
3:48 PM
|
I've been using delay and Octave the last 7 years, and Reverb the last 12 months. There's no problem with using any kind of mic.
The harp tone plus seems unlikely to care about the signal source.
It's a +\- 20dB on bass and treble. Not hard to find demos of these pedals using bullet mics.
Andy Santana's demo for instance
I've put this board together
Mic>LW Harp Octave>LW Harp Tone +>LW Harp Delay>LW Harp Reverb
I will try the Harp Tone + there, and also right at the front and at the end.
I can see a case to have it at the end but also a case to think it may not matter.
Pedals all fit neatly on that rig, and the board is simple. Once I suss the best place for the tone plus, I'll introduce the vibe.
The attack will require its own power supply and it's not required at the moment so can stay out of the mix for now. I'll check it out independently of the rest.
I won't get to try it again until Wednesday evening.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Aug 14, 2017 4:08 PM
|
hvyj
3439 posts
Aug 14, 2017
6:00 PM
|
My statements are, of course, generalizations. If your set up is working well for you, it's right for you. In this regard, the Lone Wolf pedals are marketed for use with bullet mics. I've only tried the Octave and the Harp Break. Neither worked well for me for what I was after, but YMMV.
@Littoral: what is an HM element?
The thing that made me decide to use a pedalboard was when I accidentally kicked a loose a pedal connecting cable with my foot during a performance. At the time, I was using two pedals (between the mic and the amp) , plus a delay that was in the effects loop that was always on. Before that, I thought I had no need for a pedalboard.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 15, 2017 7:22 AM
|
SuperBee
4889 posts
Aug 14, 2017
8:00 PM
|
I've been grumbling about setting up 2 or 3 pedals every time I do it. In fact I've been limiting it to 2 mainly because I just can't be bothered setting up more at rehearsal. But this is false economy because part of rehearsal is about trying different approaches.
I've only got 4 on this board now, but no way I'd be setting them all up on the floor separately. I've mounted the power supply under the board. The CIOKS 'adam' has 4 outlets and is flat enough to sit under a pedaltrain board, and has mounting points to allow it to be bolted to the board, as I've done. I'm running 2 pedals off 1 of the 250ma outlets, leaving me a spare for when I add in the vibe.
Everything fits neatly and sits in the bag with the power lead and instrument cable.
As a result I have a lot of spare room in my harp case..
You can spend a lot of dough on this stuff. I dropped more than I really wanted to on this board, felt I really should be banging one together for a fraction of the cost, but also realised it wasn't happening and probably wasn't gonna be the best use of my time. $129 AUD for the board, bag, Velcro and some zip ties: seems expensive but probably saved me a day and that's worth quite a lot really. And now I can plug in 4 pedals as easily as 1. Much tidier and safer.
|
SuperBee
4890 posts
Aug 15, 2017
4:15 AM
|
Looked up prices today and am a bit taken aback to discover my 4-pedal version of the board, including the cable to connect to amp, would cost $1150 AUD to replace. The 6-pedal variant adds up to $1600 AUD.
this stuff is too easy to walk off with
|
hvyj
3440 posts
Aug 15, 2017
7:57 AM
|
For sure, it adds up. Before I bit the bullet and got a PB, a guitar player I was working with kept urging me to do it. After I did, I regretted not listening to him and doing it sooner. Ease of set up, tear down and transport, security of connections and better protection for the pedals.
Not long ago,I was seriously considering getting a Cioks. But all my pedals are 9v and I've been doing ok with the ONE SPOT, so I decided that if it ain't broken, no need to spend $ to fix it.
There's a peculiar phenomenon associated with PBs. It's almost like the law of gravity or supply and demand. To wit, if there is open space on your PB, it's just a matter of time before you find another pedal to fill it.
If one is using effects, though, you really need to spend time fooling around with them, experimenting to find out what they can do and what the optimum settings are. I think this is fun, but whether you enjoy it or not, you really have to spend time doing it. Then you have to tweak it when you rehearse or play live because what sounds good at home may not be dialed in to sound good when all the competing frequencies from the other instruments are happening.
I call this process "playing with the electricity" and I enjy doing it. One of the things you need to be aware of is what each pedal in the chain does to your tone when it is NOT on. Even a true bypass pedal will not uncommonly have SOME effect on your signal. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but is not always a good thing, either. You just need to be aware of what is doing what.
Do I always use a board? No. But, it seems that the musicians I gig with, the venue owners/managers who hire us and the audiences all seem to like what I do with my PB effects. So, these days I use the PB on my own gigs more often than not. But not usually on sideman gigs. For those I typically use no board or a much smaller board. Ditto for jams. But, YMMV.
I will take my primary (larger) PB out to a jam if I need to dial in a new pedal or figure out how it will sound with different settings. But, otherwise usually not.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 16, 2017 10:00 AM
|
Littoral
1520 posts
Aug 15, 2017
8:14 AM
|
I wrestled with this for a long time. My goal was to be able to plug into the PA or my amp with one simple board. I'm completely happy with my set-up now. The board is by Chemistry Design Works and is tilted to sit on to of my amp (4-10) or on the floor. I see the simple wood version isn't listed now and it was just $59. Well constructed and perfect for 4 pedals and a power supply underneath as well as a DI box. They still make metal ones but they're $100 -which I'd still recommend. I'll link to the amp top version below.
My power supply is a Lone Wolf Wolfpack and it sells for $95 which is the best deal out there.
I sat in Saturday night and set up this way: The goal is 3 minutes or less with sound check. I'd scoped out my space and was ready at the beginning of break. Handed the soundman the xlr conection and power. I said "Same levels as vocals, no effect". On the board, mic in, xlr in (DI), pedal level low, check with soundman, mic check -it lives. Done. I expect to be a little hot but with the level control on the Octave and my mic I don't really have any issues.
HVYI - HM is Greg Heumann's element he uses in the bulletini.
https://www.chemistrydesignwerks.com/holeyboards/holeyboard-evolution-amptop
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 15, 2017 8:25 AM
|
hvyj
3441 posts
Aug 15, 2017
8:54 AM
|
Interesting. I've never used a PB into a PA. I prefer a multi effects unit for going into a PA (but I haven't done that for quite a while), and a PB for going into an amp. But obviously you've come up with a one size fits all configuration.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 15, 2017 8:59 AM
|
SuperBee
4891 posts
Aug 16, 2017
5:10 AM
|
Apart from a slight problem with the switch of my delay pedal, that went quite well.
Just rehearsed 3 hours with the band, plugged the board into the little Princeton Reverb.
Dropped volume on the harp tone plus and boosted the bass a touch. Volume around 1030 and bass around 130. Treble a shade before noon.
With volume dropped on the line I was able to plug into input 1 and crank the amp volume to between 5 and 6. At that I had to dial the mic back a bit too but that was fine, it was in the high half of the range.
It was clear the amp will be fine for upcoming gigs. I won't need to worry about the 410 for now, which is quite pleasing to me.
I noticed a few times tonight I switched my delay off and lost all sound. Switching it back on brought me back, and then switching off I was ok. So I'm guessing there's a problem in the switch I'll need to take a look at. That pedal has been with me 7 years or maybe a little more, and I use it every gig, every jam, every rehearsal.
|
Littoral
1521 posts
Aug 16, 2017
6:34 AM
|
I added an MXR Carbon Copy Delay recently and I've really liked it. It's off for most blues but I'm playing so many other genres lately that I do use it a lot. Right sparkley thing it is. Also, the EP Boost pedal is the tool I use to focus and cut through the mix. There's been lots of discussion about that pedal and what it does. Indispensable for me now.
Board is 4 pedals:
Exotic EP Boost >LW Octave >LW Delay >MXR Carbon Copy Delay (to Amp or PA-via DI >xlr )
I'd like to find a distortion pedal I like but the Harp Break isn't it. The effect is digital (so is the Octave but I don't use that one for effect). I am completely amp spoiled so my expectation for any pedal modeling "tone" is unreasonable. That, and we know where tone comes from anyway.
|
hvyj
3442 posts
Aug 16, 2017
9:52 AM
|
@Littoral: Try the J Rockett Blue Note Tour series. More of a blues overdriver than a distortion, but very adjustable and may get you close to where you are trying to go especially if used in conjunction with the EP and/or Octave. I use it first in chain followed by a TC Helix Phaser with the 2 left knobs on the phaser turned all the way off, the depth turned all the way up and the mix at 11o'clock. It's not as "in your face" as the HB, and it's a more "modern" sound, but with both pedals engaged It gives me sorta a light but nicely textured quasi distortion that responds well to technique. FWIW, I use my EP as an always on preamp at the END of the chain. But on my most elaborate board I am up to 8 pedals and the EP works well to blend the final signal.
My largest board is configured: Blue Note Tour>TC Helix Phaser>EH MicroPog>Strymon Lex>TC Vortex Flanger>MXR CC Delay>TC Flashback Mini Delay>EP Booster>amp (w/on board reverb). Input is either lo-z Shure 545 Ultimate or EV PL-35 w/ in line VC through a Hosa rat tail IMT.
The Flanger is FANTASTIC. Think Sugar Blue's sound on Cold Blooded Man from the Paris Sessions. You can do so much with the TC flanger and phaser besides jet plane type sounds. I use different combinations of pedals for different sounds. I added the second delay because I had room for it and I do use it every now and then for variety. PB is a Pedaltrain Metro 24. Power is a OneSpot w/an 8 plug harness--VERY reliable. I am extremely happy with this board.
I previously tried a Harp Break on this board but it was much too gainy and did not play nice with the other pedals. The tone controls were nice, and it was very decent quality mechanically, but the effect was very primitive and too "in your face" for my taste.
@ SB: a good tech should be able to repair your switch
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 16, 2017 3:56 PM
|
Post a Message
|
