as does David L. Burge, who offers a Perfect Pitch Course (as well as a very valuable relative pitch course that I completed).
http://www.perfectpitch.com/chapter1.htm
I also began his Perfect Pitch Course, understood the basics enough to start with F# (his beginning "color hearing" pitch) and then proceeded to train myself slowly over a few years using my own references - granted, as a highly regarded piano tech, I had developed an understanding of how to hear this on my own. I didn't complete Dave's Perfect Pitch Course, but arrived at the mountain top using my own path.
All of this was learned by me age 30 and up...didn't happen over night, but was well worth the patience involved.
I've found myself disagreeing with a few "pundits" over my life so far - where others have stated "You can't", I decided for myself that "I can". That's actually half the battle right there.
Do the impossible. It is possible. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 25, 2017 2:25 PM
This presentation, though fascinating, contains more than a few grains of adamantine my-way-or-the-highwayism for my taste. The brain, nervous system, neuroplasticity, and how people learn are far from definitively explored territories. It's one thing to say 99.9% of people can't or won't ever develope perfect pitch, it's another thing to insist, based on one's limited knowledge, that no adult human being on the planet could ever develope perfect pitch because "it's impossible."
Researchers have been trying to teach absolute pitch ability in laboratory settings for more than a century,[67] and various commercial absolute-pitch training courses have been offered to the public since the early 1900s.[68] However, no adult has ever been documented to have acquired absolute listening ability,[69] because all adults who have been formally tested after AP training have failed to demonstrate "an unqualified level of accuracy... comparable to that of AP possessors".[70]
The numbers in square brackets refer to footnoted reference on the Wikipedia page.
I'm not a big fan of the c word "can't", myself. Though the use of the other c word, our friends across have turned into a veritable artform over the centuries..
I've always been able to sing a note back if you play it for me. I learned, well after 30, how to find intervals with pretty good success rate on harmonica. All perfect pitch is is matching that information with the names of notes. I'm a bit ADHD so sitting down and really working on that doesn't work for me, but I've improved immensely at figuring out which key harmonica to grab first. Still not perfect, but at that point it's just a matter of refining the skill.
Is it easier to learn it as a kid? Probably, but I'm positive there is a fairly large subset of the population that could, if they devoted enough time to it, learn perfect pitch at any age.
nacoran: Perfect pitch is a bit more than what you describe above...
With perfect pitch, you can sing the pitch of any note without any reference point - pulling it out of thin air, so to speak.
Also, when listening to music, you can tell what key the music is in. The most fun is that, as you listen to a solo, you can visualize the notes being played in your mind's eye. Not just the relative pitches to each other, but the actual notes. ---------- The Iceman
I'm with Iceman on this one. I have perfect pitch, but not sure when I developed it. Didn't start playing harp until I was 13, and was probably in my late teens when I realized that I could tell what key a song was in, and then realized I could correctly identify single notes played on the piano. I can also sing any note of my choosing, without any reference, or if I decide I want to sing in the key of Bb for example, I can. I assume this ability came from years of playing with the church band, and having to play through a box full of harps on each song to find the right key. To me, each key has a certain mood or feel, and distinguishing one key from another is much like the ability to recognize a person speaking by the sound of their voice.
There's a young man at my church (about 22 years old) who also has perfect pitch, and he only plays drums. He says he doesn't know how he learned it, but can easily and accurately identify single notes on the piano or other instruments. He says kinda the same thing as I do, likening it to identifying voices.
It may be possible that this ability comes more natural for some... perhaps. However, I believe that anyone can learn it, even adults. Perhaps these researchers should take up harmonica playing. :)
Last Edited by Todd Parrott on Jun 25, 2017 8:38 PM
Before you disagree with Rick Beato you might want to check out his other vids. His kids have perfect pitch. My father had it I don't. I sat in conducting class with guys on each side of me that had perfect pitch but I was much better at conducting than they were.
Rick Beato is an incredible music theorist so I would check him out. ----------
A very interesting argument. But my big take away is, so what? Is there anything in music that someone would not be able to accomplish solely because they didn't have perfect pitch? Write and perform a hit song? Be an awesome blues/jazz/rock/pop performer? Be a music producer or sound engineer?
Everytime I read about this phenomena, it always strikes me as more analogous to a parlor trick than anything else, and not even a particularly interesting one at that. I'd rather spend five minutes talking to a great songwriter about what they were thinking when they came up with a particular melody, chord progression, riff, hook or set of lyrics, than the equivalent amount of time watching somebody recite back what notes are being played in real time.
There's also this matter of what appears to be semantics in the definition of AP. In the video he makes the analogy to speech, but then admits that adults can learn a second language, yet qualifies that accomplishment by terming it as acquiring a "foreign" language. Well if you can communicate perfectly in that language, what's the difference? Later in the video, he says by studying relative pitch adults can develop something close to perfect pitch but not quite. Isn't this a distinction without a difference? How do you even test it? How can it be proven at what point in life somebody "acquired" that ability, if the test is performed on an adult? If someone gets 97% correct on a test does this mean they don't have perfect pitch? Does it mean they do but had a bad day? Does it mean they tried to acquire it as an adult and got close but failed, because only kids can acquire it? It would seem to me that the most that can be said for sure is that some children and some adults do possess this ability.
Hey, if studying tonalities gets you closer to your musical goals, then by all means go for it. If you want to steer your kid in a musical direction by all means serve a little Mozart with his/her cornflakes. But all I know is when I'm at a party and the topic turns musical, and some random party guest feels it necessary to inform the group that he/she has perfect pitch, they usually turn out to be the least interesting person in the room.
ADDENDUM: This question of if/when one can acquire absolute pitch seemed so interesting to me I decided to check out the wikipedia link timeistight provided and read one of the source materials footnoted entitled: The Enigma of Absolute Pitch, which appeared in Acoustics Today in 2006. Excellent piece that lends a lot of credence to the arguments put forth in the video. His analogy to language is a lot stronger than I had thought (his term "foreign" language that adults learn really meant foreign accented language). In summary, I'd say he probably should have said "extremely difficult" rather then impossible for adults, but otherwise I'd agree with him. Oh and BTW, the bar for being considered as having absolute pitch was 85% correct identification of the tones played in the study that was performed. A lot lower than I expected.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jun 26, 2017 2:03 PM
Perfect pitch is more than a parlor trick. Mostly, those on the outside of this ability looking inwards label it as such.
It can be learned...the benefits may be discovered on the path to perfect pitch, even if you don't achieve it 100%.
Those that pursue it will find everything they do musically - listening as well as playing - to improve, especially your understanding of what is going on.
I'm not right on 100% of the time, because I believe this is one of those ventures that exist outside of a laboratory - closer to the realm of Zen and a belief system along with a healthy dose of personal confidence.
I like Todd's description of recognizing someone's voice comparison. Different pitches, to me now, illicit an inner eye/ear color, ranging from pure white (key of "C") to blood red (Key of F#) and all shades in between, as well as an attachment to an emotional feeling (key of D seems to unfold like sunlight breaking through the clouds, for instance).
Stuff like perfect pitch, relative pitch, music theory, etc, are not required to play and enjoy music, and many do just fine without them. However, those that are just a little more curious, a little more inspired, a little more energetic will find a lot of unexpected benefit to venture in this direction. ---------- The Iceman
TRUE STORY: I sometimes get to play with a young (still in college) keyboard player of immense talent, who, among other attributes has an excellent ear. I don't know whether he has perfect pitch, but one of the things he does for amusement is interesting. If we are playing in a bar or restaurant and someone drops a glass or plate that breakss, if we are not actually playing at the time, he will invariably play a note on his piano that corresponds exactly to the pitch made by the breaking glass or plate.
"Is there anything in music that someone would not be able to accomplish solely because they didn't have perfect pitch? Write and perform a hit song? Be an awesome blues/jazz/rock/pop performer? Be a music producer or sound engineer?"
Nah, not really. But it helps me from having to ask what key we're in, or search through a box full of harps. And if there's an unexpected key change mid-song, I can adapt quickly. I don't think it makes me superior to anyone, and I rarely mention it. I don't even know how or when I developed it.
But I will say this; to me, every key does have a certain mood or feeling to it, and resonates a certain way with me. Iceman describes D as "sunlight breaking through the clouds." Even without perfect pitch, anyone can study keys, and especially if you're a songwriter, selecting the key of a song can make a big difference in the type of emotion it evokes. I personally believe that key selection has played a part (even if a small one) in certain songs becoming hits. For example:
Sarah McLachlan - In The Arms Of An Angel
This song is in Db. Change it to C or D and it loses some of its somber feeling.
The Four Tops - I'll Be There
Verses are in F#(Gb), and chorus is in Ebm. Move it up or down a half step and it just doesn't grab you the same way.
Stevie Wonder - Superstition
The Key of Eb is the perfect key for this song. Same thing as the above examples - you can change the key but it just isn't quite the same outside of Eb - loses some feeling. Stevie Wonder, in my opinion, is the greatest example of someone who does a great job with key selection. I don't know if he has perfect pitch, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does. I think we'd all agree that he's very much in touch with music.
I realize all these examples are sharp/flat keys, but by the same token, take a classic rock song in the key of A, and move it to Bb. The key of A has more of a bite to my ears, while Bb is more "happy" sounding.
Last Edited by Todd Parrott on Jun 26, 2017 1:41 PM
I studied piano with the legendary Howard Lucas in Detroit, MI. He used to amaze me by calling out notes in clusters that I would play....even "nonsense" chords - just random notes in clusters. I thought it was magic.
Then, I took the path of learning to listen inside chords (relative pitch wise) and developed this ability as well, although I do admit where Howard would instantly call out the notes, it takes me a bit longer to get the sound inside my head for analysis.
Later, when perfect pitch began to emerge, this chord cluster note recognition came a little easier, but I'm still not as fast as Howard.
Jeff Beck would play the song in "E", as that is a 'guitar key' that works with the instrument organically. I do not believe he played on Stevie's original recording. I never heard him play drums, either.
Stevie playing the song in "E" would lose something, as would Jeff Beck playing it in Eb, unless he tuned his guitar down 1/2 step to take advantage of those tasty open string sounds. ---------- The Iceman
Very cool! Yes, it's in E, though a tiny bit sharp (not that it was recorded that way - this happens with the file sometimes due to a number of factors).
I think this does add something - I think it's cool sounding on guitar in E, not as funky as Eb to my ears, but still cool! My point of my last post was that this is how my ears perceive and differentiate one key from another. (Not to be taken as the gospel truth.) It would be cool to hear how this would have sounded had they tuned the guitar down a half-step and played it in Eb. Didn't Stevie Ray Vaughn tune down like this?
Edit: Iceman and I must have been posting at the same time. :)
Last Edited by Todd Parrott on Jun 26, 2017 12:53 PM
that song was written for jeff beck.... he is not a drummer but that is how this song came about, with him on drums.
i am also curious why he did not record it in Eb. very easy to tune down a half step pretty sure he has done that on occasion. maybe it was easier for the vocalist.
1847 is correct again! (from widipedia) Jeff Beck was an admirer of Wonder's music, and Wonder was informed of this prior to the Talking Book album sessions. Though at this point he was virtually playing all of the instruments on his songs by himself, Wonder still preferred to let other guitarists play on his records, and he liked the idea of a collaboration with Beck, a star-in-the-making guitarist. An agreement was quickly made for Beck to become involved in the sessions that became the Talking Book album, in return for Wonder writing him a song. In between the album sessions, Beck came up with the opening drum beat. When Wonder heard the beat being played, he told Beck to keep playing while he improvised over the top of it. Wonder ended up improvising most of the song, including the riff, on the spot. In addition to the opening drum beat, Beck, together with Wonder, created the first rough demo for the song later that same day.[5][6] After finishing the lyrics, arrangement, production and recording of the song, Wonder decided that he would allow Beck to record "Superstition" as part of their agreement. Originally, the plan was for Beck to release his version of the song first, with his newly formed power trio Beck, Bogert & Appice. However, due to the combination of the trio's debut album getting delayed and Motown CEO Berry Gordy's prediction that "Superstition" would be a huge hit and greatly increase the sales of Talking Book, Wonder ended up releasing the song as the Talking Book lead single months ahead of Beck's version.[7] ---------- The Iceman
Oscar Peterson, Andre Previn, Nat Cole, Sonny Clark, Mary Lou williams, Bob James, and Mike Garson all have it or had it.
Charlie parker, Bill Evans, John Coltrane, and Miles Davis didn't have it, as far as i know. and you certainly can't get any better than those guys. so i guess there is hope for the rest of us.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 26, 2017 3:03 PM
According to multiple biographies about Miles Davis, he used to sit and watch (with friends) Charlie Parker play in the early days. It was written that Miles and his friends would challenge each other by tossing a coin up and when it hit the table, they would have to call out the note that Charlie Parker was playing at that exact moment. If this isn't a suggestion of perfect pitch, or at least a perfect pitch exercise, I don't know what is. ---------- The Iceman
I only know that because it is a top ten….. Desert island favorite. Superstition is my least favorite track on that record, but it is easy to play on harmonica. And it is the cut everyone plays. If you have a few minutes listen to this cover of a Curtis Mayfield song.....Love the vocal harmonies.
"According to multiple biographies about Miles Davis, he used to sit and watch (with friends) Charlie Parker play in the early days. It was written that Miles and his friends would challenge each other by tossing a coin up and when it hit the table, they would have to call out the note that Charlie Parker was playing at that exact moment. If this isn't a suggestion of perfect pitch, or at least a perfect pitch exercise, I don't know what is."
Given that Davis and his musician friends would know the key and chord structure of the tunes Parker was playing, it sounds more like a relative pitch exercise to me, although Davis -- who had perfect pitch, I believe -- would have an advantage in the game.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jun 26, 2017 3:43 PM
Miles and gang would also do the same if the phone rang or a bottle clanged somewhere in the club. It was a fun challenge between them and it exercised their hearing muscles, so I still maintain it was more a perfect pitch exercise than one of relative pitch.
Even knowing the key/chord structure of a song, if you know Charlie Parker's solos, he did use upper extensions and also could take it "out" when the mood moved him. (take it "out" means working outside of the key/chord structure).
Relative pitch is more for recognizing intervals and scale degrees, recognizing chord inversions and getting inside chord voicings/clusters. It can be learned totally outside of knowing what key, as the relationships between notes is not tied to any one key. It is universal. ---------- The Iceman
Probably most of them to some degree. It depends on your definition of perfect. Words like perfect and absolute have always irritated me. Nobody has perfect pitch. Most of the people I've tested who claim to have perfect pitch, folks who can instantly identify a note without reference, couldn't tell you within ten cents either way if the note is sharp or flat. Some of them get very p!ssy, claiming that their idea of perfect pitch is perfection. I've never seen a satisfactory definition of perfect pitch or much agreement on what it is, making any sort of scientific study difficult at best. The history of pitch is kind of funny all by itself. As far as I can tell, A 440 made the arithmetic easy so it was blessed by the king. The BSO tunes to 442. There are few people who can tell the difference. I'd probably be one of them if I didn't view perfect pitch as an affliction and drink lots of tuning fluid.
Even today there are some universities around the world that teach their students that absolute pitch can't be learned. You're either born with it or not. Personally, I know this to be a completely false statement considering I learned this skill in my teens.
So what exactly is absolute pitch (also known as perfect pitch)? It is the ability to hear a musical note or chord and name it.
I predict that in the future universities will start to wake up to the fact that this is a skill that can be taught, just like language and art. Until then there will always be people that don't try to understand it. Instead they simply dismiss it as a genetic defect. I guess the saying "People criticize what they don't understand", applies to absolute pitch.
To me I can't help but laugh at all this nonsense. And hopefully since you're reading this then you also know that absolute pitch is a skill that can be learned.
That brings me to relative pitch. So what is that? Simply put, it is the ability to hear and comprehend the relationship between one note and another. In other words, a musical interval. For example, a perfect 5th is an interval.
Now here is the funny thing, relative pitch is usually taught in universities... So at least they got something right!
Born With It: Leonard Bernstein, Stevie Wonder, Julie Andrews, Ludwig van Beethoven, Celine Dion, Ella Fitzgerald, Vladimir Horowitz, Michael Jackson, Yo-Yo Ma, Barbra Streisand, Brian Wilson, Frank Sinatra, Steve Vai, Shakira, Yanni, Paul Shaffer
And Those Without: Neil Young, Donald Fagen (Steely Dan), Joni Mitchell, k.d. lang, Gwen Stefani, Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Johannes Brahms, Igor Stravinsky, Richard Wagner
In a way, I have to agree with the guy in the videos regarding an adult learning perfect pitch. I view it as teaching an old dog a new trick. However, it can be achieved but at a more difficult pace. By this I mean a child doesn't have the mind of an adult. An adult has tons of issues in their minds such as paying the bills, providing for the family, etc. A child doesn't have a thousand things they're thinking of all at the same time, so developing perfect pitch is a more natural thing to pick up and retain in their minds.
"With perfect pitch, you can sing the pitch of any note without any reference point - pulling it out of thin air, so to speak.
Also, when listening to music, you can tell what key the music is in. The most fun is that, as you listen to a solo, you can visualize the notes being played in your mind's eye. Not just the relative pitches to each other, but the actual notes." Iceman
I'm only claiming to have fairly decent relative pitch, but relative pitch, but the longer I've been playing the more likely I seem to have become at picking up the right harmonica on the first try. I usually start singing songs in the 'right' key and can usually tell when a band is playing a cover in a key different than the original. I can't put a name to a note automatically, but being able to grab the right key and then play the right note is a fairly similar skill. I certainly can't do it across multiple instruments though, like someone with true perfect pitch can. I can sort of do it with voice and harp with simple melodies. The point though is that those are the building block skills of perfect pitch and they seem to be getting better for me as I get older and play more. At the rate I'm going I don't expect to get there, but I'm not sold that with the right type of training it's just something you can't learn as an adult. Easier as a kid, easier if you come from a culture that speaks a tonal language, easier if you have lots of music exposure as a kid, and maybe even possibly a genetic component (identical twins are 10-15% more likely to have it if their twin does.)
You see numbers like 1/10,000 thrown out, but other studies find that maybe 7% of musicians have it, and 32% of Asian music students. I know there are skills, like learning foreign languages that are much easier to pick up as a kid, but I'm not convinced that it's not something you can't possibly learn later in life. It's certainly harder, and may not even be worth the effort- the relative pitch part of it is much more important for playing music, but it's not a likely skill that many people who don't have some aptitude for it already are going to spend a lot of time trying to learn.
Yeah Nate. That thing that you do picking out the right harmonica, singing song in right key is leading you down a neat rabbit hole. Just for fun, attach the inner feeling of "sunlight breaking through clouds" whenever you play in the Key of "D" or discover that this is the key of the song you are listening to.
I'll bet one day you'll hear a brand new song for the first time and get that "sunlight feeling" only to discover later that it was indeed in the key of "D".
That's how it starts to work its magic. ---------- The Iceman
Toss Parrot and Iceman have mentioned a feeling associated with a key. I was under the impression that equal temperament eliminated these differences between key. I have started a perfect pitch course on CD that talks about a feeling or color of just a note by itself, and if this is true, temperament would not eliminate the "feeling" of the key. Is detecting the key of a song easier in a non equal temperament?
Equal temperament eliminates the problems inherent in nature in regards to setting up a keyboard temperament, assuring that modulating to any key can be done with no ill "side effects".
This has no relationship to the perception of "color" or "feeling" used in perfect pitch recognition.
Learning to perceive every note by "color hearing" can also be enhanced by attaching a feeling to the color, which, in turn, becomes the same awareness for recognizing the key.
One is merely attaching a "visual/feeling" in one's mind to a non-visual medium.
Another helpful hint in perfect and/or relative pitch recognition: Allow the music/notes to come to your ears without straining forward to listen. Become more passive as you build the self trust to recognize pitch and/or intervals. The same goes for "hearing inside note clusters".
This is not a physical exercise in which you build up listening muscles.
I started the David L Burge course some time ago but stalled out on it when I realized I needed a dedicated space to listen and concentrate and room to write. Most of my practice these days takes place in a parked car where I can practice trumpet and harmonica without bothering anyone. Trombone in a car just doesn’t see to work ??.
After being inspired by this conversation, perhaps I will get a clipboard and pop the CD into the car player during the half hour or so I spend practicing in the morning in my car in a parking lot after having left home early to avoid traffic.
