I have both and like to switch back and forth depending on the scenario. I use my CM Green Bullet when I want an aggressive sound and switch to a Shure PE585v when I want a cleaner sound. I can still cup it and get a fat breakup, it's just different. I tend to favor the stick mic when I play chromatic also. Honestly, I like the feel of the mesh grill in my hands. My newest mic is a EV 665. I very much like it for slow blues and chromatic, but it's just too heavy to use all night. I've been putting it on a stand recently which is different/fun. It has side-vents that really let you get hand effects more than some other mics. I have a bullet mic that I made by chopping the head off a Turner desk mic and cramming a 1/4" female input in the bottom. I use it at home for practice because it sounds good and is super convenient to use my guitar's cable. I don't think I'll ever find an "ultimate" mic. I find things I adore about each one. I tend to favor vintage mics, but I've really got my eye on the Bulletini from Blows Me Away.
I have a strong preference for "stick" mics. I don't like bullets for several reasons. Among other things, most bullets are one trick ponies. They have a certain sound, and you stuck with that sound or slight variations thereof for every note in every measure of every song in every set all night long. You can typically get more variety/variation with a stick mic.
Thanks for the replies. I'm finding that I may just be more comfortable with stick mics. Still, the more I play, this may change, but for right now, that's where I'm headed. I'm very interested in trying out a Shure PE585v. There's one for sale locally for $75. Not sure if that's a good price or not.
That's a decent price. Great harp mic. I think James Cotton used one. Buy it! You'll like it.
A VC is VERY useful feature on a harp mic. Besides the obvious, what a VC allows you to do is crank up your amp to its "sweet spot" for the best tone and then reduce the input signal with the VC to set performance volume and control feedback.
For example, many Fender tube amps, including my Super Reverb and my Princeton Reverb, need to be turned up to at least 6 before they "come alive". That's pretty loud and may cause feedback. So, you use the VC to attenuate or cool out the input signal for a manageable performance volume level and to eliminate feedback. Then you can also make small adjustments with the VC to play louder or softer.
If your stick mic is low impedance/balanced you will need an impedance matching transformer to go into an amp. I recommend the Hosa rat tail IMT, which is available through Lone Wolf and elsewhere.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 10, 2017 8:45 AM
That's a good price if it's in good shape. My first 585 didn't have the vol. control. I snagged it for $40. Once I got it home I took off the mesh cover and the element was all rusty and the windscreen was missing. First time I used it, the on/off switch failed. Sounded great for a minute though.
I found my 585V on eBay as NOS and it was in an unopened box from 1975. Got it for $75. Took me 4 months of waiting to find it, lol. Try it out before you buy it. If the knob is noisy or the windscreen is missing (they deteriorate), then pass or negotiate a lower price. There are always good ones on eBay, buy it now, for around $100. Was a very popular mic.
Big fan of the 585. It all depends on what amp I'm using and what type of music I'm playing. If I'm playing some hard core blues,I might lean towards a bullet,but as hvyj has stated,it is kinda a one trick pony.
I have 2 585SAV mics, and I also use an Ultimate 58 with an impedance transformer. These are the mics I use the most with diatonic and chromatic. I use the Ultimate 58 for vocals, too. I have some bullet mics (Turner 22X, Astatic Biscuit with CM element, 3 EV630s) and I use them sometimes, but prefer stick/ball mics. The SM57 is OK, and a good all purpose mic, but I would put it in with the bullets so far as my mics of choice. I like a ball mic better. ----------
I have a strong preference for "stick" mics. I don't like bullets for several reasons. Among other things, most bullets are one trick ponies. They have a certain sound, and you stuck with that sound or slight variations thereof for every note in every measure of every song in every set all night long. You can typically get more variety/variation with a stick mic."
^+1
......in addition, unless you have a harpking 6x10 (and even then you would be lucky to be heard) most every jam will definitely drown-out a bullet mic. At least with a stick mic you have a chance to cut through the mix. Jams are kryptonite to bullet mic, and just harp players in general -lol
Last Edited by CarlA on Aug 10, 2017 10:28 AM
I don't buy into the theory of a stick mic easier to cut thru because, in reality, it all depends on the musicians you're surrounded with and in many open jams, you're largely surrounded by tons of really lousy musicians often having things like crappy time, can't/won't play rhythm, don't pay attention to dynamics or just don't pay attention to anything but themselves and if you judge everything by open jams as your only band experience, it's easy to believe nonsense like that when all you've ever been surrounded by are largely lousy musicians. Stick or ball mics are NO GUARANTEE that you're gonna cut thru the mix when you're surrounded by god awful jam hacks. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I can only attest to my personal experience, and as for me sticks definitely work better in jam situations.
Not too sure how "loud" your jams get, but her where I (used) to jam out, it's not unusual for patrons to get up and leave in the middle of their meal because the stage volume literally becomes dangerous.
Once again barbequebob hit the nail on the head with his statements about the typical jam scenario
@1847 I have played through one of Greg's bullet mics that belongs to a friend, and I loved it. It had no problem cutting through with a Super Reverb or even a Blues Jr. I did find that my 585SAV could get more volume before feedback out of my own Gibson Explorer GA18T than my own bullet mics could. I never used the wooden bullet with my own amp.
These days I play music that is better suited to a clean sounding harp, and use tube amps much less frequently (I am selling a Stromberg-Carlson Signet 22 at SPAH with a 12" Weber speaker in a cab. Probably a Phillips version of an EV630 hi-z, too.)
@Joe L I have 2 585SAVs with volume controls that work, as well as a low-z 585SB that works, too, but no VC on it. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 10, 2017 12:21 PM
I definitely do... they suit my distinct-single-note jazzier style better. I usually use an Ultimate 58 or Ultimate 545 from Greg Heumann's Blows Me Away.
I ain't gonna die wondering. Got an SM 57 and RE 10 with a Heumann volume control. Just bought a Buletini and a MadDog shaker. Don't use my 80's Mexican 520D much these days.
I like the RE10 and now use the SM 57 less. I've only just received both the Buletini and MadDog so they are works in progress.
I am certainly no bullet mic conniseur, but I went through periods when I used bullet mics and I have played quite a bit through bullet mics on other player's rigs at jams or when sitting in over the years. There may be the rare exception, but in my experience, for the overwhelming most part, bullets are much more prone to feedback than stick mics.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 10, 2017 5:51 PM
I forgot to mention, I have a new Shure 545SD-LC arriving on Monday. I chose to try this mic due to the dual impedance option. I'll convert it to hi-z once I get it to use with my guitar amps.
I have a suspicion that when people say they are "cutting through" more in the mix in a hack jam scenario, they may be leaning into a stick mic that's for vocals through the PA or plugging into the PA. Yes, you will likely cut through the chaos, but that's not necessarily an ideal sound. Plugging a bullet mic into the PA is of course generally completely wrong and will not sound good at a jam. Through a guitar amp, a high impedance stick mic vs. a bullet mic may or may not feed back more or cut depending on a variety of factors—see Greg Heumann's free PDF primer on mics and amps at blowsmeaway.com for the down low. Bullet mics with vintage elements generally have a decreased dynamic range compared to most stick mics and this may be helpful—or a detrement, depending on what kind of sound you are going for. It's harder—but certainly not impossible—to get a traditional bottom/mids/crunch blues harp sound using a stick mic like a Shure SM57 or 545, but you may appreciate the other things it brings to the table. I use both, I have some nerve damage in my hands and over a long night prefer a bullet mic shape—but I have a couple of great bullets with vintage hot elements that cut through. The standard Hohner JT30 and Shure Green Bullet mics currently being manufactured are kinda crappy IMHO. I would choose a stick mic over those two any day of the week if those were my choices.
The 545SD is a great harp mic. Greg Heuman's Ultimate version with the chopped barrel and the integral volume control is top of the food chain, IMHO. I had a stock 545SD which was terrific. I sent it to Greg to be Ultimatized and it was even better.
The 545 Ultimate has been my primary mic for almost a decade.
Tastes vary and different players prefer different mics. And the 545 can be a little more difficult to grip easily than some mics But I doubt if you'll find any experienced harmonica player who would consider the 545 to be a bad choice.
FWIW, the 545 and Fender tube amps seem to have a symbiotic relationship. They generally sound pretty good together.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 11, 2017 9:02 AM
I have a 545 both in the older pistol grip model and the more current dual impedance which may have an element made in Mexico. The vintage model is definitely "hotter" as it requires less volume on my amps and may have a bit more bottom end (I admit I have never done a real side by side though).But both are really killer mics through a good tube amp. A new 545 is an excellent, super reliable choice, and as hvyj says, if you can afford it–get the Heumann version, as it will have the lighter shape and the very helpful VC rather than an on/off switch.
If wired for lo-z,the 545 is very decent sounding through a PA as well. WSonderful proximity effect. And they are VERY durable, so long as you don't try to use it to pound nails or something like that.
On a different topic, I think stick mics have superior cut because they are higher quality mics with a fuller frequency range. Also, they are generally more articulate, producing better definition of the notes--the "edges" of the notes are more distinct.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 11, 2017 9:33 AM
If wired for lo-z,the 545 is very decent sounding through a PA as well. WSonderful proximity effect. And they are VERY durable, so long as you don't try to use it to pound nails or something like that.
On a different topic, I think stick mics have superior cut because they are higher quality mics with a fuller frequency range. Also, they are generally more articulate, producing better definition of the notes--the "edges" of the notes are more distinct.
Last Edited hvyj on Aug 11, 2017 9:33 AM"
......^+1
I would agree once again on this post for stick mics
Also, like mentioned above, playing style IMO makes a huge difference between mic choices
"if you are not getting feedback your amp is not turned up enough."
Yep. And with a bullet mic, you start getting feedback at 3. My Fender tube amps don't come alive until at least 6 which is where you start to get good tone.
I suspect he probably did turn up past 3. He is reported to have tubed down one of the preamp tubes in his Super Reverb. But, most importantly, if you watch him closely, he turns off his mic using the on/off switch on the pistol grip everytime he stops playing in order to prevent feedback. He also did not stand very close to his amp.
But, yeah, I'd agree that he got pretty decent tone.
yes he did work the on / off switch... constantly. i totally agree with that.
that is one ingredient that people sometimes miss. he was turned up loud. we can probably blame the paul butterfield blues band for all loud volume at blues jams.
a weaker mic you can turn the amp up farther, nothing wrong with that i have older crystals i can turn up to 5 or 6 great sound and i still have "room to move"
if anyone can't get a nice tone out of my amp on 3 it's not the amp. my amp on 3 is... you need to turn down loud....
S/58, S/57 AND S/545 are the mic`s I`ve been using over 49 yrs.I have a bullet mic. but I never liked it.The best thing to happen to stick mics is the Bulletizer.It`s the evolution kicker for amp. harp.Good for the grab and leaves you with space for hand jive.
True story: Last night I went to listen to this black female vocalist I play sideman gigs with sometimes. Her shows are always fun. She has a couple of vids of her performances that I'm playing on which I've posted here. Anyway, it's a small venue with a very small stage. She's backed by a trio of musicians (keys, electric bass and drums) all of whom I've played with before in one context or another. This singer usually covers a broad range of styles, but this show is just purely R&B and soul music.
So, I get invited up to play the last 2 sets. It's always fun to back up this singer since she has such wonderful presence and energy on stage and I'm comfortable with the material being played. I had my Princeton in the trunk of my car, but there was no room on stage for it. The band was using a small 6 channel board with a couple of powered PA speakers, and there was an open channel. Not sure how harp friendly this little board would be, but I had no other option.
So, I pull a lo-z 545 Ultimare and an XLR cable out of my bag and the keyboard player (who was running the board) plugs me in and gives me a very decent EQ, although I did have to open the VC on the mic all the way.
The 545 mic gave me a very cool sound that fit the music that was tonally perhaps more akin to Lee Oskar than Paul Butterfield but with a little texture/character to the timbre. And on the one blues tune we wound up playing I was able to lean in to a couple of bends with a tight cup and get a little grit. The 545 is just a wonderful all around harp mic. Definitely the right tool this job and a lot of others. Works well in a variety of situations. Anyway I had a great time and I was happy with my sound. So were the singer and the rest of the band.
BTW, I personally do not like the Bulletizer, but what I've done is clamped a plastic shaft collar (which is like a ring or a disc with a hole in its middle) around the body of the mic just behind the head which makes this mic easier to grip.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 12, 2017 7:07 AM
An idea came into my head as I was reading the responses to stick mics vs bullet mics. I noticed many performers (Sammy Hagar being one example) where rather than singing into a standing mic, or holding a bullet mic (it would look awkward), or even just a regular mic, that there's a microphone harness that clips around the singer's head with the mic only an inch or two from the mouth. Simply adjust the harness so the mic is further away from the mouth giving room for the harp. And being these mics are electronic, attach the pack to your belt sending the signal to the receiver attached to the amp, giving the player room to move around if he/she desires.
For most of what I play I prefer a bullet (Astatic 200). I don't find a difference in cutting through loud players or of more feedback than stick mics though I try to play with musicians who understand music dynamics...
I have stick mics - an Electro Voice 638 and a Shure PE45 which I use for some Junior Wells style songs where I want to get a sharper tone (I saw Junior use both models); and a Shure 585A that Cotton gave me - great for vocals and a "rounder" sound than the preceding mics. Back in the late 60's/early 70's I used it 1/2 the time. Now for an occasional song or two.
They're all great mics but I prefer the feel and tone of my two Astatic 200's (smaller in the hands than a JT30, handle removed, volume control installed at the back - adjustable while playing via pinky finger, Shure CR Black Label elements).
I've played other bullets I didn't like so I think it's about the individual mic and the properties of the element rather than any bullet vs. any stick. ---------- BnT
I used to use stick mics the Shure 545, 585, PE-54, 588. The only one I periodically use is the Ultimate SM57. I like the Jt-30 and the Shure 520 feel in my hand better and also the bass response and compression of the larger elements. I feel like the weight is all at the end of stick mics and they make my left hand cramp during longer shows. The 585 in particular is tough to hold but that's just my opinion. The 585 is still a great sounding harp mic
Last Edited by MattP on Aug 17, 2017 6:43 AM
I have used several mics over the years, but I continue going back to the SM57, which I guess is my personal favorite. So "stick" is my answer.
Never tried a bulletizer. Instead I wrapped layers of black electrical tape around the metal housing of the SM57, just below the grill. It creates a "bump" with a diameter increase of about 1cm, to ensure a good grip.
@AppalachiaBlues I actually did the same thing with pressure seal tape (something something great minds...). I might have put a bit too much but it also stops the head from rotating and potentially breaking so it's not a bad strategy.
I use both -depending on the situation. For acoustic, folk, country, I generally use a 57,58,or an EV 650..for blues I use a 707 with a CM, for a little more "grit" ----------
@1847 - the King of a Mighty Good Time sounds great with any equipment. I've played through that amp with many microphones. It sounds great with anything. RJ has exquisite tone. The equipment doesn't matter. He's just great!
If we take the mic out of the equation then it is safe to say that 100 percent of the tone comes from the player. Since most of us are here because we like to hear amplified harmonica, the mic has no small part In achieving the desired effect. It can add or subtract to the overall tone. RJ no doubt has a great acoustic tone, but listen to that mic in particular, it is not an ordinary average run of the mill mic.it is an older high impedance shure, and it adds to the overall character. Perhaps a few people would not care for this coloration. but I would think the majority would agree it adds to the sound .The newer shure mic’s just don’t quite have the same oomph. That is a special microphone in my book.
Last Edited by 1847 on Aug 29, 2017 8:13 AM
I agree with Joe. R.J. Sounds great through anything. He's got great tone.
As for the stick vs bullet mic debate. Well both are great and both have their own sounds. Neither is better than the other. IAny mic, amp combo will add some degree of dirt/tonal colour to the mix but other than that we all sound how we sound. Personally these days I'm really digging my 545 into a Lone Wolf Harp Attack, then into the PA. I also like using that mic direct into the PA too. It does what I need it too. I'll use my bullet (JT30) sometimes too. Although I'm finding myself leaning more and more to the 545.
