I don't know if it's technically the same...but when I took Charlie McCoy lessons the amount of time he spent on how to bend a note was near zero. Nothing about you have to do this that or the other thing with your tongue, toes or nose. I think he just does it with his breathing...presumably through his throat unless he has another way to breathe his notes.
eventually it turns out there are many ways to"bend" a note... might be why there are so many opinions on which is the "right way"
There is an excellent reason to acquire the ability to enlist the back of the tongue, and the throat and jaw muscles as parts of your "bending toolkit" -- tongue blocking.
If your tongue is anchored to the harp, you can't bend with normal vowel articulations like "eeeee" and "ooooh."
And, if you can't tongue block, you are only "firing on one cylinder" when it comes to playing harmonicas.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
I attended Winslow and Jason’s Harmonica Collective up in Indianapolis a couple of years ago. I went as a student and not a vendor, which was a nice change for me. I got to feed the creative side of my brain for once. But I digress. I came away from that experience determined to, once and for all, learn how to tongue block. Mind you, at that point I had been a pucker player for 43 years. Sure, I used my tongue to play octaves and splits but that is not the same as tongue blocking. Tongue blocking involves playing single notes and learning to bend …………… using your throat, or perhaps the back of your tongue, rather than your lips and the front of your tongue. It was very difficult for me at first. It was as though I had never played before. I literally had to use my fingers to push my tongue over to the side in order to play a clean single note out of the side of my mouth. I’m kind of embarrassed to even admit that, but it is true. I had Spastic Tongue Disorder or something. I dunno. Once I gor comfortable with playing single notes, then I practiced lifting my tongue off the harp and putting it back down. I guess it is called a Tongue Slap where you go from playing a 3-hole chord to a single note.
But the topic being discussed here is throat bending. As I was learning, I progressed from playing single notes up and down the harp to bending. Once again, Spastic Tongue Disorder kicked in. Tongue blocking encourages a wide open sloppy wet kiss embouchure. Playing bent notes while lip pursing requires a constriction of your lips and precise movements of the tip of your tongue. The two do not go together. It was very difficult for me to learn to keep my lips and the tip of my tongue relaxed and bend the note using the back of my mouth and throat. Almost like swallowing. It is a totally different animal.
I am still not as proficient at bending via tongue blocking as I am lip pursing. I tip my hat to the guys who can and do playing 100% lip pursing. Me? I use both. I switch back and forth all the time depending on what I am playing. I am definitely more comfortable lip pursing on holes 1 and 2, particularly if it involves bending but from about 3 on up I am comfortable either way. I still have not mastered blow bending while tongue blocking and I can’t even come close to hitting an overblow or overdraw while tongue blocking so I’m just all over the place. I do think that is kind of the “wave of the future”. I don’t know of any overblow player whose preferred technique is tongue blocking on the overblow and overdraws.
Regarding Todd Parrott. Todd is uber-talented and one of my favorite harp players on the planet. But he is not famous for his Chicago Blues.
The essence of bending is from tongue position in the mouth. When you say "k", the tongue arches towards the roof of the mouth in its back 1/3 or so. Moving that target spot from "k" to "rrrr" to "d" will start to give you an awareness of how to move that reference point on the roof of your mouth forward and backward. (or say "TDK" and notice your tongue placement)
It is very minimal muscle movement that gives you maximum results once you find your sweet spots.
Those that focus on the throat seem to eventually get to bending, but the focus is misdirected and you will use more effort than is necessary. You may achieve the correct tongue position, but it will be bundled with a lot of unnecessary movement.
In the past, the mind set was "Bending? Uh, it takes years to perfect".
The reality is that a rank beginner can bend to exact pitch and hold it (all normal inhale and exhale bends) under control within a week or two of being introduced to the most efficient concept working with an excellent teacher.
My current (former) beginner student went to Augusta Heritage Blues Week in WV last July and took the beg/int style classes. He became frustrated with the teacher (who was teaching bending the old fashioned way = EEEE YO style). Other students couldn't bend, so he would secretly meet with a few after class and introduce them to this approach. Result - they could bend after spending 10 minutes with him.
So, try to learn how to disengage, one at a time, all unnecessary muscles used and learn how to achieve the maximum with minimum movement.
btw, it seems to be easier to work this out in single note style until you "get it" and then apply it to TB.
(I can not TB blow bends, but there are many that do. It also works with overblows, etc, but the focus point is a little different than regular bending.) ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Feb 21, 2017 10:33 AM
I TB blow bends except sometimes the 10 hole gives a little trouble. It's just calibration. I overestimate the movement sometimes. I also TB the 6OB. Dennis Gruenling, for one, TBs all overblows he plays. I don't hold with the notion of 'throat bending', but some people perceive they are doing that. I agree with Iceman. Not only agree, that's misleading, because it's not a matter of opinion. He is simply factually correct. I bend using my tongue. The tip of my tongue remains located very close to the comb of the harp. That's all. I can still use my tongue without having to waggle the tip, the same way I can move my arm while I keep my finger on the button
I was slow to learn the TB method still working on it of course, but wanted to mention that I figured that learning the TB was new to me my tongue wouldn't know the difference between right and left. So I learned to TB as a "lefty" then as a "righty" So I learn my songs now as lip pursing, then right TB then TB Left. I figured it was no different than going to physical therapy and having to learn how to do something different than you already knew.
I'm still at he point when I want my TB to be as good as the lip pursuing...hard to stay light on your feet with the TB style but doable.(at least for me).
but technically I have little idea what is actually happening in relation to the physiology of our bodies etc etc...sometimes you can just play for the fun of it and let others worry if your steping out of the box to much on how the "proper" way might be.
again I don't use my tongue at all to bend....it rests on the bottom of my gums and does not move at all....I can do it....no problem.....because others cant do it does mean it cannot be done...sorry
I think that your really bending with the far back of your tongue.
I can bend with both methods aswell. And while it "feels" like the throat. .... I think Dave Barrett actually did this on MRI or something. X-ray maybe.... you can watch it in bluesharmonica.com. pretty interesting.
Groyster....the bottom of your gums is where the front of the tongue rests. I would venture a guess that you still use the back 2/3 of your tongue to instigate the bend. Perhaps you are so focused on that tip of tongue resting on bottom gum that you aren't aware of what the rest of the tongue does.
To me, the litmus test of any technique is how well you can teach someone else to do it.
How would you teach a beginner to bend? ---------- The Iceman
I would teach a beginner to bend like tony glovers book did me.....tilting the harp up and/or pulling tongue down to bottom of gums.....at one time that's all I could do.....but practicing throat vibrato for 7 beats and letting off on 8th beat....my throat became conditioned to bend with my throat.....and my tongue stays put....at the bottom of my gums....with no movement
Last Edited by groyster1 on Feb 22, 2017 7:23 AM
Since it's the tongue so demonstrably involved in conventional bending (even with TB), I think if you're going to assert something else like throat bending it's up to you to come up with at least a viable alternative mechanism involving the throat. If your tongue is really static, something else must be changing. Is there much you can to with your throat? You've got your larynx to move about and vocal chords in there - are you doing something with those? What does it feel like you are doing?
One of the fun things to try with conventional tongue-based bending is to bend a note, the keep the same position and the vocalise (sing or whatever). It's a strange sound - despite all the assertions that you're making an 'eeee' or 'oooh' or whatever, it's not a sound I'd use in normal English. More like if I'm doing a 'funny voice'.
What does it sound like when you do that with your throat thing?
I guess these sounds are probably used in other languages than English. I read that babies are born with ability to hear and imitate the sounds used in any language in the world, but quickly become specialised to the subset of sounds used in the one they hear spoken around them, and so lose the ability to properly differentiate other sounds.
I wonder if there is a language that is predisposed to playing harmonica? I expect Brendan Power would know.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 22, 2017 2:29 AM
I can bend a note with the tip of my tongue touching the top of my mouth. I can also bend a note with the tip of my tongue touching my back teeth. I can properly bend like this, not just get some bending. When I do this, the muscles involved seem to be just above the Adams apple, at the base of the jaw. So, I've felt for a long time that it was the throat.
But now I'm convinced it's the tongue. In the interests of science I inserted a lollipop stick into my mouth to hold the back of the tongue in place whilst trying to bend, and if I hold it down, I can't bend. If I relax my grip, I can bend and the lollipop stick is pushed up by the back of my tongue. I'm pretty sure what's happening is I'm bending using the posterior tongue. The muscles I'm using to do that feel like they're in the throat.
Am I throat bending? I don't know, but it's the back of my tongue that's shaping the airway. There's definitely some involvement of the throat too, I'm using my glottis to choke the air to some extent, but the tongue is an integral part of it.
Here's what I mean by the posterior tongue:
edit: I'm definitely not making the shapes with my tongue I use to say 'k', 'd', 't' or any other vowel sound. It's definitely further back than that.
Last Edited by bluethird on Feb 22, 2017 4:44 AM
From Dave Barrett's website: Hi, I'm new to the website. I really enjoy the lessons and info on here.
David, I have a question regarding bending. I tongueblock and when bending I don't move my tongue but I use only the muscles in my throat to create the bend. It;s kind of the same musclemovements of the throat that I'm using to create a throatvibrato. I'm getting the right pitches I want but, and this may sound kind of weird, the sound of the bended notes sound kind of to thick, or bassy in comparrison to the normal unbended notes. I don't get the, kind of, crisp sound other players are getting. It;s most noticeable on the two draw deep bend. When reading my description of my problem, do you have any idea of what I mean or should I send in a soundfile so you can hear what I mean? Thanks!
Hello Jack. You are controlling your bends with your tongue, you're just not cognizant of it (I've done a lot of research on this, including real-time MRI imaging). With that said, it all has to do with the resonant pitch of your mouth for each bend... and there are many ways in which to create the "shape," or what we call "volume," needed to produce a particular bend.
For example... you could have your jaw dropped and tongue raised up high to create volume X (remember, we're speaking about volume as the size of the chamber in the mouth, not volume as loudness) to create the bend... OR... you could have your jaw NOT dropped and tongue humped up much further back in the mouth to create the same volume X. I assume you're doing more of the latter... controlling the bend with the back/root of the tongue (near the gum line), with the rest of the tongue fairly high in the mouth.
I recommend you try controlling your bends slightly further forward in the mouth and dropping the jaw slightly as well, creating a chamber more like a sphere and less like an elongated oval.
I know this is very abstract, but that's what bending is. It all gets down to experimentation, and lots of it, though you most likely will have success with this if you give it a couple of months of work. If you want to send me a recording of you playing acoustic through all the bends I'll be happy to take a listen.
Bluethird those are my thoughts exactly. When I figured out how to do this, I also swore I was using my throat. But after further research I now believe it to be the tongue.... just WAY back in the throat.
I actually get a different Tone with this technique than the back of the mouth. I'm sure that it may be because my skills are better with one than another? But a 2" bend from the "throat" yields a much deeper and warmer bend when I do it.
I just don't have the control with it yet to be able to articulate it with the same precision during fast runs. So I tend to still use the back of the tongue in my mouth.
I'm trying to get it nailed down because this is the technique I use when playing TB. And it's one of the main reasons I still switch back to LP for most of my bends. I just can't get that snappy precise action yet when using the "throat".
The snappy precise action will come with practise. The same technique works for blow bends and overbends, but because these need to be so precise, they definitely are harder this way. I agree about the tone.
I can bend with the back of my tongue, sure, but I'd trade that to have Rick's groove, Adam's musicality, Jason's fireworks, or Dennis' Jackets ;)
Yea I figured it would come with practice. Funny enough I dont have a problem with the 3 hole bends, but every other bend (especially the 4 for some reason) I just cant get that snappy action consistently.
I'm glad you find the Tone is better also. I wasn't sure if it was just me. While the tone is deeper and warmer, it also is missing the high end crispyness that the mouth bend has ... so in my opinion it's not a replacement for the mouth bends... just another option for a different color choice. If that makes sense.
I like to have multiple ways of doing everything. I find each brings it's own thing to the table and adds dynamics and depth.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 22, 2017 7:24 AM
Just because you are using the back of your tongue, I don't think you should rule out the possibility that groyster1 and other throat-benders are actually doing something different to you. Personally I think it's unlikely but what if they are? Everything to do with the diatonic is a bit unlikely. No one knows why doing this stuff causes the bend - just that it does.
As a for-instance, what if they were closing their vocal chords to choke the flow, and that causes a bend. Not saying it's that, but what if?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 22, 2017 8:53 AM
If you put the tip of your tongue up against the roof of your mouth (not as a matter of technique, just for illustration) and bend (if you are able to do it) it's easier to identify what is going on in your "throat". And you will more easily be able to identify that it is actually the very deep back of your tongue located in the area of your throat that is doing the work.
This is different and should be distinguished from "opening up" your throat to get the deep 2 and 3 hole bends.
But, you know, you can do a lot by just changing the shape/volume of your oral resonance chamber, too. If you do it right, this can allow you to intonate the bend accurately with a great deal of speed.
bluethird - quite right! :) Btw I like your approach to experiment. Like Isaac Newton sticking a bodkin behind his eyeball to test something or other. This is what we need.
hvyj - I do think you're probably right, but to repeat just because you and I bend that way (back of the tongue) doesn't mean groyster is doing it. I expect he is though, but he might not be.
okay I looked up what I was trying to describe.. Apparently it's called "corner switching". You work your way along the harp and depending where you are you just swap which side you're blocking from. Pretty lengthy explanations on a chromatic site I visited. I get the impression it is fairly common practice.
So I'm still a believer in many ways to get the bends. However not to gross anybody out...but... An a capella singer lady friend of ours.showed us the video of when a camera is inserted through the nose and down the throat to the vocal "chords"... It was at this point she mentioned that the throat entrance is very much like another part of a woman's anatomy...eee...wwww ..she lost me right then.... ...That was the "too much info" overload right there...yikes.
I'm sitting here as I post....bending with my throat....with no tongue movement....but will acknowledge.....my inhale draw bending....does travel over my tongue....at the bottom of my mouth/tongue/gums.....but my tongue....does not move....at all.....because you cannot do it....does not convince me that I cannot
Groyster, I'd be interested to know what happens if you try the lollipop stick experiment I described above. I'm not trying to disprove you, I'm genuinely interested to know whether the back of your tongue is bulging at all. FWIW I was using a Bb.
Goyster I still don't think your understanding. Your tongue goes well back into your throat. So you can use different parts of it to bend.
For instance when I bend using my tongue in my mouth ... I raise the back of my tongue right at the soft part is on the roof of your mouth.
When I bend with my "throat" I can keep the part of my tongue that's in my mouth perfectly flat against the bottom and still bend. This is because I am now raising my tongue from within my throat.
This is what I gather is happening based on the research of others. This is far from a new discussion.
I still agree that you May be doing something different, who knows. Just from your last post it didn't seem that you understood the point about the tincture going further into the throat that just what's in your mouth.
I learned how to play harp with TB technique 3 years ago. I never lip pursed & to this day, I am not very good at it. I do LP the One hole but most of the time I TB it out of the left side of my mouth; bends & all. (It is clear to me that unless you can TB out of both sides of the mouth, speed is affected) After struggling with bend accuracy, last summer I attended SPAH. I had the good fortune of spending an hour with David Barrett and he instructed me in bending. The concept of rolling the tongue from the front to the back of the mouth and starting at the tip is not as easy to describe as it is to do. Anchor the 'top' (not the very tip) of the tip of the tongue on the harp. Slowly send a wave of contraction from front to back while bringing the back of the tongue up to the roof of the mouth. Reverse the direction of the contraction & you can bend both ways, up & down. This method works so well that within 5 minutes, David had me blow bending the 8 & 9 holes. Something I had never done before! My draw bends are in good order now and I am becoming proficient with the blow bends. To get good tone, this technique requires dropping the jaw too. When that happens, it fells like the throat is doing the work, but in my experience; the throat muscles are keeping the tongue in the proper positions for each bend. Try the one hole on a Low F harp & you'll feel this in spades. I can't control the one hole draw bend on a Low A yet! Next year I'll get that A#, & maybe over blows! Hope this is useful.
hvyj writes: "If you put the tip of your tongue up against the roof of your mouth (not as a matter of technique, just for illustration) and bend (if you are able to do it) it's easier to identify what is going on in your "throat". And you will more easily be able to identify that it is actually the very deep back of your tongue located in the area of your throat that is doing the work."
Not the case with me. If I touch the tip of my tongue to the roof of my mouth, I still bend with the K-spot.
resting my case.....cant prove to everybody....but I know....that my tongue does not move....I agree it could be aiding but its stationary....if your throat muscles are conditioned it can be done...inhale is passing over top of tongue true
I believe the throat muscles will expand the diameter of the throat when held in the pre-yawn attitude as well as diminish the diameter. One can watch their adam's apple (or woman's faux adam's apple), in the mirror, move forward when opening, as well as hearing how the voice gets deeper and more resonant.
Isn't this the extent of throat muscle movement?
Anything else may be attributed to tongue, which starts at the "tip" and extends down into the throat.
Two different sets of muscles, frequently "bundled together" in many harmonica player's awareness.
I teach to keep throat open in pre-yawn attitude the whole time harmonica is in the mouth, as it adds depth to the sound. Once these muscles are "frozen in place, so to speak", giving a large resonating chamber, the tongue is independent and free to do its thing in regards to bending. ---------- The Iceman
