Hello-- The universe has conspired to put me in a "sweet spot"--I am the technician responsible for warranty repairs on the Japan Suzuki harmonicas imported by Suzuki USA. Most of these models are equal temperament, with the exception of the Fabulous Just model and the Manji and Olive models, which are, according to Pat Missin, "a compromise tuning which is essentially equal temperament with a few cents lopped off the major thirds of the chords. The new Suzuki Olive has a similar tuning, but the sample I tried also had the 6 and 10 draw noticeably lowered." My primary instrument is guitar, which is also tuned ET, but Just has become attractive to me recently. My question to all y'all is, does ET bother you, or can you deal with it in a performance situation?
If I'm playing two-note harmonies or chords with more notes, equal temperament can make chords sound harsh. And all the alternatives will sweeten one thing while souring another. There's no perfect solution.
On the other hand, moving away from equal temperament can put your single notes out of tune with pianos and other rigid-pitch instruments.
Norton Buffalo used to gig with two complete sets of diatonics -one set tuned to equal temperament for pure melody playing, another to a temperament (I never asked him the details) that favored chords. =========== Winslow
ET bothers me for blues. I don't have a problem with it for other styles of music. I find that I like/dislike a harp based more on the tuning than hole spacing,comb material,recessed comb,etc.
I agree. It bothers me for blues. Also a good bit of the time I'm playing unaccompanied just playing solo rhythms. So my concern isn't matching up with pianos,etc. But more about the sound of the chords and the general backing rhythm I'm trying to keep going.
I want to try an experiment. I want to tune a manji and Lee Oskar to 19 limit and see if I like them more. I think a bit of the sound may have to do with the reed material of these two harps aswell.
Well, I am not a blues player (per se), but the harmonica is a blues instrument (for many). And chords are impressive when using Just and its cousins. Howard Levy uses ET, yes? But most of our other go-to harp idols don't . . . Todd Parrott, ET? He probably has alternative harps too . . . It's all I can do at work not to retune every harmonica to Just or compromise--sometimes I do it and wait to see if they notice, I did that to Billy Branch's Manjis (his face is on the lit!) and nary a peep.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 08, 2017 10:57 AM
Opinions are good, and I asked for them. But here's the deal, when I use the iStroboSoft app (as recommended rather strongly by harpwrench), I set it to 1st position--so that means that it's in tune with first position. Now, 3rd position is Dorian, which means it uses the notes from 12th (F on a C harp). But the tonic is draw one, not draw 5, and so it too sounds pretty good with Just. In my opinion. Not that I use 3rd much--hey, I mostly play chrom, and you can be sure I don't tune that to Just!
"Does anyone carry a set tuned for 2nd and another set (presumably in et) for the other positions?" Strobosoftplus arrived today and I do want to have enough harps in different temperments to address the crazy number of things I'm playing these days. I'll start with getting them in tune and then probally target groups of tunes I can get a lot out of in ET or Just19 or...?
I have many vintage marine bands.....all JI tuned....single note playing....golden melodys,suzuki and lee oskar.....but the richer sound,whether 19ji or 7 ji.........thats for me....the sound I want.....but thats just me
Hi Jim-- Just. I am tuning most diatonics these days to just. It seems to sound better. I like the extra notes that come from having the notes agree with each other. If I am tuning to ET, I usually use PanoTuner, or APTuner--all apps on the iPhone.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 08, 2017 4:50 PM
Gnarly said: I mostly play chrom, and you can be sure I don't tune that to Just!
I have a chrom that Wally Peterman tuned to just intonation for me. I think it sounds great for the style I play. ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
Perhaps you think I am going to find fault with Mr. Wally Peterman. Guess again. Just is great if you are playing chords, and Wally does that as well as anybody. I play chrom so I can get all the notes, not so much for chords. Let's use my previous example. If you tune a C chromatic to Just, and then play in F, the tonic is flat. Oooops. I think F is one of the better keys in which to play chromatic. Uh oh, thread drift . . .
I use and prefer ET harps, but occasionally I'll use a harp where I've tuned the major 3rds a few cents flatter to smooth out the chords, kinda like how Pat Missin described Suzuki's tuning as "essentially equal temperament with a few cents lopped off the major thirds of the chords." As an example, sometimes I'll tune the whole harp to 442, but tune the major 3rds to 441. I also experiment with other compromises from time to time. However, the rough sounding chords on ET harps don't really bother me that much. I guess I've just gotten used to it over the years.
Here's a chart I found (as a result of a Google search) at http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-centsratio.htm
Last Edited by Todd Parrott on May 08, 2017 11:55 PM
Groyster. " the richer sound,whether 19ji or 7 ji." I've heard people say this before. I think you have it confused. Richter is the note layout. Blow being root, third, fifth draw being (I don't really know, lol)
But the point is A harp tuned to ET will still be in richter. The tuning and the note layout are two different things. Power bender "tuning" is a different note layout. Hope that makes sense.
Gnarly. "I like the extra notes that come from having the notes agree with each other." YES. Well said. That's it exactly. Those extra (harmonics?) that are inbetween the notes. That's what et is missing.
I find most players are delighted with some sort of compromise that makes the major triads sound strong in first, second and third positions.
7-Limit Just (no compromise) takes the 5 and 9 draw down very flat which enables the draw chord to sound very strong all the way up the harp on the draw side.
But if you avoid chords on the middle and top octaves of the draw side, (or don't mind rough sounding chords there) you are satisfied with the 5 and 9 being closer to ET (that's the compromise).
I would like to clarify "There is no conversion from Hz to cents and vice versa."
Actually, there is. I think what the author means is that the conversion is not a constant (like 1 inch is 2.54 centimeters). As described by the same text, it's a ratio on a logarithmic scale. It's very easily calculated by your chromatic tuner.
That's what a tuner does when you set the base frequency (Example, from 440 to 443).
What you are adjusting there is the reference point (A4=440). Not every note is A4 and your tuner knows that. It will figure out that a lower octave or a different note needs a much different change in pitch than a higher octave or note.
So if you want about to tune to -12 cents, it's perfectly fine to lower the base frequency on your tuner by 3 Hz.
-You are not telling the tuner to lower every pitch by 3 Hz -You are telling the tuner to lower the pitch of every note by the equivalent of what happens to A4 when you lower the reference by 3 Hz.
I'm of the same mind as Todd. I'm not all that bothered by the less than sweet chords on an ET harp, but I am very bothered by the out of tune single notes on a non-ET harp. This is especially so with the 5 draw. It sounds very dissonant to me if this note is tuned sharp or flat.
Except for practice, all of my playing is with other musicians. It is more important to me that I sound in tune with the other musicians than to sound in better tune with myself when I play chords. Todd has perfect pitch. I certainly don't. But every now and then at a jam someone comes up with the notion that "dueling harmonicas" would sound cool and I wind up playing with another harp player. If they are playing a Marine Band (as is often the case) it is very obvious that my ET harp has superior intonation relative to the rest of the band. You don't need to have perfect pitch in order to hear it.
Last Edited by hvyj on May 09, 2017 7:36 AM
I know that some years ago they had the great comb debate at SPAH, and played the same harps with different material combs. Maybe this year at SPAH we can do the same thing with tuning: have the same player play the same model tuned to different tunings, play a song with more chords, one more single notes with a guitar, etc, so people can actually hear the difference.
Especially in slow blues in 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd, there is a significant difference in how the intonations sound. The difference is the difference tones that fill out the chords and make a huge sound, especially when using 7 limit Just Intonation tuning. We had another thread on that and I linked Pat Missin's examples.
I have 5 keys of Herings in 7 limit Just Intonation and it makes a big difference in the full rich sound of the amplified chords used in blues. However, the flat notes do not sound good on single note lines. I seldom use them, because I play more in other genres than straight old school blues. Still, 7 limit JI sounds great when used for that purpose.
In the 90s and early 2000s my Equal Intonation Lee Oskars served me well when Special 20s and Marine Bands were failure prone. But the sound of the chords grated on my ears. Then Hohner improved in response to competition, Suzuki kept getting better, then Seydel. Lots of good options!
I have arrived at using 19 limit or compromise intonation tuned harps most of the time to suit my approach of mixing chords and single notes in playing the Americana, Folk, and Roots music I enjoy. The chords are a little sweeter than the Equal intonation harps, but the single notes not so flat as 7 limit JI.
I don't think this an either/or analysis will give the same right answer for every player. I think that we all need to be aware of the differences in how different intonations sound, be aware of our own approaches and the genres we play most, and then choose accordingly to meet our individual needs.
Intonation is a subtle issue that is less important than developing good technique and tone. Much like the issue of mics and amps, you have to build your own abilities before the more subtle differences become relevant to our playing.
That we are now in a time when we can choose from many good brands of harmonica and even get into issues like intonation is wonderful! ----------
For diatonic harps, there have been three versions of just intonation that have been used. The first one is 7 limit, which has the 3rd or the blow chord tuned 14 cents flat and the draw chord 12 cents flat with 5 & 9 draw tuned 27-31 cents flat, which is great for traditional blues, folk and old timey stuff up to 3rd position. When Huang Harmonicas came out in 1982, they were the first to use 19 limit just intonation, and the difference between 7 limit and 19 limit is where 5 & 9 draw is tuned, and whereas 7 limit has those two tuned 27-31 cents flat, 19 limit has those two tuned 1.5 cents sharp, which makes this version considerably more versatile just in terms of playable positions alone. The other one is 5 limit just intonation, which has been used only in minor key tuned harps, and it's resembles 19 limit just intonation, except the 3rd of the blow chords is tuned 16 cents sharp and on the draw chord, they're tuned 14 cents sharp.
If you do a wide variety of genres, but hate the sound of ET, the most versatile tunings would be some sort of compromise tuning or 19 limit just intonation. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
>>Intonation is a subtle issue that is less important than developing good technique and tone. Much like the issue of mics and amps, you have to build your own abilities before the more subtle differences become relevant to our playing.
In my journey so far I've found that intonation is a critical part of technique and tone. How you hit the draw notes on the first 4 holes especially.. WRT to tuning, agree maybe it can considered a bit more subtle but WRT to technique and tone, to me goodintonation is crucial in order to sound pleasing to the ear, and good intonation will help to produce good tone which requires good technique. It's all connected..
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
slap... he was referring to temperament not intonation. but you bring up a great subject, perhaps we can expand on that with its own thread. it begs a discussion. ---------- .
Last Edited by 1847 on May 09, 2017 10:10 AM
As 1847 said, I was referring to the temperament to which the notes on the instrument are tuned: Equal Temperament, Compromise tuning, or 7 or 19 limit Just Intonation.
The issue raised by slaphappy warrants discussion and is a different topic about technique as opposed to a discussion about the tuning of the reeds on a harmonica to pitches meant to favor chords or single note playing. ----------
I like just intonation for chugging acoustic blues .harps like hering vintage and Suzuki fabulous etc. I like them for 1st second and third. Usually I am a rack wearing guitarist in this situation.
When hired as a harmonica player,I use a separate set of compromise or 19 limit JI tuned harps . Harpmaster ,delta frosts ,hering master blues ,etc. usually this is an electric,bullet through a masco or bassman situation.
I use ET harps for fast single note runs . I usually only have a few of these on hand . Suzuki promasters.
Yes i try to keep both ET and 'chord' friendly harps in my kit a la Norton Buffalo...it covers the subtle nuances brought about with different styles of music, and you have a back up in case of a breakdown. Recently i fell for a prewar MB and went for JI but at 432hz!!!! Its sweet but a little flat for melody and jamming etc...Good for Deford Bailey! ---------- Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation Dads in Space at Reverbnation
I have recently had a set of harps tuned to A434 (ET) to use for playing with a friend of mine and his band who tune to A432. They are too flat to use for playing with musicians who use standard reference tuning. But I really like the feel and resonance of the A432 reference tuning. Not only do they sound good, but I FEEL different playing them so I play differently. I had these harps tuned to A434 because I have my "standard" harps tuned to A442 for playing with musicians who tune to A440.
Gnarly said: Perhaps you think I am going to find fault with Mr. Wally Peterman.
LOL! No, you just gave me a chance to brag on having a Wally Peterman tuned chromatic. ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
@Sarge As a chord player, Wally is big on Just. It sounds like the answer to my question is definitely yes, many folks (including the great Todd Parrott) simply deal with ET for the most part, and resort to Just tuned harps when chords are a priority. Certain players obviously will have their preferences. It's interesting to me that I seem to be falling for Just.
Gnarly, Wally fully valved and just tuned a couple of my diatonics. Very full sound. You can hear one in the attached link if you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kmAOT35tFM
---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
Sarge, I listened and also noted Wally's comment on YouTube. I totally agree with him about your mastery of the melody / chord tongue blocking style in playing these songs! I also remember a post a while back from Jason about your playing, and how you should share it a SPAH.
I have never encountered anyone else who plays this style better than you do.
Regarding the OP, Just Intonation makes for nice rich full chords. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 12, 2017 1:38 PM
Except for harmonica, I don't think many musicians that are not at a fairy high academic level discuss temperament at all (kind of turns the harmonica player stereotype on its head doesn't it?). I found this interesting and informative article from Julliard about Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" and the search for what Bach considered "well temperament", which he may have encoded in the squiggles at the top of the manuscript. Has anyone ever used "well temperament" for the harmonica?
This comment was made in the article. "In practice, singers and most instrumentalists solve the problem spontaneously by intuitively adjusting their intonation." I think harmonica players do this when playing single notes. To the extent you can adjust a single note as the chord at hand requires, it seems the tuning the chords on a harp may be more critical.
Last Edited by STME58 on May 14, 2017 8:52 AM
I have found the descriptions and demonstrations presented here by the US Army Field Band Trombonists starting at about 55 minutes into this video to be a very good at describing what temperament is without getting bogged down in technical details. I don't even thing the term temperament is used. What they talk about is the difference between being in tune with the tuner vs. locking in the chord. Being trombonists, they are not inhibited by the way the instrument is set up but have infinite adjustment on pitch and they use this well in the demonstration.
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