groyster1
2929 posts
May 07, 2017
5:15 PM
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its always been my understanding that 5 draw only can produce one note....I got my korg tuner and did a 5 draw quarter step bend....It came up F....did 5 draw with no bend....still got F on the korg,,,,,still just one note
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Gnarly
2176 posts
May 07, 2017
5:34 PM
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You can bend the 5 draw down to just about unison with 5 blow--Winslow demonstrates this on the audio that goes along with the Harmonica for Dummies book.
But I don't have much use for that note.
I know, I know, LW and the third chorus of Juke--whatever . . .
For the most part, a bent note on draw 5 of a C harp will still be an F, it will just be flat.
BTW, I am tuning to just intonation a whole bunch these days, that note is already flat!
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Killa_Hertz
2337 posts
May 07, 2017
6:00 PM
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It's NOT about the note that it IS or IS NOT. It's about the inflection and being able to use it for extra expression. Might aswell argue that there is no point in using the Blue Third. The blue third is also a micro tonal note. Or make the slide guitar only be able to play whole notes.
I was apart of the Facebook conversation in which this came up. And I'll admit I was a bit unsure about it myself. I know I used the 5 draw bend alot, but was unsure about how the tone was defined .....if it was or was not a note. My music theory is lacking Big Time.
So after researching it a bit further I have seen that it's quite obvious that this is all just a hangup of being ignorant to micro tonal use in music. No offence.
Check this page out Groyster. It is one of many that helped me get a better grasp on the idea. Check out the section on "use in rock music"
Micro tonal Music
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STME58
1977 posts
May 07, 2017
6:28 PM
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Killa, I'm with you on the inflection. The ability to slide into a note can be very useful (or overused). The harmonica is in some ways a fret-less instrument. You might call it semi-fretless. Not quite as fret-less as a slide guitar or a trombone, but much more so than a keyboard.
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Killa_Hertz
2339 posts
May 07, 2017
6:43 PM
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Exactly Stme. Doesn't the magic of the harp really lie inbetween the notes?
It's draw is that it's so vocal. You can put your own personal shape on the notes.
I hope to hear more on this topic from those more knowledgeable about music theory than myself. This is the type of discussion we are all here for afterall.(I think. )
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STME58
1978 posts
May 07, 2017
10:05 PM
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You probably can't go to long in a discussion about micro tonality with out the name Harry Partch coming up.
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chromaticblues
1774 posts
May 08, 2017
7:06 AM
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George it's probably just your tuner. I have a cheap Korg and it's good for tuning, but it doesn't follow bends very well?
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groyster1
2930 posts
May 08, 2017
8:32 AM
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yes I also have a korg....I also could not get anything but C note on 7 blow bend....what note could you get on 5draw quarter step bend?thats my question....I tend to agree with Gnarly
Last Edited by groyster1 on May 08, 2017 8:33 AM
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hvyj
3288 posts
May 08, 2017
9:11 AM
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As I understand it, a flatter than flat 7th is called a harmonic seventh or a blues 7th. Besides being used in blues melodies it is also a commonly used note for barbershop quartet harmonies. Like the blue third, it is a microtonal interval. It is flatter than a half step flat by approximately a quarter tone, but there is an actual ratio for determining the exact microtonal interval.
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WinslowYerxa
1309 posts
May 08, 2017
9:17 AM
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A decent tuner will show you the notes* between* the defined note names.
There are 100 cents between one semitone and the next (e.g. from E to F). Notes can be fine tuned to be more than 100 or less than 100.
Many historical temperament systems redefine, or temper, these notes, and most harmonicas are tuned to a temperament where some of these notes are raised or lowered to make chords sound sweeter.
When you play into a tuner, the tuner should show you how many cents sharp or flat the note is. And when you bend the note down, you can see how many cents the note changes.
For instance, if I pick up my Crossover in C and play unbent Draw 5 with my reference pitch set to A440 (A vibrating 440 times a second, a reference from which all other pitches are then drawn), the note comes up as 19 cents sharp. If I bend it down s far as it can go, it shows up 34 cents flat - a difference of 53 cents, or slightly more than a quarter tone (50 cents, or half a 100-cent semitone).
Question 1: Why is the unbent note so sharp relative to the A440 standard?
Answer: Harmonicas are usually tuned to a higher pitch standard, anywhere from A442 to A448. This is partly because manufacturers know that most beginners (and many pros) depress pitch with their breath, so they pre-compensate for this. Also, in many places pitch keeps creeping up. In Germany, for instance, the de facto standard is A444.
Question 2: Is that quarter-tone-flat "note" really a valid note?
If I can hear that it's distinct from the E below it and the F above it, why wouldn't it be? Cultures around the world use microtonal pitches as distinct notes. The piano keyboard and the frets on standard guitars artificially divide the octave into only 12 parts, and then further artificially make them equal in size when in nature they're not.
But just because keyboards and guitar frets are artificially limited doesn't mean they get to define the rest of the musical universe. Sure, we have to accommodate them, but we don't have to be constrained by them.
===========
Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
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Gnarly
2178 posts
May 08, 2017
9:19 AM
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Like I said, when you tune to just, that note is the flattest.
This makes just tuned harps less useful for 12th position, where that note is the tonic.
Bend away, and consider my services after you break draw 5 by going below the floor.
Oh, and please forgive my cavalier attitude, I certainly mean no disrespect to all concerned--
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Killa_Hertz
2344 posts
May 08, 2017
9:48 AM
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Thanks Winslow. I'm glad this got brought up.
I think the problem people have with breaking the 5 draw reed is... not knowing the limits. And ofcourse using to much air and too much force. It seems that players try to get the same amount of bend that they get out of the 4draw .... like you said gnarly... going past the floor.
I mostly use the 5 draw bend as a "dwah" or scoop into the 5draw. Not so much as a held note.
I was more interested in this from a theory aspect.
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STME58
1980 posts
May 08, 2017
7:08 PM
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I don't understand the exact mechanism, I suspect it is the psychological impulse to draw harder when the bend "hits the floor" and stops bending, But I can attest that Gnarly has replaced many draw 5's for me. I break them less often now as I have learned to play with much less breath force.
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Gnarly
2184 posts
May 08, 2017
7:14 PM
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I see a lot of fractured 5 draws.
I think a lot of players forget which hole they are on.
For me, the more interesting thing is to be able to produce exact pitches on holes/reeds that fill in the chromatic scale.
I like the sound of bends, and use the "dwah" (it's a scoop, right Winslow?) but not on hole 5.
Believe it or not, I actually recommend NOBODY bend this hole.
But do they listen?
NOOOOOO . . .
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MindTheGap
2249 posts
May 08, 2017
11:17 PM
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That very flat 7th on holes 2 and 5 - that's one of THE characteristic sounds of blues harp isn't it? I'll continue to ignore your advice Gnarly :)
This is where a limited understanding of theory gets in the way Killa. If you start laying down the law (to yourself I mean) about what's 'correct' and ignore what you hear people actually playing. And if you're only using microtones for inflection, you're missing out.
There's a lovely video from Hakan, where he plays a run that includes 5 5' 5+ as separate notes like you'd play 4 4' 4+. In that case it's a rhythmic device: he needs enough notes to fill a pattern. The tuner says 'No', the ears say 'Yes'!
I've heard Kim Wilson get five distinct notes from the 2-hole, for the same reason.
Or similarly one of Charlie Musselwhite's characteristic phrases where he plays 8 and 9 hole blow bends where the 'correct' notes are 8 and 9 draw. The wrong notes sound better than the right notes, in context.
I have heard people criticize these things. If that comes from their emotional response to the music, no problem. If it comes from a misguided insistence on all notes being "in tune like on a piano" then: problem.
Viva Microtones.
To my ears the harp as a 'fretless' instrument (STME58's idea) sounds great. Whereas the harp as a proper 'chromatic' instrument sounds weak. Simple test: I play recordings to my wife of classic blues harp: all is in order. Recordings of 'chromatic' diatonic harp, hmmmm. Half the notes sound wrong, she says. Makes no difference that the player can prove they are 'in tune'.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 09, 2017 12:38 AM
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SuperBee
4684 posts
May 09, 2017
1:03 AM
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The discussion has probably moved on a bit from the OP but I sense a kind of expectation that the tuner might show a different 'letter name' for the note produced by bending the 5 draw. That is, the op seems to be saying there is no 1/4 tone bend because the tuner still says 'F'.
In that regard, the tuner is only gonna show F until you get that note more than 50 cents flat, then it will show E. but that's a fine line and just exactly where it lies depends on from exactly where you start measuring. You can bend it a 1/4 tone and the tuner will still say F, but the needle should show it's a very flat F. Ist it really a very sharp E? Maybe. What's in a name?
I usually tune my 5 draw to be on pitch at a 440hz standard. In context that means it's already a little flat compared to my 2 and 4 draw which are more like 443. I don't bend the 5 much but I do in a couple of places.
As far as breaking the 5 draw, I blame the famous 4/5 shake for that.
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Killa_Hertz
2352 posts
May 09, 2017
4:33 AM
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Yea, I was going to dispute Gnarlys advice, but MTG wrapped it up pretty well.
MTG I don't ONLY use it for inflection. But that's where it is most used for me, I think. And ofcourse triplets such as the one you mentioned. I probably use it more than I think.
I even have a lick (from Ronnie) that starts on the 5' ... (well I have a few, but this is the first one I learned so it stick out in my mind)
5'55' 4+54 3432. It's a pretty good one.
I've never blown a reed (yet)
But even if I had ... it would be worth it, to not give up this sound/note.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 09, 2017 6:13 AM
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