I have been playing blues on diatonic for 30 years and thinking it's time now to try chromatic. As i play exclusively blues and given the price of a good chromatic (ex: hohner deluxe 270) if i can afford only one chromatic what is the best key to have... to play blues... (i know we can play in all keys whith a chromatic) Do you prefer A or C ?
well most 16 hole chromatics that I am aware of only come in C 12 hole chromatics can come in different keys. I may be wrong though but first you would want to choose exactly what kind of chromatic you would want to play- 12 16- then of course there is the number of reed plates too. do a little research before you dive right in
I am just getting into Chromes a bit more after years of having several nice ones taking up space in my gig bag with little attention.
If you are into blues, and are just getting into Chros, many old schoolers are playing the 3rd position, so you might want to just figure out the keys of your favorite stuff to help out your learning curve. You are probably safe with a C harp, as much of the recorded material is in D. Note that Little Walter plays "I'm Ready" on a C chro I believe, with the button pressed in (Eb). Great patterns in that example to emulate.
I personally have a hohner 16holers in C, but have a 12 holer Easttop, which is also in a C tuning(but powerchromatic). I do find myself playing a G chro for songs in A that have a jump blues feel to them.
Last Edited by Chris Sachitano on May 15, 2017 9:24 AM
Playing in 3rd position gives you the chordal option which is a min6 chord. That's what give 3rd position that haunting sound. I only use a C chrome to play bluesy tunes. Other keys besides 3rd (D) position that I like to use chrom for are: 2nd (G) 4th (A) and E (5th). Here are some tunes that show 3rd, 2nd and 4th position.
All my chromatic harmonicas are C. I practice playing blues & other stuff in all 12 keys. I only have one key of chromatic so I tend to think of them as playing in C or A rather then in 1st or 4th. I was just transcribing a blues in 10th (Eb) recently.
I have 2 Chromatics that I play the heck out of. If I had to pick one, it would be my Hohner 64 Chromonica (key of C). The lower octave is really cool.
My other is a Hohner Super Chromonica 12 hole in the key of G. That let's me play A min tunes.
I bought my 64 on eBay used in really good condition for $60 and thoroughly cleaned and disinfected it prior to playing. I know it seems gross to buy a used harp, but it was a better choice than getting a budget new harp (IMO). I figure if you want to sound like LW, you should play what he played.
Helge Tallqvist and Groovy Eyes plays George Harmonica Smith is a good cd. Also Helge Tallqvist's In Footsteps. My first song I learned was left my heart in SF.
A Bb chro is great to have too. I find there are more tunes to play in C than D.
I love the chordal tones when playing chromatics in 3rd position. To this end I've converted my G-48 from C to G, the CX 12 is going from C to D, bought a Super 64X for the extra base octave and bought a Bb CX 12 from Reverb for a great price. If I buy another it will be a CX 12 in F. I also bought one of Brendan Powers Chroma Benders, it's in A so don't know how much use I'll get out of it. My current mantra is "I ain't gonna die wondering!" It's proving a tad expensive, but we're only here the once (that we can remember!)
One of the George Harmonica Smith tracks I embedded here, Boogie "N" With George, he's playing a key of C 64 Chromatic in 1st position, something many players don't learn, but the thing is, you gotta use the button a lot more and essentially turn 1st position so that it's more like 3rd position.
For those of you who may not know, my CD, Barbeque Bob Maglinte & The Rhythm Aces -- Live At The Waterfront, is already on Spotify. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I've heard it before but I must say it again! I'm with Todd, barbequebob, it's a very cool stuff! ---------- Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine) http://kolesnichenko-harmonica.com/
The chord progression is similar to "The Thrill is Gone": A minor and D minor I and IV chords. The turnaround, instead of going V-IV-I (E-D-A) goes bVI-V-I (F7-E7-A minor).
Each verse explores a different technique, but most of what I play is based on the A minor pentatonic scale: A C D E G - but with chromatic passing tones, and sometimes notes from the D and E blues scales. I also use splits and chords that fit with A minor (and D minor and E7 and F7).
Notice that during the I (A minor) chord I was careful to play the note A by itself (or in octaves) and never combine it with other notes, because none of them fit the A minor chord.
By following that one simple rule, I was able to do all kinds of other splits and double stops - and single note lines, and still have everything sound like it fit.
The other thing I did a fair amount of was to focus on the A minor pentatonic, as described above. You could change the scale every time you change the chord (and sometimes I did that). But it's amazing how much mileage you can get out of the minor pentatonic (or blues scale if you add the flat 5). =========== Winslow
Third position is king in the world of blues chromatic. Its D minor draw chord has a great sound that creates a rich, stable platform for playing blues, just as second position does on the diatonic.
So I'm curious to know who else on this list (aside from known recording artists) besides me is playing blues chromatic in positions other than third.
Some approaches used in the past:
Holding the slide in to raise third position one semitone (technically that's 10th position) is one approach, and starting with Little Walter ("I'm Ready" w/Muddy), players have used that approach (for one, Paul deLay on "The Other One").
Playing in first position is something that George Smith did now and then, using the blow chord as the home base, and often using the slide to play blue notes ("Boogiein' With George"); and some artists have emulated that approach (e.g., Mark Hummel's "Humble Bug," and, in a jazzier vein, Paul deLay's "Second-Hand Smoke").
Using the draw notes and the slide to play a blues scale in first position (C on a C chromatic), which is how Stevie Wonder developed his approach (Check out the live version of "Fingertips"). Little Walter experimented with this approach ("That's It," alternating with third-position Bb diatonic) and similarly on Muddy's "My Eyes Keep Me in Trouble" where he used the slide-out approach, playing a C chromatic in B, working off the draw notes for his solo (but using a first-position B harp for most of the song) but didn't seem to make the connection that you need some additional notes to make it work fully.
Raising second position one semitone with the slide (technically 9th position) as Paul deLay did on "You Ain't Got No Heart."
I've also recorded in sixth position,(B on a C chromatic, but using the side-in notes F# and C#), as on "Blue Chrome."
Of course, jazz musicians like Toots Thielemans can play 12-bar blues in any key, but it sounds more like the jazz version of blues than the kind of blues we're involved in here. For instance, here's Toots taking Duke Ellington's C-Jam Blues and raising the key every verse or two, going from C to Db to D to Eb to E to F to F# to G, in C to G Jam Blues.
Winslow, I am not a known recording artist and I play major or minor blues on chromatic harmonicas of different keys.
I play in 1st, 3rd, and 4th, also sometimes using the button in positions of 8th, 10th, and 11th. My 2nd and 9th are marginal, but doable in a pinch. Since I have 8 keys of chromatic harmonicas, when I decide to use a chromatic rather than diatonic I choose a position and key of chromatic that will take advantage of the modes associated with a position for ease of play of the song, though I do use the button quite a bit and often could play a given song in different positions on different keys of chromatic.
Not quite sure what you're saying. Listening to the original BB King recording, I'm not hearing a IV chord before the bVi chord.
Three out of five notes will work over what chord? If you mean the F (bVI) chord, that's true for the BB King version where the VI chord is a major 7 chord (F A C E in A minor). But I didn't use a major 7 chord. Instead, I chose to use an F7 chord (F A C Eb).
If you make the bVI chord a major 7th, then the 5th note of the scale works over all three chords (bVI, V, and I). But when you make the bVI chord a regular 7th chord, you need the flat 5th degree of the scale over that chord. I made that sacrifice because I liked the sound of the bVI7 chord better for my purposes. =========== Winslow
Thanks. I think you're a sleeper and a helluva a player. I always notice what you do in jam circles.
To get my chops up on blues in all keys, I woodshedded of course. But then then I had to force myself to take the plunge of leaving my diatonics at home and taking just a C chromatic to a jam. It forced me to own up to the chromatic and go all the way with it. =========== Winslow
The draw notes add up to a D minor 6 chord, which is the IV chord and the IV chord will always undercut the I chord. Playing a IV chord while the band is playing the I chord will sound wrong unless you know how to get into it and back out in a way that doesn't sound wrong.
Looking at the individual notes, the F clashes with the E in the A minor chord, while the B clashes with the C. Both are a semitone away from a chord note.
The D clashes with both the C and the E; it's a whole tone away from each.
That's not to say you can't play those notes against an A minor chord. They can function as passing notes between chord tones, chord extensions (7ths, 9ths, etc.), and as deliberate tensions to be resolved to chord notes - IF you prepare and resolve them well.
But to use non-chord tones as full-on chordal combinations, even as things like slaps, tends to clash and weaken the overall feel of the most important chord in the song, the I chord.
So forat that reason I never played A as a harmony with any other note when the A minor chord was sounding. =========== Winslow
i guess i am chromatically in over my head here. not understanding why you can only play a root note. i am under the impression that the reason to play a chrom, is that all the notes are there. perhaps that is why i prefer a diatonic, it's much more simple.
In my neck of the woods, we would not call that a flat sixth chord. It would be a sharp five chord. The Am and Dm would be played as minor 7th chords. The sharp 5 comes after the one chord. But that is just how I remember it.
the sharp 5 and the five chord would be played as ninth chords.
Last Edited by 1847 on May 17, 2017 7:03 PM
The sixth degree is F. (this is a minor or, in shorthand-speak, "flat" sixth.)
The sharp 5 is E-sharp.
An E-sharp 7th chord is E# G## (G-double sharp) B#, D#.
But if we use the name of the sixth degree instead, it's spelled F-A-C-Eb. Looks nicer than the E# chord, no?
Also, why use the same degree of the scale twice, in two different versions? A basic rule of building a major or minor scale is that you use each letter name *once* unless there'e an unavoidable reason to do otherwise. You keep things simple and avoid confusion that way.
So, E is the 5, and F is the flat (i.e., minor) sixth. No chance for confusion over, "Gee is it the regular five or the sharp-5?" And the chords are easy to spell. ---------- =========== Winslow
1847 says; " i am under the impression that the reason to play a chrom, is that all the notes are there."
Just because you have all the notes doesn't mean you play them indiscriminately. You play the right notes at the right time, where they fit and sound good. If an A minor chord is sounding and I play A and B at the same time, or A and F, they clash with the chord notes for the reasons I stated and will sound bad - *unless* I prepare them carefully and use them strategically.
All the same things are true when you play the diatonic. Playing in A on A c diatonic will present you with exactly the same combinations and the same sharp edges and dangers.
Making good note choices has nothing to do with what instrument you're playing and everything to do with hearing the effects of what you play against the background. Music theory is just a way of organizing that information, and if you use your ears and your understanding you can do a lot that might otherwise be out of reach. =========== Winslow
Lowering the fifth and raising the ninth are very much part of standard blues alterations to a chord. The notes inside the chord. But the root note of the chord isn't changed by those alterations; it's still simpler and clearer to call it a flat six that a sharp five.
Playing a Bb or Eb horn doesn't change anything either, just transposes it to another key. Which has its own chord based on the flat sixth, and sinside the chord may have its own flat five and raised nine :) =========== Winslow
it's still simpler and clearer to call it a flat six that a sharp five.
I suppose we will have to respectfully agree to disagree, you cats in northern calif. Speak a different dialect than us simple folks here in socal
On a more serious note…..
Totally confounded and confused on your reply that only one note will fit over a Am chord. Certainly any chord tone will work. I am questioning my sanity here.
Actually, you just agreed with me about the flat sixth. And by the way, I didn't dream this stuff up. It's standard music theory and has been for hundreds of years.
I NEVER SAID that "only one note will fit over a Am chord." I said that only one *draw* note (A) is *part of* the A minor chord. The other two, C, and E, are blow notes.
Can you play a Draw A at the same time as you play Blow C and E? If you can, I wanna know your secret.
Any note, even non-chord tones, can be made to fit - in some kinda way - even if it's not part of the chord - as I've been saying all along. But it has to be done in a way that works, not just bunged in there with no regard to the effect it creates.
I do not see where you replied about the draw chord. I read… Notice that during the I (A minor) chord I was careful to play the note A by itself (or in octaves) and never combine it with other notes, because none of them fit the A minor chord.
Sorry, I do not see where you wrote… I said that only one *draw* note (A) is *part of* the A minor chord. The other two, C, and E, are blow notes. Hence the confusion.
I did not just agree to call it a flat six. Those are your words. If someone called out a flat six on the band stand, the chord would go by me before I figured out what the hell they were talking about, where as If they called a sharp 5….. I would know before the chord hit where we are going. You say tomato I say tomatoe….. of course we both know we are talking about the same notes. So after having it beat into my head here repeatedly, it is not so foreign to me now. However… Since if I were playing the chords on a guitar, I would slide up from the E9 to the F9 as A grace note… hence the sharp # 5
since I only have a fourth grade education, I think it would be best If I did not argue semantics with people much smarter than me. “semantics” is a big word for a fourth grader. I was the smartest kid in my class up until that point.
@WinslowYerxa -- I do mainly 3rd position, but I also play 1st position and sometimes 2nd position and sometimes 4th position as well. I've done a slow blues on a 64 Chromatic that started out in C and then gradually modulated in 1/2 steps all the way to E and you RARELY see most players do that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Use whatever works for you. But clarity, consistency, and standard terminology work best for me. I could take apart why describing it as a sharp 5, which would be E#, even though you name it F (flat 6) are logically inconsistent, but you don't seem interested in that.
As to this "you never said" stuff, perhaps I didn't state the obvious at the outset; I didn't feel that I needed to, given the context. Evidently I was wrong. But if you go back and read carefully to absorb the information, I think you might find some useful knowledge. =========== Winslow
I've been using keyed chromatics for blues for years. I find C, G and D to be my most used, followed by A and F. The investment has been a little steep for a harp player but well worth it. "First" and "third" positions work exceptionally well for me; I love playing straight position blues on chrom because it has a beautiful range and expression. Third works over minor blues but can also be used over a major blues on the right song. I'm by no means an expert but this works for me. Go chrom or go home! ;)
@Gorfalamu You should try 4th sometime. It is a lot like 1st, and works easily for minor songs. You just don't get those chords you get in 3rd. ----------
@gnarly I would not say Amin is first position even thought it has the white keys like C major. I would reference my version of "Ain't No Sunshine". It uses way more than the White Keys of C major. The A blues scale has an Eb in it. I also use A dorian and A harmonica minor both with notes outside the Key of C major. ----------
4th position on a C means playing some kind of an A scale. A natural minor, Am, is the relative minor of the C major scale and has all the same notes.
From Wikipedia: ******** A minor (abbreviated Am) is a minor scale based on A, with the pitches A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. Its key signature has no flats and no sharps (see below: Scales and keys). However the harmonic minor scale raises the G to G?. A minor's relative major is C major, and its parallel major is A major.
***** Depending on the song, I play minor modes in 4th and use the button only to hit any necessary notes outside Aeolian scale. I also add ornaments and passing tones with the button. The notes in the scale of the Aeolian mode of C, the natural minor, are all available without the button. ----------
@dougharps, I haven't found those other positions particularly useful in blues. You nailed it with chords. The farther you get from first position it seems the fewer chord possibilities are available. That may be due to my own ignorance but practicality on stage is also a major point.
I will try some of those positions on other material; Band in a Box is always ready to try something new!
Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that using a harmonica to play in A without black keys was something other than Am--but there are no minor key signatures, if you are playing in A, it is probably in a key--accidentals don't really count with key signatures, they are added afterward. So if you are playing in A Aeolian, those are the same notes you would use to play in C Ionian. Granted you start and end on A instead of C, all of the notes except for accidentals are white keys. Harmonic minor is basically giving the dominant chord a major third (that's the way I usually think of it) and Dorian, Phyrian and Locrian are some other key signature. All of this is academic, but I am just offering my perspective. I am not sure it is much different than Doug's, it might be different than Emile's. And lastly, my perspective is definitely not grounded in the blues, too much pop radio, not enough juke joints.
Edit--ever wonder why the musical alphabet starts on A instead of C? Could it be that minor is the real tonality, and we have been fooling ourselves thinking it was major? White keys on the piano--oh wow . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 22, 2017 8:54 PM
The one musical absolute that I strongly believe is that everything we know about music is relative and not absolute. Music itself came BEFORE people devised the conventions and language that currently define music.
Music is its own language.
There is the math of music and there are the spoken and written language used to convey musical ideas, including the various forms of musical notation and tab.
Musical terminology, theory, language, and musical math are all attempts to explain, describe, coordinate, and communicate about musical ideas and performance. While some of the observations may convey truth and can be very useful, they are not music itself.
Just like a map, these conventions may guide us and allow us to discuss and build understanding of musical geography, but descriptions and explanations of music are not music.
THE MAP IS NOT THE TERRITORY! ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 23, 2017 9:43 AM
@Diggs Just checked the overtone series on a low E string of an acoustic guitar--exactly right, the seventh is definitely flat. So is the overtone series a major scale at all???? Yes! Edit--
So all of the "chromatic" tones are in there--but the b7 occurs before the major 7th.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 24, 2017 4:14 PM
Seeing as you guys are getting on to this topic, perhaps you should check out George Russell's book "The Lydian Chromatic Concept." He takes some of the ideas you're sketching in and fleshes them out to great depth (is depth of flesh a thing?).
@Winslow I have started reading it many times, but never really gotten it. My copy is in a box in storage somewhere, it is a slender volume but I don't have room for it here, what with all the harmonicas. The whole package is available here, seems to be 268 pages and over a hundred dollars.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 25, 2017 11:02 PM
Dang, Gary, I had no idea that book had gotten so expensive! I bought my copy year ago in a music store like any garden variety music book. =========== Winslow
I imagine your copy, like mine is not 268 pages. This looks interesting too, probably along the same lines. http://www.eastcoastmusic.com/Techniques-of-Improvisation-Volume-1-The-Lydian-p/yl00-2753.htm I fear I have led us far from the original topic--my apologies . . .
