WinslowYerxa
1384 posts
Jul 16, 2017
11:59 AM
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@1847 - I've removed the embed wrapper from around the link to "Cup of Wine." Sorry, I forgot that the embed code behaves that way for some users.
As to tmf's pop quiz, yes the track is in C# (or Db). It's not a C harp because the C# minor 6 chord he plays at 2:45 isn't playable on a C chromatic. It would be playable on a Bb (10th position) or B (3rd position) chromatic, though.
So which is it? Well, a further clue is something he does several times, which is to use slide bumps to twiddle between F# and G (4th and flat 5th scale degrees). Easy on a B (Hole 5 blow, just bump on the slide), fussy and choppy on a Bb (also Hole 5, but slide-in blow to slide-out draw). So, despite the relative rarity of B chromatics, that's my take.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
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tmf714
3078 posts
Jul 16, 2017
12:28 PM
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Little Charlie is playing in D flat-Rick is using a B flat chrome with the lever depressed for most of the song.
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WinslowYerxa
1385 posts
Jul 16, 2017
12:44 PM
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Why would he need to keep the slide pressed in? C-sharp (same as D-flat, just spelled differently) is third position on a B harp. Holding the slide in would put most of his playing a semitone too high for the key.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
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dougharps
1499 posts
Jul 16, 2017
1:32 PM
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Winslow, I don't think that tmf714 accepted or got your observation about slide bumps on a B vs. Bb w/button-in to get the F# to G bit you mentioned.
He seems to still be assuming a Bb chromatic with the button in, the more choppy option for that momentary note that you mentioned above in support of a B chromatic as your choice as opposed to a Bb w/button-in.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 16, 2017 1:33 PM
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1847
4282 posts
Jul 16, 2017
1:38 PM
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yes Bb with the button in releasing to get those notes.
just a guess.
can't find my Bb chrome
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1847
4283 posts
Jul 16, 2017
1:40 PM
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i would bet rick owns a C chrome and a Bb.
i doubt he would have other keys.....
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Last Edited by 1847 on Jul 16, 2017 1:40 PM
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tmf714
3079 posts
Jul 16, 2017
1:43 PM
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Yep- B flat with the button in-I own F,Bb C and A chromatics.
It plays well in third with the button in
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WinslowYerxa
1387 posts
Jul 16, 2017
2:01 PM
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Most of it will play on a Bb. EXCEPT for his frequent move that goes F#-G-F#.
This move is awkward on a Bb:
F#: Blow 3, slide in
G: Draw 3, slide out
F#: Blow 3, slide in
That's going to sound choppy on a Bb, and is inconvenient to play.
However, on a B chromatic that same move goes:
F#: Blow 3, slide out
G: Blow 3. slide in
F#: Blow 3 , slide out
This is what I call a slide bump, and its one of those tell-tale moves on chromatic that can help you figure out the key of the instrument used.
In this case, that slide bump (which he plays several times) points to a chromatic in B.
By the way, isn't it Rick Estrin, and not Little Charlie Baty, playing chromatic on that tune? Charlie is actually a pretty good harmonica player, but this sounds like Rick.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 17, 2017 5:22 PM
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1847
4285 posts
Jul 16, 2017
2:03 PM
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does the type of chrome he plays available in B from hohner?
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dougharps
1500 posts
Jul 16, 2017
2:14 PM
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Some serious key of C chromatic players allow themselves a B for occasional use to smooth out material difficult on a C. I have 8 keys and use the Bb with button in as needed. However, when Winslow notes an F# to G button push ornament that would be awkward to play smoothly, I believe him.
Hering combo in B
Hohner 270 in B
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Doug S.
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1847
4286 posts
Jul 16, 2017
2:24 PM
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winslow is a heavyweight, no doubt about it .. much respect.
rick is a blues player... hohner does not give harps out for free.
most of us are to cheap to buy a diatonic in B .....much less a chrome.
just dont see that happening.
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tmf714
3080 posts
Jul 16, 2017
3:33 PM
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Charlie is playing guitar/the song is the key of D flat.
With the slide in a Bb chromatic scale would be as follows:
Draw, Slide In Db E Ab Bb Db E Ab Bb Db E Ab C
Third position with slide in -mostly draw notes-except for the occasional instances where you can hear Rick release the button.
B chromatic scale with slide in:
Draw, Slide In D F A B D F A B D F A C#
As you can see-there is no D b here-so where do you get your root note from?
The scale for a B chromatic does not contain a Db at all-slide in or out-blow or draw.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jul 16, 2017 3:33 PM
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tmf714
3081 posts
Jul 16, 2017
3:40 PM
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Yes-the 270 is 200.00 Rick I am sure gets a discount-And yes-they do make it in the key of B.
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1847
4288 posts
Jul 16, 2017
3:48 PM
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Draw, Slide In D F A B D F A B D F A C#
is that a Db all the way to the right?
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WinslowYerxa
1388 posts
Jul 16, 2017
5:30 PM
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The note Db and the note C# are the same note, just spelled differently.
So let's call the key C#.
Why?
Because that will make it easier to investigate how you could use a B chromatic.
Here is the B major scale: B C# D# E F# G# A# B
Note that C# is a note in that scale, and it is present on a chromatic harmonica in the key of B. It is found in Draw 1, 5, and 9, and in 12 draw with the slide in.
Here are the draw notes on a B chromatic:
C# E G# A#
This pattern repeats three times over 12 holes.
Of these notes, C# E G# from a C# minor chord. A# is the added 6th in a minor 6th chord.
This is the home chord for third position. It's also the chord that Rick plays at 2:45, which I mentioned before.
In other words, Rick is playing in C# minor on a B chromatic - third position.
The blow notes, by the way, are B D# F# B (again repeating a total of three times over 12 holes, with side-by-side double B's wherever two octaves meet).
When rick plays that slide bump I mentioned, he moves from the F# in Blow 3 to the slide-in Blow 3 (raising it to from F# to G) and back again. You can't do that smoothly or easily on a Bb chromatic, as I detailed above.
Hohner has made chromatics in B off and on over the years. Often music stores would have the odd keys and not sell them, and players could pick them up fairly cheap (Rod Piazza talked about this at some length in an interview some years back).
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 16, 2017 5:31 PM
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Gnarly
2263 posts
Jul 16, 2017
8:55 PM
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I have a Hering in B that I acquired from a local blues player (he doesn't play much chrom) who had it set up for flat slide and didn't even know it!
I replaced all the valves and now it plays great--
I'm not using keyed chromatics much anymore, but who knows what the future brings.
If I know I'm gonna play blues in F#, it would be worth the trouble--I guess if Tracy Chapman calls me up, I'm covered!
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JSalow
21 posts
Jul 17, 2017
4:36 PM
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Nevermind, I missed the entire discussion on the second page. Ignore.
Last Edited by JSalow on Jul 17, 2017 4:38 PM
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Chromeo
1 post
Jul 29, 2018
10:58 AM
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I find the whole discussion odd (not offensive, just don't relate) in that I don't use the theory of positions at all. I have been playing C chromatic for over 50 years and play blues very comfortably in C, D, E, F, G, and A in particular and have worked out the other keys to various degrees. I have just learned intuitively to know where I am. In the beginning I made sure I could at least use the tonic, and minor 3rd, 5th and 7th to find my way, but mainly I just played along with records until I didn't have to think about it. My tone is more influenced by guitar players in that I wanted that sharp Otis Rush-Freddy King attack that I didn't feel I could get by tongue blocking, so I pretty much use my tongue in the roof of my mouth to cut off air quickly and get a sharp attack. I'm thinking that since I don't see that method I may do a little Youtube tutorial (delusions of grandeur notwithstanding).
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jbone
2647 posts
Jul 29, 2018
7:14 PM
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This is all very far above my pay grade. BUT. I really like chromatic and learned quite a bit in 3rd over the last 15 years. Very blues/swing based. Guys like Cotton, George Smith, Carey Bell, and a host of others have inspired me. I use a lower octave Hering in C, and G and D Suzuki SCX48's. The possibilities even without using 1/2 notes ie slide in have been a great addition to my trick bag.
In the past couple or 3 years I've "expanded" or maybe gone back more to basics, in that I'm doing parts on some roots rock and other material we are playing in the duo, in 1st position.
Having no real musical schooling and being therefore self taught, I know I am limited in some ways. At 63 I doubt I'll dive into the minutiae it would take to be a fluent trained "right" player. But I am happy to do what I can and if it pleases me, and an audience, I think I'm doing well.
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jbone
2648 posts
Jul 29, 2018
7:14 PM
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This is all very far above my pay grade. BUT. I really like chromatic and learned quite a bit in 3rd over the last 15 years. Very blues/swing based. Guys like Cotton, George Smith, Carey Bell, and a host of others have inspired me. I use a lower octave Hering in C, and G and D Suzuki SCX48's. The possibilities even without using 1/2 notes ie slide in have been a great addition to my trick bag.
In the past couple or 3 years I've "expanded" or maybe gone back more to basics, in that I'm doing parts on some roots rock and other material we are playing in the duo, in 1st position.
Having no real musical schooling and being therefore self taught, I know I am limited in some ways. At 63 I doubt I'll dive into the minutiae it would take to be a fluent trained "right" player. But I am happy to do what I can and if it pleases me, and an audience, I think I'm doing well.
----------
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
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jbone
2649 posts
Jul 29, 2018
7:15 PM
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This is all very far above my pay grade. BUT. I really like chromatic and learned quite a bit in 3rd over the last 15 years. Very blues/swing based. Guys like Cotton, George Smith, Carey Bell, and a host of others have inspired me. I use a lower octave Hering in C, and G and D Suzuki SCX48's. The possibilities even without using 1/2 notes ie slide in have been a great addition to my trick bag.
In the past couple or 3 years I've "expanded" or maybe gone back more to basics, in that I'm doing parts on some roots rock and other material we are playing in the duo, in 1st position.
Having no real musical schooling and being therefore self taught, I know I am limited in some ways. At 63 I doubt I'll dive into the minutiae it would take to be a fluent trained "right" player. But I am happy to do what I can and if it pleases me, and an audience, I think I'm doing well.
----------
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
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