I'm sure this has been discussed before, but please give your opinion of the Sjoeberg tuning table, sold on the Masterharp website. Beyond the standard "You don't need that" response, what is the evaluation of those who tune and customize their own harps personally, as well as those who do so for a living? Have you seen one up close? Have you used one? Would you wish to have one if you could? There are several different tuning devices used, but does this one impress you, and why or why not? I would be especially interested in opinions from pros like Tom Halchak, Andrew Zajak, and Richard Sleigh. I've got a chance to own one, and would like to benefit from the experience of those who have seen and/or used them, as to whether they would desire to have one if they could, and why or why not. Thank you very much for any constructive input and insight you can provide.
Last Edited by Garlic Breath on Mar 07, 2017 8:59 PM
I would like to try it, but haven't gotten the nerve up to pull the trigger yet. I'm pretty good at tuning, but this would make things faster. Roguie Ray LaMontagne has one, I think he likes it--I will ask.
I do not have a Sjoeberg Tuning Table. I do think there is one in my future. So, I will be as interested in reading the responses to your post as anyone else – perhaps more so. I have seen videos about it. I know that Kenya Pollard uses one and there are not many guys more respected that he is.
The questions I have about it really revolve around the issue of mechanical tuning – vs. human tuning. I cannot speak for any of the others who build harps but from my perspective, everything I do to a reed as I am building and tuning a harp affects the pitch of the harp. Look at the basic practices we engage in. Installing a custom comb – changes the pitch. Flat sanding a draw plate – changes the pitch. Embossing the reed slot – changes the pitch. Centering the reed in the slot – changes the pitch. Profiling the reed – changes the pitch. Adjusting the gap – changes the pitch. I think it is a fair assumption that the best harp builders are also pretty good players. How can you build an overblow harp if you can’t overblow? To my way of thinking, a tuning table can only do so much. Once you install the reed plates on the comb and add the covers, things change. The minor adjustments you make once you have the opportunity to play the harp and hear/feel how it responds to you, a real human, cannot be duplicated by a machine. That’s just me. Perhaps some will disagree with this. I am very interested in reading their opinions on this.
My frame of reference comes in part from watching a couple of videos that maybe some of you have seen. The first is a “How its made – Harmonicas” episode put out by The Discovery Channel. It is only 5 minutes long.
And another very similar video produced by Seydel.
In the first video, what stands out to me is how little time is spent tuning the reed plates (by ear mind you) and after the harp is fully assembled how they are tested simply by running air through them via bellows. Couple that with the fact that Out of the Box harmonicas are rarely, if ever, in tune and it leads me to conclude that this is not the best way to tune a harp. This is probably not a fair comparison to competent harp tech, taking his time, using a Sjoeberg Tuning Table with a Strobe Tuner. But in the end, it is not the machine that makes the music. It is a human. So I think it can be a useful tool, but not a replacement for a human who can tune the harp under real playing conditions.
The best person to tune the harp is the one who will be doing the playing, simulating a playing situation. The tuning table gives you a different environment. It would be useful, but not the arbiter--"The proof of the pudding is in the tasting." That is why I have not yet made the purchase, I get good results without one.
The tuning table is really great when you need to make lots of exact duplicates of a reed plate - such as is shown in the first video. The reed being adjusted is tuned reed by reed to match the master plate.
But how do you make the master plate? That's the real challenge. In contrast to mass-production, to the player tuning his or her harps, every single plate is a master plate.
I have one,one with the master plate function. not had time to really use it yet. Surely tuning to a similar plate from a harp that is tuned as desired , out of covers, would produce similar results when both plates are returned to the repective harps. That's what I am hoping for anyway.
Mine is an older model, which doesn't provide a master plate option.
The table provides a good work platform. It also takes condensation out of the equation. There is a learning curve involved in using it. Imho most useful for blow plates. There are more efficient ways to tune draw plates.
Great responses so far. I have Richard Sleigh's "Hotrod Your Harmonica" video, and Andrew has some really great Youtube videos on many aspects of harp customizing and tuning. I would love to see similar videos of Tom's processes. Since this tuner is very expensive, it would have to present someone just learning to service and tune his own harps with a great savings of time, frustration, and confusion. Top notch harp servicing tools seem to sometimes become unavailable, due to sourcing problems, and since the customer base is somewhat limited. I would hate to miss out on any well made tools that make the learning and production process go easier. Could you recommend the best "Plan B" tuning tool to achieve success both in final result, and ease of use? Also, has anyone put together a complete set of every tool and fastener needed to get started with replacing reeds, shaping, adjusting and tuning? I would love to have a set which would serve me well long into the future, as my skills grow. Thanks again for your input, and keep it coming!
One problem I have with the Tuner. I don't tune my own harmonicas, but I had an experienced professional offer to teach me. I learned that my embouchure is not... ideal, to say the least. So, if I can't do the proper embouchure to tune a harp, what does it matter? If a proper tuned harp doesn't play the proper notes when I play, why bother? This subject has been bothering me for awhile not. Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Phil - don't give up! Playing the harmonica is a journey. Who says you "can't do the proper embouchure"? You have been hanging out on this site for a long time and you have seen numerous accounts by players who have learned how to tongue block after being pucker players for decades - myself included. I am not saying that TB vs LP is the "proper embouchure". I'm just using that as an illustration of how people have adapted to an embourchure which was once foreign to them. You are fortunate that you have been able to get some good advice from a respected professional but don't let that one comment defeat you. As they say, the first step to solving a problem is identifying exactly what the problem is. You now have a reference point. March onward! ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
I think the tuner kind of takes embouchure out of the equation as well.
I mean obviously it comes back into play once you put the harp in your mouth but when you are tuning with the Sjoeberg it's a variable that's pretty much eliminated.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
slaphappy - I kinda sorta disagree with your statement that the tuning variable has been eliminated. I am very willing to be proven wrong on this. But the entire gist of my post is that a tuning table, being used to tune one reed at a time, does not simulate a human actually breathing through a completely built harp with all the subtle nuances that are inherently present. I think a tuning table would be a good first step to get a set of plates in the neighborhod but that additional tuning with the plates mounted on a comb and with the covers on is absolutely necessary. But... like I said, I am willing to be proven wrong. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
I agree with that, I'm just saying when the plates are on the table, you don't really have to worry about whether your embouchure is affecting the pitch since you are using a tube to move air through the device. For me, this helped a lot as I was never sure in the beginning if it was me or the reed that was slightly sharp or flat..
don't give me too much credit, I'm still not a very advanced harp tech but do have some experience using the Sjoeberg
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
You can still alter pitch by the way you breathe when using the tuner. But as long as you do it the same way each time it's manageable.
Tom, the way I manage that issue is to first measure the pitch of each reed by playing the assembled harp while watching a pitch measuring tuner, then comparing the pitch on the table. I then tune the reed to take account of the difference.
Thanks Superbee. That is good info. I assume you are referring to a stock harp which is fully assembled. Then you test and make notes. Then you disassemble and test on the Sjoeberg table. Then you adjust the pitch on each reed according to the difference between where it is and where you want it to be. Do I have that right?
What about the other adjustments you might make such as flat sanding the draw plate, adjusting the gaps, centering off-centered reeds, embossing and reed profiling which will also affect the pitch of the reeds? Plus, in my case, essentially 100% of the harps I build go on custom combs, so that is another variable.
Do you first do all or some of the work listed above, then assemble the harp, test, take notes, then disassmble so that you can put the reed plates on the tuning table?
Please enlighten me.
Thanks. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Mar 10, 2017 8:08 AM
Tuning is the second last thing I do, so yes, once all other adjustments are done and harp is playing to my satisfaction, assemble harp and measure tuning, disassemble and measure plate on table, tune, reassemble, test, repeat as necessary until satisfied. Disassemble, Clean parts, reassemble, test on bellows, if all seems well, ship. The point is, it's the assembled harp which is the measure of success, not the plate on the table.
Seems like a lot of work to me. But you are an intelligent guy so I guess you have your reasons. My guess is that you legitimately feel that doing it that way delivers better results than other methods you have tried. I don'think I cold buy into that routine - but that's just me. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
No, I don't do it to get better results. I don't stop until I have the result I need. I use it when I think it will be the easiest way to get the result. Im not usually really happy to tune blow reeds while they're assembled on the comb, so if I have to make changes while the harp is disassembled, the table seems at least as easy as any other way.
This seems to be the appropriate place for a tuning question. I had a customizer offer to teach me how to tune. My embouchure never seemed to be right. He would tune a harp, and it would be dead on, but when I blew the notes I could never get it to read correctly on the tuner. The Soejberg seems like it would eliminate that problem, by taking the embouchure out of the equation. But If my embrochure is off, then wouldn't a tuned harp sound off when I play it? What would be the benefit of a properly tuned harp if I don't play properly?
If you *know* the harp is good then you can fix yourself.
Barrett says we tune our mouths to each note on the harp and I've found this to be true especially WRT to embouchure and intonation on the first 4 holes.
BTW, 1847 yes the Sjoeberg works only by inhaling through the tube.
Also, there are serveral good videos on the Sjoeberg at Bluesharmonica.com by Kinya Pollard that are worth checking out if you want more info
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Mar 12, 2017 10:32 AM
Thanks for the words on your use of the table. So many folks using it so many different ways. If any one here is interested in a draft version of our manual and or my comments on this topic you can access here:
SuperBee: Yikes 4573 posts! OMG! A true SuperUser!
Embouchure: The harmonica is an incredibly personal instrument indeed. As far as I know it is the only one that is played on the draw as well as the blow.
It seems that it wouldn't be that difficult to design a jig that in essence would be a harmonica comb replacing the table in such a tuning machine.
Any of these devices, including Andrew's ingenious and time-saving French Tuner, will get you close but in the end you'll have to do the final tuning with the reed plates on the comb.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Superbee said: "The point is, it's the assembled harp which is the measure of success, not the plate on the table." Michelle and others said something similar.
I agree! Reed tuning changes once it is linked to the resonance chamber of the combined comb and mouth cavities. And the mouth cavity is variable...
We deliberately alter reed pitch dramatically by changing the mouth cavity when we bend notes, but even small changes in your embouchure can affect reed pitch by a few cents.
Every player has a unique default mouth cavity shape/volume and breath pressure. That's partly defined by Nature (the mouth shape we're born with), but also by practice over time. It's partly what makes every player's tone different.
Besides mouth shape, it's well known that very light breath will make reeds play right up to their highest pitch, and hard breath pressure even with the same embouchure will flatten them slightly. That means hard blowers should have harps tuned sharper than very light players.
In a perfect world, every harmonica player would have the skills, time and inclination to fine-tune their own harps to their unique micro-preference. Failing that (though impractical), a player getting harps tuned by a customiser should be there while it's done to test the reeds so the customiser can adjust the tuning to make them play in tune with their particular embouchure/breath pressure.
Because of these variable human factors, harmonica reed tuning is not an exact science. It's NOT like turning on a sine wave or a reference tone on a tuner and setting it precisely. Reeds on the bare reedplate don't come out like reeds on a harp in the mouth.
Therefore, though I admire the design and ingenuity of all good harmonica tuning machines (the old factory bellows ones, the modern factory laser tuners, and home tuners like the Sjoeberg), ultimately harmonica tuning can only be really made just right after the plates are on the comb and in the mouth. And even then, it will vary depending on the player.
The best idea is for every serious player to learn to fine-tune their own harps to get them just as they like. With a bit of practice it's not difficult, and there is heaps of information out there on how to do it.
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Mar 19, 2017 8:05 PM
Brendan Power wrote: "The best idea is for every serious player to learn to fine-tune their own harps to get them just as they like. With a bit of practice it's not difficult, and there is heaps of information out there on how to do it." That is exactly what I think. I believe I do a good job of tuning, but if a player blows hard (I do not), I think they might be less pleased with my work. Fortunately, no one has complained--but if they did, I would gladly adjust the harp. The way I usually put it is, "There is no one who is in a better position to tune your harmonica than you, because you will be the one playing it." I had an opportunity to do some fine tuning of chromatic for a fine player here in San Diego, Tripp Sprague. I convinced him to let me show him how to do it, and gifted him a sanding wand. That was at least half a dozen years ago, and I haven't heard from him since. Bet he's doing it right! Here he is, from last year.
Yes indeed, tuning an instrument that is so closely dependent on embouchure and approach to playing makes tuning a very personal thing. There are no magic bullets when it come down to it.
My hope is that the tables I build make it easier and faster to know what is actually possible with those incredibly sensitive reeds. Knowing what is possible without a table, for me at least, the cycle of tuning hand to mouth to table to tool to scrape / file to hand to mouth (repeat ad nauseam) is extremely restrictive. I want to do only what is necessary. That is indeed a personal thing.
With a small amount skill and practice using a valved bellows or diaphragm breathing table enabled repeat-ability can be a huge time saver. Got a plate that is dialed in just so? Put it on the table, sound and log the results. Want to clone that plate? Apply the recorded results to the plate again. And by the way, you did not remove the plate to your mouth for testing during that tuning process, fast. On assembly perfect? Maybe for you it is, for others maybe not and they will need to do some work on the assembled harmonica but guess what? You will be doing less of it.
For me in the end all tools and methods around tuning and customizing need to be considered. And for me, a tuning table injects serous fun and speed into an otherwise laborious process.
Nope, the table is not a cheap thing. Because of that I give you time to know if it is worth something to you. With many sold and none returned (except one for repair) there are a many folks out there digging the experience of a Sjoeberg table.
Bottom line is that a table is not for everyone, it is a personal preference, one means of many to get to a good place in your playing and or customizing process.
I think you can buy harmonica tuner self replicators on Amazon.com. Buuutt.. if your master harp is a little out of tune you'll wind up w/ a whole buncha clones that are out of tune. So, be very careful and it does take practice. ---------- Have good day. M.A.P. .
How about a comb that breaks in half so you can fasten both plates to their respective halves and snap it together (okay, I told myself I wasn't going to say magnets, but magnets in the end could hold the comb together really nicely if you had two machined metal parts and the magnets were embedded.)
That would let you switch between tuning and testing faster. (Ultimately that's what I decided my magnetic lid snaps were best for too).
The table looks fantastic. I would love to have one to play with; however, using something like Andrew's tool (the French Tuner) will get you there by keeping how you manage the flow in and out of the harp in the tuning process. As you tune, you get immediate feedback as to how the reed will resonate (post tune scratching) using your level of "suck or blow," so to speak.
@Phil -
As to embouchure, I would not get caught up in this. In my opinion, it is easy to change. At one time, I would consistently LP the first three hole and TB the rest unless bending. Then a professional told me about tongue blocking the whole thing. I took his advice; however, in the process of learning how to TB the whole harp, I would just do a few runs of whatever passage I was playing on different variations of lip/tongue connection, but keeping in mind what is going in the cavity behind my teeth. Soon it became an unconscious thing to interchange connection. Now in practice, if I am trying to build a lick, I generally lip purse the passage to "find my spot," so to speak. Then I figure out which side of my mouth will give me the most economy of motion. Being able to interchange the connection easily will also give you great returns on the Chro.
Last Edited by Chris Sachitano on Apr 05, 2017 9:41 AM
