TetonJohn
300 posts
Jan 09, 2017
1:54 PM
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I've been using one mike on a stand for both vocals and acoustic harp. The band leader (who also does sound most of the time) is suggesting two mikes so they can be set (EQ/gain/whatever) for the specific purpose. Any of you folks do this?
The one mike is set at the board for my harp playing (I only sing lead on 4 or so songs per night) -- leader says I "max out" the signal when I sing (I must be a blues shouter!). I have an inline VC on the Fireball, but adjusting volume when transitioning between harp and vocals, especially on uptempo songs seems like a really bad idea. I suppose I could try to just sing further back from the mike (but then the EQ is still for harp).
Whaddaya think? (I also play harp about half the time through an amp with a HiZ mike -- but that's not the issue.)
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Greg Heumann
3306 posts
Jan 09, 2017
5:19 PM
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There are lots of alternatives, but the simplest (and wholly sufficient as far as I'm concerned) is an Ultimate 58. The key here is "acoustic". This is not a mic to cup into overdrive. For that you want a 57, and if you want the tone you're probably after when you do it you wouldn't want to be plugged straight into the PA. But for vocals and acoustic harp work - it works great.
The built-in volume control of the Ultimate 58 lets you instantly adjust for vocals vs harp. For me, that means turning it down for vocals (because I eat the mic when I sing) and up for harp (because I get my hands/wah in between the harp and the mic.) For others who sing a foot away form the mic, but want to pick it up and hand-hold it for harp, the exact opposite (turning up for vocals and down for harp) is very useful.
If you want to get more versatile, check out Lone Wolf's "Front Man" pedal - you run your vocal mic through it to the PA. All set up for low impedance. But you can switch a high impedance effects looping and out with your foot, so you can add a complete pedal board worth of stuff to switch in while you're playing harp.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jan 09, 2017 5:21 PM
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dougharps
1334 posts
Jan 10, 2017
8:14 AM
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I use the second approach, playing hand held most of the time. I turn it up all the way and sing off mic to reduce proximity effect muddiness in my lower ranged voice, then turn it lower and cup it loosely to play harp, getting a boost on lows from proximity effect. The knob has a screw that I use as a reference marker for turning down before cupping. I can cup more tightly to get a driven sound, but it doesn't break up, as Greg noted.
This is more and more the approach I use, often not bothering with an amp and other harp mics. However, I am not deeply committed to playing with a highly distorted amp sound, and many of the songs I do are not strictly based in that blues tradition.
I love my Ultimate 58! Great workmanship, Greg!
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 10, 2017 8:16 AM
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TetonJohn
301 posts
Jan 10, 2017
9:01 AM
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Anybody else routinely play acoustic through a mike on a stand and sing through same mike? Do you sweat the EQ and volume differences or just go for it?
Sounds like you guys are saying that a VC should really take care of it. I've got a few options for that as I have a Greg inline VC I can attach to fireball or SM58; I also have an Ultimate 545 (I guess I would run through a DI to PA) and a pre-ultimate 545 -- not red, rounded, but w/VC and 1/4".
If band leader really wants me to try 2 mikes -- I do like the work!
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Jan 10, 2017 9:02 AM
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barbequebob
3342 posts
Jan 10, 2017
10:00 AM
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I've always done acoustic harp and vocals thru the same mic for years. What I do is have the soundman run the mic hot so that for both harp and vocals, I don't need to damned near eat the mic to be heard and it allows me to make better use of my hands for acoustic harp, which once you tight cup the mic, much of that is out the window (and all you're really doing is playing amplified harp minus the distortion, which is NOT real acoustic harp), but at the same time, it saves tons of wear and tear on your vocals as well and you can also get closer or back off for contrast. Even in a band situation, I give the very same instructions to the sound guy because of those very reasons.
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Sincerely,
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Boston, MA
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Kingley
4065 posts
Jan 10, 2017
10:29 AM
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I play this way about 99% of the time. Only use the one mic for both vocals and harp. I simply set it to sound the best for vocals and then leave it be. Can't be bothered with all that turning up, turning down, switching mics mullarky. I prefer an easy life and being able to concentrate on the music, rather than worrying about gear and constantly having to fiddle with it.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jan 10, 2017 10:30 AM
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dougharps
1335 posts
Jan 10, 2017
12:15 PM
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When I DO use a mic on a stand I don't use volume control. I use my hands to control highs and position myself to balance volume by listening to the monitor. I suggest to sound guys that if I am too loud FOH, turn up my monitor so I back off, if I am too quiet FOH, turn down my monitor so I move in. I would not choose 2 mics unless I was using the second for a tube amp sound.
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Doug S.
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nacoran
9345 posts
Jan 10, 2017
1:03 PM
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I have the opposite problem. Despite not being a particularly loud harp player my harp is still louder than my singing (damn asthma). My solution was a clean gain pedal. Greg's solution would work well too (and that's my next purchase since I need a new mic anyway and his mics get awesome reviews!) but I still like the idea of a simple toggle- two clear volume settings. I'd be worried that switching back and forth over the course of a show I'd get the levels out of whack. Ideally I'd like the volume control so I can set the levels during sound check and such but use a gain pedal during. (My band isn't doing much these days. I've tried the gain pedal in practice but haven't got to use it live, but it seems to do the trick.)
You can do some of it too just like Doug said, by backing off the mic. Watch singers who really belt it out and how they back off the mic at key moments. It's interesting to watch someone do a scream. You can hear it's a scream by the quality/timbre of the voice, but most of the time the volume in the mix really doesn't go up much.
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Nate
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waltertore
2974 posts
Jan 10, 2017
1:27 PM
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I do like Bob and have done so through countless PA's over the past 40 years. I also record my vocal and harp through the same mic- at the same time via a harp rack. The whole thing is over rated IMO about separate mics for acoustic harp/vocals. Walter
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Last Edited by waltertore on Jan 10, 2017 1:27 PM
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TetonJohn
302 posts
Jan 11, 2017
6:41 AM
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I appreciate you all weighing in with your thoughts and experience. I did think the two microphone suggestion was a bit much. I'm hoping all I have to do it back off the one mike a bit with my vocals -- no mike mullarky! Thanks again.
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Greg Heumann
3307 posts
Jan 11, 2017
11:28 AM
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@Nate re: "I'd be worried that switching back and forth over the course of a show I'd get the levels out of whack."
I hear concerns like this a lot. I understand the concern, but in practice, form my experience they are unwarranted. Volume controls are really, really helpful, but they are still a "gross" setting. You manage dynamics with your playing or your singing. You have a huge range. The VC just lets you get the sound level into the sweet spot so you can sing and play comfortably.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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WinslowYerxa
1251 posts
Jan 11, 2017
11:32 AM
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Howling Wolf seemed to do fine playing and singing through the same mic. Same goes for Sonny Boy II. Just check out the available video.
And I bet nobody at the sound board was riding the faders, either. The players just knew from experience how to work the mic.
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mlefree
803 posts
Jan 11, 2017
12:51 PM
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Hey, John! Good to hear from ya. They prolly won't remember me but say hey to Anne and Pete from Montrose Michelle for me.
Here's a different thought entirely.
I play racked harmonica, washboard and sing backups in a bluegrass/jug band. I can't hold a mic' because my hands are busy with the washboard. And I can't use two mic's because of the band's stage dynamics. We move around a lot for reasons I'll explain.
I use a shock-mounted condenser "bottle" microphone.
Rode NT-1-A
First off, since we're basically just trying to boost our completely acoustic sound for larger audiences, I want a "clean" mic' that reproduces natural sound. No compression. When I want a distorted sound I use a '60s Shure SM-45 (saving to have Greg Ultimatize it) with a near antique Digitech RP-50 using Richard's patches into the PA. For this bluegrass scenario I want an accurate reproduction of both the harp, the washboard (which can be incredibly loud when I want it to), and my (sickly) vocals.
Sometimes, like many bluegrass bands we all use the bottle mic' but we've gravitated to each of us having our own mic's. You've probably seen the stage dynamics of a singe-mic'ed bluegrass band as the players switch solo breaks. I still do a lot of moving around basically to act as a way of controlling my volume as I switch between roles, instruments and vocals. If I am singing or soloing on harp I get right on top of the mic'. If I am playing backup or rhythm harp I back off a little. When I play the washboard I back off a lot. The banjo player has two mic's but he has to do the same thing when he changes from soloing to backup playing. He's also our main vocalist.
I have come to love my bottle mic' for all its flexibility. The only potential issue is it's really designed to be a studio microphone so I have to coddle it because it's a bit fragile.
Works for me.
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Jan 11, 2017 1:15 PM
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LittleBubba
340 posts
Jan 11, 2017
4:43 PM
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You can manage 58s very well for vocals and harp. It just takes practice, especially in the use of your hands when playing harp. I have no knowledge of Fireballs but using different gear is just a matter of knowing its limitations and adjusting. Proximity to the 58 is adjusted to control feedback if you don't use a volume control. Your tone & chops are what you get acoustically -- you can darken the sound with EQ, or with your body cavities (mouth,nose,throat,etc.), if you want a more amplified brown tone. It's all in the mind. I've probably pleased the crowd, as a guest musician, just as much walking up to a 58 eq'd for voice as I have using my best chicago style blues gear. Two mics... not necessary, although I've used two.
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TetonJohn
303 posts
Jan 12, 2017
11:00 AM
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Hey, Michelle, I bet you got dumped on (snow), too -- especially being west of the divide. Jackson Hole has had 310" so far this season! Yes, I'll pass your hello along. Anne and Pete are now in Montery, CA but they get back here sometimes (family/friends/gigs).
Thanks for the additional mike info. I have some familiarity with those large condenser mikes from the Jackson Hole Hootenanny -- love it, am now pretty comfortable with the distance/volume variations for singing (soft and loud) and playing (soft and loud). The JH Hoot is entirely acoustic (apart from that mike of course), so it works very well. And speaker placement is dialed in, so rarely any feedback issues from the large pickup pattern. And the choreography when ensemble playing is all part of the fun.
The current situation is based on a 5 piece (amps, mic'ed drums) and the band leaders issue with my vocals. I bet part of my problem is my "conceit" that my lyrics should actually be intelligible to facilitate connecting with the audience! I bet a combination of easing up a bit and possibly turning me up in the monitor will solve it (but I usually don't have the luxury of my own monitor mix!). Glad to see, Michelle, that you are still contributing your thoughts and kindness to the online harp community. Be well!
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mlefree
805 posts
Jan 15, 2017
12:55 PM
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John, I've somehow let a few things slip past me here. I didn't know the Sibley's have moved (however, I must approve of their taste in locales). And I also somehow missed your stage situation.
Since you aren't playing in a rack, the opportunity to back away a tad in combination with your VC would seem to give you enough latitude to do what you want. Might take a little practice but I have no doubt you are up to the challenge.
Yes, I am am old-timer on the internet harmonica forums. Adam has put together a good one here. It's inhabited by a continually refreshed membership and that keeps it interesting. I can't seem to tear myself away even though I can get curmudgeonly at times in my advancing years. Still hoping to get to the Teton/Yellowstone area so don't be too shocked if I look you up. 8^)
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Jan 15, 2017 12:56 PM
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