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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Bending to pitch while totally deaf.....
Bending to pitch while totally deaf.....
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The Iceman
3139 posts
Jun 11, 2017
7:42 AM
This subject came up briefly during my discussion of tongue position vs. "throat bending".

I stated that, with knowledge of exact tongue placement to create bends, I could do so even if I lost my hearing - it all being about muscle memory and placement and not so dependent on feedback received through the ear.

Here is a prime example of this exact concept demonstrated on the world's stage...in this case, it is a singer who became totally deaf, yet is still able to sing beautifully and at pitch just using placement and muscle memory - no ear hearing at all.


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The Iceman
JSalow
19 posts
Jun 25, 2017
11:20 AM
This doesn't necessarily prove that. Many deaf people are able to recognize notes due to the feeling of the vibrations. This was part Beethoven's technique when he went deaf. Don't see any reason this couldn't be the same when playing harmonica.

That doesn't mean knowledge of tongue placement isn't important, the human anatomy isn't the same every moment, and she must be using something else to adjust pitch as needed. As a barbershop singer I know first hand, pitch must be constantly adjusted to outside factors.
The Iceman
3201 posts
Jun 25, 2017
11:33 AM
"and she must be using something else to adjust pitch as needed."

If it isn't a muscle memory and placement, what would the "something else" be? I'm curious. I do believe she has totally lost all ability to hear anything.

Beethoven was not a singer...he could hear the music in his inner ear through his genius. He could "hear" the score he was composing without having an orchestra play for him to feel the vibes, IMO.

and, since you yourself are not totally deaf, it may be a mistake to impute your awareness of singing and keeping pitch to someone without hearing.

Since I can wake up in the morning, reach over, put harmonica in my mouth and hit a note created through bending (tongue placement) to exact pitch, this may be very similar to having absolutely no reference point aside from muscle memory, as I believe this young woman does.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 25, 2017 11:38 AM
hvyj
3341 posts
Jun 25, 2017
12:07 PM
Jerry Portnoy teaches articulation of certain vowel sounds which is just another way of learning tongue position, I suppose.

QUESTION for Iceman: bending 3 draw to pitch on high register harps (key of D and above) is harder than on lower register harps. How does this affect tongue position?
The Iceman
3203 posts
Jun 25, 2017
12:14 PM
Do not consider it as "harder", or it will be so.

It is just "different".

As the key of the harmonica ascends, I adjust all tongue positions slightly forward in the mouth - in other words, my "target spots" on the roof of my mouth are adjusted forward incrementally depending on the harmonica key. No huge difference, but micro in size/scope, but definitely not one size fits all harmonicas.
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The Iceman
JSalow
20 posts
Jun 25, 2017
2:38 PM
"Beethoven was not a singer...he could hear the music in his inner ear through his genius. He could "hear" the score he was composing without having an orchestra play for him to feel the vibes, IMO."

Yes but he was also known to sit on the floor while composing so that he could "hear" by feeling the vibrations from his piano. Notes in isolation are one thing, but when playing, singing, whatever with backing or others you must constantly be adjusting to stay in tune with everything else, whether you are conscious of it or not.

Although a note might be perfect on the tuner, it may sound horrible when mixed with all the other notes. We know this to be true, it's why compromise tunings exist on harmonica.

Now in her case it may be possible that because it's a recorded backing, all she needs is her memorized positions because she will always be singing to the same backing. But this ignores that the room plays a huge effect.

Now I don't know what she's doing so it's all moot anyway. My point applies to the harmonica. Sure, you can wake up in the morning and hit the note perfectly due to memorized tongue positioning. I think that's undoubtedly true, in isolation. When playing with others, that exact positioning will almost never be exactly where you should be to get the actual pitch that doesn't clash with everything else you're doing. You need to adjust on the fly.

I definitely believe that having the muscle memory to hit it makes it a lot easier and a shorter trip to get that note where it needs to be with others though.

I don't disagree with you really. I disagree with you making assumptions of what that deaf singer must be doing. You have absolutely no evidence. Maybe it's all muscle memory, maybe she adjust to the feeling of the vibrations, maybe both. We don't know, so to try to use it as proof of your argument (which I mostly agree with), isn't appropriate.
The Iceman
3205 posts
Jun 25, 2017
2:59 PM
My argument was that, even without the ability to hear, one can do what needs to be done by muscle memory. This singer proves it.

If she had practiced this song and had it down w/muscle memory and then her back up band decided to change the key on her, I don't believe that feeling the vibes would help her at all.

I never claimed that muscle memory pitch creation is the be all and end all for all musical situations, just that it can be done successfully.
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The Iceman
nacoran
9495 posts
Jun 25, 2017
5:18 PM
Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night with entire songs in my head, with all the instruments playing. My problem is my dream memory doesn't last long enough for me to figure out what all the parts are doing, let alone figure out how to write it all down.

Beethoven is an extreme case, but I suspect the ability to write out sheet music, even without an instrument, is a (relatively) common form of genius when you are talking about musicians who were trained to rely on sheet music, even if you lose the ability to hear. Back before you could record things music memory and transcription was a much more ingrained skill.

Of course, having the genius to make that music sound like Beethoven is a whole different level of genius.

I imagine that any instrument where the tone isn't sort of built in is probably a mix of muscle memory and hearing the vibrations. I remember hearing once about a dormitory at a school for the deaf. Apparently it was uncomfortably loud for anyone with normal hearing. The deaf students would play really loud music with lots of bass that they could hear through the floor.

I do think it's got to involve vibrations quite a bit. We had a blind student at my high school. She was a pretty accomplished piano player, and used to play the accompaniment for our choir shows. One time she had a really bad ear infection and couldn't hear the piano well. She gave playing a try, but wasn't able to do it well at all.

Of course, she might have been able to change her technique given enough time. She really only had a problem for a few days.


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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Tuckster
1596 posts
Jun 26, 2017
8:58 AM
I've been exploring this ever since you mentioned it in another post.It might work for others but it ain't happening for me. The tongue position is so subtle that I cannot do it without aural feedback. I've even queried 2 very talented players/teachers and they,too,are sceptical. Their biggest issue is you don't bend the same on every key harp. If you played a whole step 3 hole on an A,it won't be the same on an F.
The Iceman
3210 posts
Jun 26, 2017
9:55 AM
You and the players you queried no doubt learned to bend the old fashioned way - took years of practice, etc. To firmly understand the tongue position, you guys may have to spend time rethinking/unlearning/reworking your bend concepts, which is a lot to ask of an "old dog".

The subtlety you mention is part of the understanding, as it is really only the smallest movement of the tongue to create the deepest bends - but you need the target point/sweet spot firmly in mind and no extraneous movements. To an old dog, it might seem like too tiny a movement to control. To someone who learns this as their baseline, they start to totally understand minimal movements for maximum effect.

You do bend "the same" for every key harp - the only difference is that, as you start from low key harps on up to the highest ones, all your solid focus points/target points on the roof of your mouth shift forwards ever so slightly with every higher harp you use - and the spaces between these target points compress and shrink slightly with each higher harmonica.

You do need aural feedback for a bit until you are totally solid with the target points and they are second nature. Then, merely place tongue in position, breath and voila - note created with bending technique pops out.

This is why I love teaching rank beginners the proper technique from day 1. Amazing results. Old dogs learning new tricks - not so amazing results all the time. Lotsa unlearning and relearning involved - but definitely worth the effort.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 26, 2017 9:56 AM
KingoBad
1702 posts
Jun 26, 2017
7:58 PM
I know many harp players who can totally hear, and can't bend to pitch...

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Danny
Tuckster
1598 posts
Jun 27, 2017
6:53 AM
I am definitely an old dog! I've unlearned a number of things over the last few years but my bending technique is deeply ingrained.
One of the teachers told me a story about one of his students who was "tonally challenged". He couldn't hear the bends properly,so he learned to play them by tongue position. He still didn't know which bend to play where.
nacoran
9498 posts
Jun 27, 2017
9:25 AM
We had a guitar player in my first band who I swear was tone deaf. He could play a mean guitar. He'd learned all the finger positions and what chords he was supposed to play when. He'd sound really good for a while, and then, as his guitar would drift out of tune he'd sound like a train wreck, standing there smiling like he was rockin' it until we'd make him use his tuner again.

That wasn't even why we kicked him out of the band but that seems to support the idea of muscle memory.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009


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