Hi everybody, this is my first post. As my user name suggests, my name is Nick (Nicola) and I live in Italy. I play harp since many years and I'm currently using a Fender Super Champ (Rivera years), 10" speaker about 16W. I'm very happy with it: small, light and yet with enough power for small-mid gigs and not very loud bands (it also has a line-out). I'm now looking for a more powerful amp (max 25W), price range 700-1000 USD and I'd like to hear from you. This is my list:
- HG Double Trouble (maybe not enough power?) - Sonny Jr. Cruncher (still in production?) - Mini Meteor (quite expensive...) - Memphis 20 (not shipping to Europe for the time beign) - Mission Delta Sonic Pro or 32-20 (maybe the best choice if I can get in touch with them..)
Any suggestion on other brands, models...etc?
Thanks
Last Edited by Nick Italy on Mar 23, 2017 8:57 AM
I am extremely happy with my Peavey Delta Blues. 1x15, 30 watts with reverb (and tremelo, which I don't use). You need to swap out the preamp tubes and replace them with AT7 DW7 AT7 (or ECC81 ECC832 ECC81). Sounds great and once you learn how to dial it in you can get Chicago style dirt/distortion or warm clean tone. Sounds great at high or low volume. Sounds great with or without pedals.
I do about 35 or so gigs a year and I also have a Fender Super Reverb Reissue and a Princeton Reverb Reissue. The Peavey can get louder before feedback than the Super and can be used for lower volume gigs that I would ordinarily play with the Princeton without being overkill. VERY versatile amp once you learn how to dial it in. It is not like a Fender, so if you are used to a Fender there will be a learning curve.
The amp has as much punch and balls as any harp specific amp, but has more high end than most harp specific amps, which I like since I think most harp specific amps tend to sound muddy.
Of the other amps you are considering, the Double Trouble isn't that much of a step up in power and to my ear sounds muddy. The Meteor has a great distorted sound, but is not versatile doesn't do clean at all. The Mini Meat may not be enough of a step up in power for you, though. The Sonny is very well regarded but needs to have just the right tube combination. I don't like it that well, but many other players do. I am unimpressed with the Memphis Mini. They are feedback machines and I would speculate that the new 20 would not be enough of a step up in power for you. There's a local harp player I know who has a Mission (I don't know what model) and it sounds pretty good.
You don't say what type of mic you use, and that makes difference. Personally, I do not use a bullet mic and that no doubt affects my evaluation of amps. The Peavey Delta Blues is at the low end of your price range.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 23, 2017 7:22 AM
I've never heard of a Fender Deluxe Champ. Rivera-era Fender made two "Champ" amps, the Super Champ (with reverb and a lead boost) and the simpler Champ II. Both amps are rated at 18 watts.
I've used both amps for harp.
I don't honestly think that 25-watt amp would give you much more real volume over your champ. If you need to be louder, I'd go up to the 30-to-40 watt range.
Hi guys and thanks for taking the time to answer me.
@hvyj: I am very much into the Fender sound, owned a Delta Blues 2x10 for about 1 week and then sold it because I could not get the right sound, but ok good suggestion, if I'll be able to try a 1x15 Peavy I'll let you know the result (I'm only using bullet mics with different elements, crystals, shure black cr, white cm)
@timeistight you are right it's the Super Champ, my fingers were not in line with my mind...sorry for that
Ok 25W will not make a difference. what would you suggest in 30-40W range level?
Last Edited by Nick Italy on Mar 23, 2017 9:13 AM
On the Peavey DB 1x15 you MUST swap out the preamp tubes or it is unusable for harp. I have no idea what it would sound like using a bullet mic.
I most often use mine with the bass at 11 or 12 o'clock and the treble and midrange completely off. But for distortion, I turn on the boost, and set the mids at 9o'clock and the treble at 8o'clock. When I am setting up for distortion, I use a squeal killer anti feedback and no other pedals. My usual mic is a low-z 545 Ultimate through a pedalboard with no anti feedback device. But if I am setting up for distortion I use a hi-z 545 Ultimate with a vintage element or an Audix D-1 snare drum mic with a Blows me Away in line volume control. Both of these mics have a somewhat attenuated high frequency response (in practice, not by way of specs) that works well with the tube distortion--I am not creating distortion with the mic.
The DB is voiced bright so the large 15" speaker does not sound at all muddy or boxy. It's a really good combination.
In general,I think the wattage range you are after would be 30-50 watts. Happy hunting!
@hvyj: yes I already tried the preamp tubes swap on the 2x10 Delta Blues but did not get any result, as you say it's a different amp from Fender and it takes time and patience it's not my strong point... :-) I always wanted to try the Ultimate 545, but I'm so used to bullet mics in terms of sound that I'm afraid of wasting money
@timeistight: already owned a Bassman RI, not for me, too big, too loud, too hard to make it sound decent to my hears
2x10 vibroverb it's something I've already considered in the past. As "big amp" I now have the (in)famous Twin Red Knobs...terrific sound but way too heavy.
Just to know, what do you think about harmonica- specifically built - amps?
I did not know that the line out could drive another amp....so I could maybe get a VHT or another small amp and add it to the Super Champ when needed?
I own one of these. It will be the last amp that I ever sell. It sounds great. It's pretty damn loud for the size. It's very toneful. If you've got a good sound, it's a great choice unless you are playing with a rock band.
- Sonny Jr. Cruncher (still in production?)
Very nice sounding amp. Super toneful, but not incredibly loud. I haven't owned one of these, but I have played through several of them.
- Mini Meteor (quite expensive...)
I owned one of these. I couldn't get a clean sound out of it. The Double Trouble was louder, cleaner, more feedback resistant, lighter and smaller. The one I owned had a pair of 8" and a single 10" speakers. It had that size and weight of a Bassman, but the usable volume was limited. The Double Trouble did everything better, so I sold the Mini Meteor. It did look really cool upholstered in red tweed with gold grill cloth.
- Memphis 20 (not shipping to Europe for the time beign)
Never seen or heard one.
- Mission Delta Sonic Pro or 32-20 (maybe the best choice if I can get in touch with them..)
I own a MIssion 32-20. It's very toneful and quite loud. I think the 32-20 is probably the loudest amp of the group. I really enjoy this amp. Mine has a single 12" speaker. It's a little bigger than a Blues Jr. It's almost as loud as a Bassman without the size or weight. This amp has a lot of knobs and switches. It has a zillion sounds in it.
Hi Joe and thanks for the detailed info. I will probably try to get a Missioni 32-20 maybe 2x10 or, if available 2x8 + 1x10. I will try once again to get in touch with them (Sent and e-mail about a week ago But never got an answer)
What about the WEZO ME 18? About the same output as the Mission 32/20. I can see this is well above the quoted price range but does anyone have any experience with this amp.
I have a WEZO ME-18. Great amp, lots of tonal flexibility you can dial in to your liking. As much breakup as you could ever want or can be pretty clean. Very feedback resistant. I had a headphone jack and headphone volume control added to mine. I like the Wezo better than my harpgear double trouble, the only thing I'd change about my Wezo is that I'd prefer a pine cabinet, but I bought the amp used so....
That said, the Wezo combo costs nearly twice as much at the DT, so way out of the OP's stated price range. Megatone did just announce a lower priced WEZO ME-18 head only for $1300., but you'd still need a cabinet. Could be a great option for some folks though.
Save yourself a lot of frustration thinking you can find something better and get the best there is, the SJ Super Cruncher. Pretty sure Gary still makes them to order. It might cost you a bit more than your stated budget but considering you will never have to buy another amp to fill some unmet tonal need AND there is little if any depreciation, in the the long term the Super Cruncher is much better value for money than anything else mentioned. As one time Charlie Musslewhite amp tech Bill Webb once said to me in all seriousness, "It's a work of art."
Oh and one other really important point, you will find no one on the planet who provides better customer service. When you call it's Gary who picks up the phone. He'll even listen to your playing and give advise based on that. And BTW, of all the makes mentioned Gary is the only one who is a seriously kick ass harmonica player in his own right and the most obsessed with harp tone human being you will ever run across.
---------- LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Apr 02, 2017 12:43 PM
My EH 44 Magnum amp played through a small cab with an Eminence 10" 8 ohm Lil' Buddy speaker is very light and generates mid sized amp volume with my Shure 58SAV mic, (which is a pretty feedback resistant combination).
When I want even more volume I can drag out my heavier 12" 8 ohm Cannabis Rex speaker/cab to use with the 44 Magnum amp instead of the Lil' Buddy. I have used the Lil' Buddy on a number of occasions when playing with Kilborn Alley Blues Band at a local venue. The little amp/speaker combination cuts through their fairly loud sound in a smaller mid-sized room.
The Quilter Microblock 45 really intrigues me as a light weight option with power, but so far the EH 44 Magnum I already own does the job when I don't bring out my bulkier and heavier tube amps.
If the 44 Magnum generates 22 watts RMS through an 8 ohm speaker and the Quilter Microblock 45 generates 30 watts RMS through an 8 ohm speaker there will not be a huge difference in volume, if any that is detectable at all. If you push 2 speakers and combine them for a 4 ohm load, the Quilter would probable push more air and be louder than the EHX 44 Mag. The 44 Mag can only handle 8 and 16 ohm loads, with the 8 ohm load generating the most power. ----------
25 W is no louder than the Super Champ you play now. I have the Revera/Fender Champ II and it is loud with a Copperhead in it. Get an early 59 Bassman RI with the blue alnicos and put in a 5U4 rectifier. You can thank me later...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Apr 04, 2017 12:12 AM
Everyone else seems to be missing the point of the OP: he likes the tone of his 18-watt Super Champ but he needs more volume in certain circumstances. He isn't going to get a noticeable increase in volume unless he goes up to 35 watts at least.
Rian/LSB: Wezo 18 way too expensive :-) LSC: great endorsment on Super Cruncher. I'll try to get in touch with Gary...no answer from Mission Amps so far.... Barley Nectar: already had a Bassman RI with blue alnicos...not my cup of tea...couldn't get the right sound out of it Timeistight: what about a small 5/10W amp maybe with 2x8" - Super Champ Line out > small amp low imput
Last Edited by Nick Italy on Apr 07, 2017 8:45 AM
Just saw also the HG35...not bad... Anyway I understand that to get a 30/35W amp in US is around 1,500 USD (at least), which makes around 1,400 EUR + 22% VAT + shipping and customs.... more than 2,000 EUR...too expensive. I should probably buy an European custom made amp like the Marble Harpwood (http://www.marble-amps.com/amps/harp/harpwood/) or the Italian Bluexlab 30W (http://www.bluexlab.com/WP/?p=1124)
Last Edited by Nick Italy on Apr 07, 2017 8:46 AM
You can mic or line out your amp to the PA, or use a powered speaker or monitor if you want more on-stage volume that you can control. I have used a 10 Watt tube amp mic'd to a powered 10" monitor successfully to generate more volume.
You could also use the powered speaker or monitor as a small PA by adding a small mixing board for small venue gigs. ----------
Nick Italy: Yeah I see Gary doesn't put up any info on the site now. But his contact info is there. I'll send him an email as well and let him know. He is usually very good at getting back to people but he's had ongoing health issues that may be playing up. I haven't talked to him in awhile.
The Super Cruncher runs 35 watts, if memory serves. Uses an array of speakers, all Weber alnico; an 8" Signature, an 8" Classic, and a 12" Classic.
The electronics run a Copper Cap rectifier, 2x 12AU7, 1x AT7, 2x 6V6. The preamp tubes are NOS Phillips and the power tubes are GTs.
There are two channels which are set up for either crystal or magnetic elements and are bridgeable. Separate volume controls, bass, middle, treble, presence. The presence is actually preset so the presence actually works more for cut. Not frequencies but getting that edge to cut through the mix. The tone controls are wonderful. They actually work with small adjustments bringing noticeable change but very smooth. Nothing just jumps out at you. There is a line out but I've never had a sound guy choose it when offered. I don't even tell them anymore.
There are various ways to use the 4 inputs into the two channels both bridged and not. Gary provides a manual and suggestions as to a starting point but what I find particularly great is the amp has so much flexibility and range of tones you can tailor it to your own requirements. Very responsive amp as well. Forces you to be a better player because there is no way in hell you can blame the amp for sub par tone. Nothing to hide behind. But at the same time sounds so damn good and responsive it inspires you to be that better player and makes it easier.
Gary designs his amps but has them built by Mojotone to his very exacting specifications. The lacquered tweed is a proprietary finish, seven coats I think, developed by Gary and is just jaw dropping. It just glows. I've had no end of people stop dead in their tracks and give me the "What the hell is that! Build quality is as good as it gets. Insane attention to detail. It really is a piece of industrial art.
I can cite loads of people who love his amps including Greg Heumann, who actually wrote a piece about his journey to arrive at discovering Sonny Jr amps.
Sorry if I banged on a bit long. I spent several year constantly trying this and that, buying and selling amps including a load of vintage tube PAs, and various combos, constantly upgrading. When I finally decided to go the boutique route I looked at three of the four specialist builders available at the time. I almost went with a popular brand mentioned on this forum but found the tone of the answer to a simple question didn't sit with me nor bode well for customer service so I carried on and discovered Sonny Jr. So glad I did. Gary has on occasion with me gone so far above and beyond it's just a bit nuts. I know some of what he's done for others a rational businessman wouldn't even think of but Gary doesn't think business so much but is obsessed by tone and producing literally the best harp amps in the world. Personally, I think he succeeded, though others would disagree. I'm on my 2nd Super Cruncher having sold the first to buy the bigger Avenger and then finding a deal on the 2nd one I couldn't pass up. I'll choose which one depending on the size of the venue. The SC is great for most club gigs and I'll go to the big gun for festivals and such.
I think you can contact me direct by clicking on the username link. ---------- LSC ---------- LSC
Timeistight: what about a small 5/10W amp maybe with 2x8" - Super Champ Line out > small amp low imput
You want to run the line out in to something loud and clean, like a PA system or a solid state keyboard amp. Running it in the signal before the amps, ideally using an active splitter like the Lone Wolf Terminator, and run them in parallel. I doubt you'll notice much increase in volume, but at least the will be manageable.
You clearly don't believe me about needing a lot more power to get a bit louder. Maybe you'll believe what Greg Heumann wrote in his All About Harmonica Microphones...and Then Some:
Maybe you simply need a bigger amp! The dB defined.
Without getting too technical, the decibel, or “dB” is the unit of measure for “sound pressure level” or SPL. Because it is expressed on a logarithmic scale, it can be a little bit confusing. As an example, a doubling of volume is not equal to twice the number of dB. Studies have shown that most humans cannot detect a difference of volume of less than 3dB. Yet it takes twice the power for a 3dB increase in SPL. Now here’s the thing. To double the volume (an increase of 10dB), we need ten times the power! Hypothetically, your 5W amp might make 93db – which is freakishly loud in your living room. But to hear on stage with a typical live band you need about 103dB– that’s an increase of 10dB. Therefore – going from a 5W amp to a 15W amp isn’t going to do the job. You need 50W. (Yes, everyone should play more quietly – there’s no reason to play that loud, etc. etc. If you have your own band you have some control. If you don’t, you don’t. I have a sound pressure level meter and I have used it in live settings. The above numbers are indeed very realistic.)
More Speaker, too
As power goes up, so should speaker surface area. Trying to push 50 W through a single 12 inch speaker usually results in harshness of tone and less air movement. More speakers, given sufficient power, increase volume because they move more air. Doubling the number of speakers produces about a 2dB increase in SPL for the same power. Compare both power and the surface area of the speakers on different amps. A Fender Blues Jr, is a 15 watt amp with a single 12” speaker – if you do your “Pi r2” you’ll know it has 113 sq. in. of speaker surface area. My Sonny Jr. Cruncher is about 35 watts, and has a 12” and two 8” speakers. That’s 213.5 sq. in of speaker surface area – more than twice as much power and almost twice as much speaker area. I can get the volume on that amp to 9 with no feedback because it is built to be harp friendly. But even that isn't loud enough at some of the jams I go to. If I want to be heard at a get the volume on that amp to 9 with no feedback because it is built to be harp friendly. But even that isn't loud enough at some of the jams I go to. If I want to be heard at a jam, I bring out the big guns. My Sonny Junior “Avenger” amp has about 50 watts, and has a 12” speaker, a 10 inch speakers and two 8” speakers. A little more power, but another big jump in speaker surface area - 292 sq. inches to be exact. The difference is huge. Room filling volume, and again, completely manageable feedback!
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 07, 2017 9:20 PM
Nick Italy: I heard from Gary aka Sonny Jr. If you're still interested he has one left in stock and two Avengers. Won't be building anymore for sometime. Contact me if you need more info. ---------- LSC
Nick Italy - Keep looking and trying out amps. I had a Sonny Jr. Cruncher and my two observations were that it was under-powered (Gary may have a larger transformer in the Super Cruncher) and that because Gary changes his pricing based on wanting to sell more product or having less available - the amp you buy can quickly drop resale value.
I don't have a lot of amps - a Bassman for big venues, a (1947) Silvertone 1300 for small venues, and a (1945) Masco A-17 for the best tone. But there seem to be a lot of current production amps - Mission, Meteor, HarpGear, etc. that may meet your needs and hold their value. ---------- BnT
timeistight: I do belive you, it's just that I do not want to go over my budget and try to find a money-saving option...please remember that I have to pay import duties and 22% VAT on everything I buy in US....
BnT: thanks for the advice, I'll keep it in mind
Adam: you're out of thread :-)-just joking
Last Edited by Nick Italy on Apr 11, 2017 6:51 AM
Nick Italy wrote: "I should probably buy an European custom made amp like the Marble Harpwood (http://www.marble-amps.com/amps/harp/harpwood/) or the Italian Bluexlab 30W (http://www.bluexlab.com/WP/?p=1124) ..."
==============
I can highly recommend Marble amps. I've had the same Marble Max since 2003. GREAT amp and extremely loud for its size. I can gig with it unmiked (with electric guitar, bass, drums) in a room that holds about 100 people. If I need more volume, I just mic it or run a line out to the PA. I can only assume that their Harpwood model is a stone-cold beast.
