The following is based on some answers I wrote in the beginner form. I thought it might be useful to somebody here, too.
An improviser should be able to play all the notes of each chord in a tune. That doesn't mean that you only play those notes, but you should know how whatever you play relates to the chord you're playing it over.
But how do you know what the chord tones are? Chords are made from scales. Take, for example, the major scale: do, re, mi fa, so, la, ti, do. If you want to make chords from that scale, you start on any note (which will be the root note of that chord) and then add every second note until you have as many as you want. To make a I chord you start on do, the first note in the scale, skip re, add mi, skip fa, and add so: do-mi-so. We call do the root, mi the third, and so the fifth.
To make a IV chord, start on fa (because it's the fourth note in the scale), skip so, add la, skip ti, and add do: fa-la-do. We call fa the root, la the third, and do the fifth.
To make a V chord, start on so (because it's the fifth note in the scale) skip la, add ti, skip do, and add re. We call so the root, ti the third, and re the fifth.
In blues we usually add another note, the flat seventh (b7), to each chord. We call it the b7 because it is one half step below the usual seventh note (ti) of the major scale.
In second position, the root of the I7 chord is draw 2, blow 3, blow 6 and blow 9. The 3rd of the I7 chord is draw 3, draw 7 and blow 10 half-step bend. The 5th is draw 1, draw 4 and draw 7. The b7th is draw 2 whole-step bend, draw 5 and draw 9.
The root of the IV7 chord is blow 1, blow 4, blow 7 and blow 10. The 3rd of the IV7 chord is blow 2, blow 5 and blow 8. The 5th of the IV7 chord is draw 2, blow 3, blow 6 and blow 9. The b7th of the IV7 chord is draw 3 half-step bend, 6 overblow and blow 10 whole-step bend.
The root of the V7 chord is draw 1, draw 4 and draw 78. The 3rd of the V7 chord is draw 2 half-step bend, 5 overblow and hole 9 half-step bend. The 5th of the V7 chord is draw 3 whole-step bend, draw 6 and draw 10. And, finally, the b7th of the V7 chord is blow 1, blow 4, blow 7 and blow 10.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 24, 2017 1:30 PM
Sofa laredo Or whatever Winslow just informed me that the French version of the Harmonetta uses the fixed Do system to name the notes. That would be interesting, wonder who's got one. Thanks for the theory, let's annoy each other at SPAH again--this year?
Sorry groyster, I was being sarcastic. All the responses here are from people that know whets going on.
This is some of the best information you will ever get, where are the people that can benefit the most from this? They do not chime in, not one. Why is that? yes I know there is a beginner forum.
I suppose that there are millions of places to get this kind of info on line, but when we were growing up, We would have killed for this . Why is it I hear so often people that do not get this simple concept?
There seems to be very little activity on this forum. Almost nill.
It is easy to fool yourself into thinking you are wailing away on the harmonica, when in fact you can be completely missing the target notes.
Timeistight took the time to spell it out for others, hopefully someone will take the time To work it out.
I agree that the bulk here seem to miss out on the occasional diamond left for them to pick up for free, including info in this thread! However, if just 1 or 2 folk pick up on it and improve themselves, it is all worth it. ---------- The Iceman
I'm curious as to how most people remember this stuff. I expect everyone thinks about it in a different way but just wondering what goes through your mind as you play. Do you just learn the holes for each of the I IV and V chords in 2nd position as in timeistight's original post? Or do you relate the notes of the IV chord back to the scale degree of the root key eg do you think IV chord: 4th, 6th, 1st and flat 3rd notes of the root? What about if you want to play the III chord? Do you just eventually learn all the holes for all the chords in a position? If you play in a different position do you learn a whole set of different holes for each chord or do you translate somehow. Or perhaps you see all the notes in your head laid out like a piano keyboard and picture the chords that way.
I use the following visualization in my teaching to explain the different approaches.
Imagine that the notes of, for example, the scale from which one derives the I, IV and V chords. The notes of the scale are represented by ping pong balls hanging in order of do, re, me, fa, etc - in a mobile, twisting and turning slowly. Now, you can sit underneath that mobile and look up at it and notice the relationship of all the balls (notes) to each other from that perspective. Then, you can climb above it and look down on it. Next, go over to the right and slightly below it and look.
Each time you move your orientation to view it from a different angle, you notice a different relationship of the notes to each other depending on where you are. However, it is the SAME MOBILE...it never changes, just how you view it does.
This is the same way one may approach the analysis question posed by Ollie.
The more ways you can view that mobile from more and more different perspectives, the more layers of knowledge you gain over the relationships of the notes contained therein.
So, just toss a stone out there and start from wherever it lands. Doesn't matter where you start as long as you start. Then, change your perspective slightly over and over to add layers of understanding to that basic relationship. That's how you start to learn more and gain knowledge about the theory or how to personally absorb the information and make it your own. ---------- The Iceman
@Ollie. RE: Remembering all this stuff. I'm not sure I do...lol. I haven't a clue what notes I'm playing or what note (by name) fits what change etc. I do know what notes a chord is made up of and I understand small things like that but I don't really "fit" those things into place when I play. At least not on purpose. I typically go by sounds. Much like when I'm singing. Most times I have no idea what key is being played. I just fit my voice to the song. Other than, at times, saying to the band to play the"original key." At times while singing with a piano player (piano bar) we may discuss keys but we'll work it out rather than me choosing.
The point is that once I'm singing I am able go in and out and play with the phrasing etc based on the progression and rhythm. And all the notes fit. Not by me choosing "notes" but by hearing the music and singing in tune. So I can play and ad-lib etc. So I do the same with the harp. Notes? who knows? When a song is playing and I play to it I go by sound. I hear the beat (drums and bass) and the chord changes and I just know what sounds I need from my harmonica and I go. Then I know the change is coming and I know where I want to go. I go by holes! What the notes are I generally have no clue. But that's me.
My vocal coach used to be able to name the note I was singing. "Ok, when you hit that G# I want you to..." And I'm like...what? lol. I have no clue. Just make a sound and I'll listen and copy it! I'm odd when it comes to theory. I figure theory isn't how we learn music. I think of it as, music was first then someone came up with theory to explain it. "This is how that guy is doing that." I know fire cooks my food and keeps me warm. I can light a fire and cook or keep warm. I don't need to know the science behind fire and why food gets hot and the oxygen content and all that.
(I know, I know...feel free to slap me...lol)
I think I know a good deal though just through exposure. ---------- Tommy
I don't think Mick Jaggers quality of playing has anything to do with his knowledge, or lack of, theory. It's more about how he practices, the effort he puts in, and how much weight he places on playing better. I think he probably "just plays." Meaning he only needs to get by, sort of like his guitar playing. It's all just backup for him. He can learn all the theory he can handle that doesn't mean he'll play better. Only that he'll know more about music.
I think it may have been Albert King who said: "It's not how many notes you know, it's what you do with them." ---------- Tommy
Ah Jeez. Are we headed down that road again? I like Mick's playing on a lot of stuff. Is he Little Walter, Magic Dick? Of course not. Could some non-pro members of our very own MBH forum play what he's playing as well or better? Sure. But so what? Like Dylan and other artists, for whom the harp playing wasn't the focal point, it doesn't matter. Mick serves the song in a lot of his playing, and like the Hat, I don't think it's a not knowing theory issue.
I know, I know I coulda just passed on the thread, but I really came to say thanks to Tight for the original post. The info was great.
This is s serious question. I'm always open to knowledge. I'm with groyster, more or less. I know the I-IV-V. If you give me a chord name I can tell you the notes that make up the chord, the 1st, 3rd and 5th. So "G" for example would be G-B and and D. In a 12 bar blues/I IV V I, it would be G-C and D. I understand small things like that. But actually finding these actual notes by name on a harp? No way. But I do know what hole to blow (which is basically a "note") during the appropriate change. Why is it so important to actually know the note by name? I Seriously, for my own education, ask why? I mean if you can do something why is it important to know what it's called if you're not teaching or writing music or even reading music? Especially for blues. Playing classical music at a symphony hall is one thing but jamming and playing blues or improv to a song (blues or rock). Why? Again, I ask seriously, not to be argumentative. I need the other side of the argument. Thanks :)
Side note: Actually it isn't that difficult to name notes (holes) on the C harp just from exposure to it. Blow notes are just the 1st 3rd and 5th straight across (but not used much in 2nd pos). And I imagine thats the same on every key harp. The draw holes? That's a little more difficult, Maybe the first 5 draw holes on a C but all 12 harp keys? no way.
Since all the diatonic richter tuned harmonicas all have the same relationships between the holes/notes and one can change the key by switching harmonicas, one doesn't need extensive education in music theory and note names in order to play pretty darn impressively.
Many teachers have their students work off a "C" harmonica and learn the notes here and suggest that the student treat any key harmonica the same, imagining it to always be key of C and this works just fine - up to a point.
That point is a high bar that some like to learn to poll vault over while many are happy to just keep walking under it to get where they want to go.
So, if you are a serious musician who also plays harmonica, you may want to venture deeper into music theory/actual notes - will help with potential studio work and open different doors to your talents.
One example of someone straddling that fine line is Charlie Musselwhite, who is very innovative in finding unique and interesting approaches to positional playing, has used at least one or two special tuned harmonicas but doesn't really know theory or why some of what does works so well. He relies on his ears. I've dialogued with him over the years about this stuff so understand where he is coming from in regards to how he approaches his instrument. He proves that one can get quite far in this venture without the intellectual theory knowledge available.
After all, in the end isn't it our "ears" that determine what works and what doesn't? ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 28, 2017 6:12 AM
1847- What's up with your diagram of the C harp notes. 7 half steps on the 6 blow?!!!
I think most other instrument players think in note names. It's the way they learned their instrument. We harp players never needed to learn note names to play. I think it's easier to think in scale degrees on the harp.As long as you're in the same position,it doesn't change on a different key harp. If I need to know a note name,I open my Seydel Harp Keyfinder app on my phone. It's an indispensable tool for me.
@Tuckster, those must be overblows. A lot of times, when I am playing chromatic, I get lost and want to determine where I am on the instrument. Knowing the letter names of the notes helps a great deal. And just in terms of actually making music, knowing what you are doing in more musical terms sounds like a good idea to me. It drives me nuts when folks tell me, "Oh, I don't get in to all that technical stuff."
I mean, I literally lose my mind--the medical bills are staggering.
I like the Nashville number system approach, or David Barrett's idea of diatonic harmonicas as transposing instruments. Having played Bb clarinet as a kid, I am familiar with playing a phrase in one key on sheet music that is really music in a different key.
I like this post for the information available. Somewhere I have a chart like the note chart posted above that shows chords on a C harmonica. I got the chart online, and if I find it, I will post it. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 28, 2017 7:40 AM
The chromatic is a different beast. I think in both note names and scale degrees on the chrom. Since I've been going to a harp teacher,I've made a lot of progress on music theory. I'm pretty comfortable with it,but not like a Julliard grad. There was time when somebody would say "it starts on the 5" and I'd be utterly terrified.
For example, as stated above, the 3rd is a more important note for defining the chord than the root.
In general, the root and fifth are not as important as the 3rd and 7th. Of course root is important as the conceptual "beginning" and "end note" of a linear idea.
In chords, it is the 3rd and 7th that define the differences. In piano comping for jazz, left hand will often play the 3rd and the 7th which is enough for that chord's basic "color" - root usually suggested by the bass player and his note choices.
With 3rd and 7th scale degrees in left hand piano comping, if is major fun to add one or two other notes to this interval to create a chord cluster. Great other notes choices can be pulled from the upper extension notes of the chord - 9th, 11th, 13th.
Once of my go to left hand seventh chord voicings would be spelled out as 3rd, 13th (down an octave), 7th and 9th. You can use either major or minor 3rd as well as either major or minor 7th.
------------ The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 28, 2017 9:23 AM
@ 1847 Just a note (haha see what I did there?) I wasn't asking a question when I mentioned the draw notes. I was just making a comment on things I can remember vs things I'll never remember. ---------- Tommy
Brilliant post. Iceman. I mean the one time stamped 6:10. I've have never heard it articulated better how learning theory should be viewed by an aspiring harp player. That's the way to look at it, right there. Next time the "do we need to learn theory?" question/thread raises it's head, I'm cutting and pasting that in (with attribution of course). Oh yeah, and loved the Musselwhite take too.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jul 28, 2017 9:52 AM
Sweet Virginia is real nice. I've always loved that little bit of tasty harp on that song. I've heard good recorded stuff from Mick as well as hearing some awful live stuff.
But I find it a bit scary, or maybe depressing is a better word, when people put him and others like him, down. That leaves me thinking that if that's the case and he, or those like him, are so "bad" then I must really suck. Then I have to reel myself in and get back down to earth and remember that I'm not trying to be the next Little Walter. I'm just trying to have fun and entertain myself.
I think if I were in a bar watching a band and someone got up and played with the skill of Mick, I'd probably say "hey, that guy on the harp is pretty good huh?" I think he does ok for what he is trying to do. ---------- Tommy
tommy, you sing well. i am jealous. i can't sing so well, but i don't let that stop me.
no one expects anyone to sound like little walter, however, if you play the notes you are singing, you and anyone else will sound awesome.
so what are those notes?.. timeastight has pointed them out. if you have a good ear then no theory is necessary. just play the notes you are singing.
often times you will hear a great guitar player, and if you ask he will tell you, he spent 10 thousand hours learning where to put his fingers and developing a touch.
it use to bother me when on occasion some of the better musicians did not want me to sit in on their set. i would dismiss it ... they are just unfriendly stuck up snobs. no, they just put in the effort to sound great, anyone who wants to play with great musicians needs to put in the same effort.
My harp playing is funny. I can post a video of me playing a song that I sat down and learned and I can even sit down and probably play a song ala Paul Butterfield. In other words, not playing it exactly like the original but capturing the sound of it and improvising. But if I actually play along to a blues backing track or if I tried to play with a band or just "play the harp" for a few minutes making stuff up. I have nothing. No riffs or licks, nothing interesting nothing experienced sounding. My playing is weird. But I'm working on it. I was away from the harp for 5 years but I have a new plan. Time will tell I guess.
EDIT: For 1847 I forgot to add. Not to change the theme of the thread but I hear the phrase "I can't sing" quite often. Wrong! Unless you have a medical issue or something similar, perhaps from birth, preventing proper use of your vocal chords etc then you can sing. You just don't know how. Your hearing is fine because you play music already. The voice, vocal folds (chords) is another instrument just like any other. Anyone can sing they just need the time and practice to learn the instrument and how to get the desired sound. Just like any other instrument.
Bridging the gap from learning "licks" and transcribing other's solos to self creativity is not really a gaping chasm - much more like a ridge hopping. However, one does need to work with a good teacher in order to make the transfer smooth and easily. Unfortunately, not too many music teachers out there in the diatonic world have thought much about this nor venture into creative territory (as many of them are themselves less creative and more cut and paste players as well).
A simplified way to approach this is to study BB King. Now that all you intermediate players definitely, by now, should "own" that blues scale - those 6 note choices -, listen to how BB has made a life long career with just these 6 (mostly - not completely only these 6, but I think you get the idea).
By starting simply, one can begin to understand how note choices can be used to choose notes to create an emotional impact. It's a great place to start, anyways. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 30, 2017 8:36 AM
Re: Mick Jagger I like his harp playing on the earlier Stones studio albums. That new one though... If they were original bluesy songs by the Stones it might be OK,but when you cover LW or any of the other classic harp players-you better bring it-and Mick does not.
