misterjunior
13 posts
May 01, 2017
9:43 AM
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I play harp and trumpet in a four-person band. We play blues, funk, and blues-rock for the most part.
Sometimes, the guitarist and bassist want to play on the rockier side of things, which leaves me high and dry. Right now, there are working on Tightrope by SRV, which doesn't have space for a harp solo that I see, and is a little raucous for a harp to be heard in the background
What is a harp player to do at these times? Go to the bar for a drink until the song is over? Is there a way to approach a louder rock tune and stand toe-to-toe with the string players?
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1847
4093 posts
May 01, 2017
10:09 AM
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it's a 2 chord vamp... lots of room to rock out on that tune.
learn the riff.
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dougharps
1422 posts
May 01, 2017
10:41 AM
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Personally, I love to rock out with songs like this. If the guitar player and I are familiar with each other's playing I will often trade licks at some point. I definitely would want to play a rock solo on this song.
I probably would suggest that the first solo be guitar only. When I learned harp I tried to copy guitar licks before I ever learned classic blues harp. I can play pretty fast lines, but not quite at SRV speed, so I would suggest that I play the first part of the second solo, then let the guitar take over, and maybe trade 4s and/or play a repetitive pattern at the end to add energy, and let the guitar go wild. Overall, whatever part you play has to serve the song.
However, not all harp players feel comfortable with playing rock licks over a fast vamp. You have asked a valid question about what to do. When not soloing on this song (or if I were not going to take a solo at all) this is what I would do:
I would listen to the organ in the background (on the studio version) and try to quietly imitate that part, probably by playing octaves. This has to be in the background, though, because the vocals and the guitar are in the front. Sometimes I play horn licks, sometimes subtle organ fills: it all depends on the song.
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Doug S.
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shakeylee
637 posts
May 01, 2017
12:50 PM
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What's the harp do when the band rocks out?
The harp rocks out.
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www.shakeylee.com
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didjcripey
1078 posts
May 01, 2017
2:30 PM
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our band does a few SRV tunes and I love playing on them. I listen to the solo and try and play it. Then I modify and create bits for what I can't do on the harp. I find a lot of SRV's licks translate really well to harp. You've just got to pick out the main notes and don't worry too much about the blisteringly fast fills. Woodshedding is key.
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Lucky Lester
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slaphappy
272 posts
May 01, 2017
3:28 PM
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if it was me I would bail and go find a band that wants to play real blues. I hates Blues Rock.
sorry, I know that was kind of a dick thing to say but I said it anyway.
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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misterjunior
14 posts
May 01, 2017
3:34 PM
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Thanks for all the advice. You've given me some good ideas and I have some work to do now.
slaphappy, I don't care that much for blue-rock either, and I understand where you're coming from. Like any band, we have our creative disagreements and have to compromise. I have a side project that is more bluesy, a duo with my son.
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Littoral
1466 posts
May 01, 2017
4:29 PM
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Pretty funny y'all - basically F - that. - you rock. That's what you do. Unequivocal. No doubt.
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slaphappy
273 posts
May 01, 2017
4:39 PM
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hah. yeah, Littoral has it right. JUST F'in ROCK!!
yeah, I get it. If we were all as snobby as me we wouldn't get to play very much heh. Sometimes I just reach for the egg shaker when my jam buddies rock out, best I can do without totally switching instruments
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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Littoral
1467 posts
May 01, 2017
5:19 PM
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Oh, props still to the point you clearly already got:
When in doubt lay out.
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LittleBubba
344 posts
May 01, 2017
5:25 PM
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You may want to change your focus, if I may say so. Soloing is a minor part of a harper's job. You have to be able to "comp", and as a trumpet player you will be fine if you think like a trumpet player alot of the time. Accents and fills, accents and fills. This issue requires listening to alot of different backing styles and see what works with your guys. Vamps can inherently cause you to push the tempo and fail to play behind the beat, but that's where your your experience with horn vamping will help.
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The Iceman
3100 posts
May 01, 2017
5:54 PM
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I'm with slaphappy.
If the song/situation is uncomfortable for me on harmonica, I opt out. I love percussion instruments and have no problem adding color with them.
The Iceman
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Tom585
32 posts
May 01, 2017
8:02 PM
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On Stevie Ray's "Change It" I try to play the role of the keyboard. Not exactly, of course. I love playing it - and I get to use fifth position.
Last Edited by Tom585 on May 02, 2017 4:13 PM
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hvyj
3286 posts
May 02, 2017
6:32 AM
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By definition, if you are rocking out, you should not be playing behind the beat.
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Tuckster
1571 posts
May 02, 2017
7:42 AM
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You don't necessarily have to solo on that tune but still be a contributor to it.Just playing the main riff that drives it would work.
The key of the song can also influence if you play it. It's easier on the rock songs in the higher keys because you can play a bit faster.
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BnT
55 posts
May 02, 2017
4:32 PM
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I'm with slaphappy. Mike is a fine harp player and it takes some inner confidence to walk away.
As long as you're playing harp with a guitar-centric or rock oriented band it changes what and how you play. Guitarists who think SRV, Budy Guy or Albert King seldom think in terms of what Robert Lockwood, Louis Myers, or Luther Tucker might do. Listen to Jr. Wells with Buddy vs. with the Aces.
I played with a band during 2014 and the guitarist (an old rocker now describing himself as an American blues guitarist) would go off on 60-84 bar solos the more stoned he was. Eventually I put a rocking chair on stage. When I played I was up. When he went off on the loud or unending I rocked and accompanied when I felt like it. Eventually I quit, deciding to limit myself to playing with blues focused, ensemble players - not rockers who think a 12-bar frame makes anything blues.
Ultimately you end up playing in better (though perhaps less) situations.
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BnT
Last Edited by BnT on May 03, 2017 10:39 AM
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Tuckster
1575 posts
May 02, 2017
5:54 PM
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BnT-I hear you! There was a time where I had a burning desire to play in a band-any band.I had to deal with the exact things you describe. No rocking chair though! That's funny! Fortunately,I didn't know any better and it was a good learning experience. Nowadays,I mostly sit out "guitar god" songs.
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HarpNinja
4246 posts
May 03, 2017
5:15 AM
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SRV is more blues based than straight rock. There is no reason why harp can't add to the song. That being said, playing over the whole thing in a typical blues harp style will get old to the audience quickly, IMHO.
Being able to comp by playing chords, partial chords, and octaves is a very underutilized approach to playing harp.
While many harp players approach harp like a horn - single notes and riffs - I think of it more like a piano or guitar...you have the ability to play rhythm.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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BnT
56 posts
May 03, 2017
11:52 AM
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HarpNinja,
What you've said makes sense. Learning chording, horn parts, and piano fills is an important part of the arsenal. I mean REALLY learn.
Backing parts from Bobby Bland, B..B. King, Albert King, T-Bone Walker and Little Johnny Taylor are killers and work well with SRV songs. So the tools are great.
But when it's' "new song time" if the guitar player never thinks Jody Williams, Jimmy Rodgers, or Eddie Taylor nights of SRV and blues rock get real old and real long.
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BnT
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ScottK
73 posts
May 03, 2017
3:47 PM
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I've been practicing with a rockin band and played with them the first time this past weekend. Right now playing on a handful of led zep songs, and they'd like to ad more tunes with harp including more bluesy stuff that would feature harp. I agree with what others wrote that a SRV song would be great to play on. And working harp into songs that might not traditionally have harp could be great. At this gig I came up for the couple tunes that we all are solid on. Personally I'd be comfortable just leaving the stage and then returning if they played tunes without harp in between ones that didn't. I don't care to be on stage if I'm not playing. It's fun to go into the crowd and watch. However on one of the tunes its not a lot of harp playing, so for the periods I'm not playing a take some step backs to be next to the bassist or drummer, and then step up to front of stage when I'm playing.
Last Edited by ScottK on May 03, 2017 3:59 PM
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HarpNinja
4250 posts
May 05, 2017
7:10 AM
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Elements of this could be an enormous conversation, but it kinda boils down to the fact that harp just isn't that important to anyone...and most genres of live music aren't either.
I can play along with pretty much any guitar player I've ran into in any genre that is of interest to me. I know I have solid chops, gear, and musical understanding. I also try really hard to be easy to work with.
With that being said, it is near impossible to find regular paying work in my part of the world. I could be half the guitar player and play every weekend.
I guess my point is the fact that the rest of the band is open to harp joining in on these tunes is a solid deal.
We all like to think we are entitled to gigging and playing whatever we want, but live music is ultimately a service others are paying for. If the crowd wants SRV too, than my .02 is to give them SRV.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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nowmon
119 posts
May 05, 2017
7:14 AM
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Turn your harp into a chugging percussion train...
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harmonicanick
2551 posts
May 05, 2017
2:26 PM
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You have to be good enough to form your own band and call the tune, get the gigs, and be nice to everybody but demand punctuality, consistence and reliability.
No need to rehearse, just get up there and do it...for the love..
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Hootie61
1 post
Jun 13, 2017
10:50 AM
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Classic Rock is my main thing, and I mostly study guitar solos. I am in a band with 2 other guitarists (so far we've only done open mics), and we try to do songs which allow me to play a harp solo. I am working on the flute solo for Locomotive Breath (Jethro Tull).. it's a work in progress, but hopefully will make em take notice. I also do a Hendrix version of Star Spangled Banner, and am looking into using effects for it.
We do some Allman Brothers songs, and I try to imitate that Dickey Betts style, which comes from his bluegrass background.
I recently started learning to play keyboard, since I would like to be able to contribute in other ways to the band. But the harp can be a good substitute for flute or sax (notably Lee Oskar).
Last Edited by Hootie61 on Jun 13, 2017 10:57 AM
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hvyj
3317 posts
Jun 13, 2017
3:29 PM
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The guitar part to HEROES (the David Bowie tune) is very doable on harp and sounds especially good if you use a flange. The point is you have to think about the instrument and what you can do with it differently. It's not like, for example, playing JUKE. Learning different kinds of scales and using different types of effects also helps.
You also can do really interesting things with effects that respond to technique if you use some imagination. But, again, that's a different thing than using a 5 watt amp and a bullet mic to imitate someone's idea of a "Chicago" blues sound.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 13, 2017 3:31 PM
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Joe_L
2704 posts
Jun 20, 2017
8:37 PM
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Find a different band OR listen to a lot more of the genre of music and figure out how you can fit the harp into that genre.
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jbone
2305 posts
Jun 21, 2017
8:14 AM
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For me it was not much about what to play and fit in, it was about the volume. Either I tried to match volume with my smaller amp, or the pa. If it was something I was singing I would do damage to my voice and harps trying to hear myself. Either way the volume and other incidents in my life had left me with some hearing damage, so it was always a struggle to hear what I was doing next to high volume players.
Eventually I decided, after countless blown reeds and then a polyp on my vocal cord- 6 months no singing or talking loud, it nearly drove me the rest of the way around the bend- it was time to back off and do something more user friendly.
Jolene and I CAN and DO put some volume out but with better dynamics. We don't rattle windows, ever, even with the amps and p.a. If someone wants to hear us better- especially acoustic like on a patio or street- they can come closer.
My voice has never sounded better than the past 3 years or so. My harps last longer too.
So more power to you- literally- if you can find a way to be heard in high volume settings. We're good with 12 watts or no amps at all.
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Reverbnation
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hvyj
3336 posts
Jun 21, 2017
12:45 PM
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Playing at high volume is not significantly harder on harps so long as you have adequately powered amplification. Hard on your hearing--perhaps, but you need to be careful where you stand in relation to the speakers.
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John M G
145 posts
Jun 21, 2017
4:43 PM
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Get a Pro Block 200
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hvyj
3338 posts
Jun 22, 2017
8:59 AM
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Take a look at Adam's JAZZ ACADEMY post. Not a bad approach to use for rocking out at high volume. Can the blues licks. Blow chord tones ON THE ON BEAT reinforcing the rhythm. The harder the band is rocking the less you need to do to make a statement--punctuate. But also leave space. It's a different approach, but that's what playing different styles of music is about. BUT, you either need to use a big boy amp or play thru the PA in order not to get buried. FWIW
BTW, this is one reason why I prefer guitar amps to harp specific amps. IMHO, I can get more cut from a guitar amp when I need it. Of course I don't use a bullet mic either which also may have something to do with it. But, YMMV.
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Goldbrick
1832 posts
Jun 22, 2017
10:22 AM
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Buy a tambourine
Blues rock is neither blues nor rock
Best classic rock is a piece of tanzanite
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chrisjaybecker
13 posts
Jun 22, 2017
8:59 PM
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Turn it up to 11 and... um... Rock out? Just saying...
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hvyj
3361 posts
Jun 30, 2017
10:20 AM
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Last night I went to a blues/R&B jam and played through my Princeton Reverb RI. Then I went and sat in with a guitar player who plays LOUD(but very musical) through a Marshall half stack and i used my Peavey Delta Blues cranked with a Squeal Killer.
I had to blow NO HARDER playing with the loud guitar player than I did earlier in the evening at the jam. The trick is to use adequate amplification. If you use a big boy amp and the right type of mic you can blow softly (breathe thru the harp) and still peel paint off the walls if you need to.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 30, 2017 10:43 AM
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HarpNinja
4255 posts
Jun 30, 2017
11:08 AM
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I use a 1,000W powered monitor and have three types of break up - clean, average, and obnoxious. If it gets loud, I just play clean and can be more than loud enough for any stage.
I comp and either play effect free pretending to be a horn, play chords/octaves with a rotary pedal. I always back way off the volume to where I can just hear myself. In that way, I know I am a texture and not stepping on other instruments.
100% of the time I play my rig and I can hear myself and get compliments for the rotary pedal.
It makes it easy to hide and blend in without just standing there, lol.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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