does anyone use one of these devices to stop feedback? are there other ways to get around this problem without using an I box straight into the p.a. i prefer to use an amp that i can overdrive but i can't get the volume i need on stage without feeding back. thanks, mike
There are strategies. Fender Bassman reissue is a search I'd suggest on here. Searches happen under the Blues Forum tab, bottom left. I'd also suggest some time on this site, especially if you have a good job. http://www.kinder-instruments.com/
1]kinder AFB----2] [Lone wolf 'Harp Shield' one thing nice about this pedal is thats its always on-but also has a mute if u step on it ---I have one I like it----3]squeel killer, looks very interesting--good luck
Part 1. Anti Feed Back "Solutions" for amplified harmonica from a Moon Cat Unfortunately there is no real easy answer to this problem but there are a lot of things you can do to get louder with less feedback and hopefully good tone. I have played in a lot of bands (un mic'ed and miced) that can get real loud at certain times of the night (New Blood, Johnny Winter, Walter Trout and The Bad Kind) and have some experience with combating this issue. After 20 years of touring all over the world, 250-300 days of year, from meth riddled, crappy sports bars and ego explosive open mic's to the Paradiso and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame here are a few tips I've learned and reviews of all the boxes out there that attempt to help you deal with the dreaded feed back issue. First if you wan't to be louder the easiest solution will always be a bigger, louder amp or a direct to PA alternative, having said that here's what you can do with your big amp once you get it. Greg Heumann of Blows Me Away Productions has wrote some great stuff on Volume vs. Gain, revisit those if you have the time. Some of this article alludes to a similar a point or two makes in my own words.
1.) EQ'ing your rig: Turn all your tone controls down/off. Turn your volume all the way up until your amp begins feeding back (some amps will not engage any volume with all the tone controls off, so you may have to inch one or all of them up just a sliver). Try playing with Only the volume up really loud. Once you have the amp beyond it's feed back threshold lower the volume a bit you may be surprised how great your tone sounds all of a sudden JUST with the volume knob up! This is because there are Bass, Treble and Mid frequencies in volume when your amp starts working hard. There is an actual reason so many players like to play loud besides just ego. Once your amp is as loud as it can go with only the volume knob engaged then begin to add treble, bass and mids to taste. As you do this you will notice your amp will get closer to feeding back again or will feed back. This is because your tone controls actually add volume or volume of certain frequencies that can feed back just like your volume knob adds TONE! So you will have to back off the volume each time you add more Treble, Bass, Mids etc. Already you will find that your amp is now significantly louder than ever before with just the tone controls backed down and the volume higher a lot of you will like the way it sounds better too at your new much louder, mostly feed back free volume! Imagine where it reads Volume on your amp it also had this: (Treble, Bass, Mids) and where it says Treble , Bass or Mids it also said (Volume).
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Oct 19, 2016 11:30 AM
(Continued) 2.) Stomp Boxes/outboard devices: Here we go! OK... there is and most likely will never be built the perfect answer to our problem in the form of an electronic "solution" that eliminates feedback AND satisfies everyone's needs. That is unfortunately a pretty reliable predication I'm afraid. Part of the problem is "good tone"/ break up,/distortion/compression etc ARRIVE at or beyond the edge of feedback. Feed back is the sound of a microphone or a pick up, picking up the sound of itself so any time an amp is loud this can happen. Here is my run down on my experience with the devices currently available in todays harmonica market. There are really three ways to fight feed back: 1.) Volume gate. 2.) Eq'ing and/or frequency gating/isolations. 3.) Signal Padding. I will now begin with my best assessment of the positive and negative element of these boxes. One of these boxes will work well for you especially IF you did my "volume up EQ down" trick above.
Out Board Pedals/Boxes A.) The Lone Wolf "Harp Shield" (GATE) : This pedal is a GATE. It attempts to cut off your signal once it detects there is no longer a signal being made by you. This way as soon as you stop playing it essentially tries to mute your microphone and not allow the mic to pick up the sound of your amp. The Lone Wolf Harp Shield has a "sensitivity knob" (the only knob) that allows you to adjust how sensitive the gate is. If you play kinda hard (most hard players don't even think they do) this pedal will be really easy for you to get your amp REALLY loud with almost NO issues and you'll love it! If you don't play that loud and/or play with a ton of sensitive, subtle, vibrato and other light breath patterns you will have to turn the sensitivity knob all the way down or nearly all the way down so the pedal does not CUT OFF/GATE your notes. Soft/light players will notice that this pedal will attempt to gate frequently when they are playing softly or playing with a very soft vibrato. This is of course a big draw back to the "gate" solution to feed back for many of us and the only problem at that with the Lone Wolf option. The higher you turn this pedal up the louder you can make your amp but the less lightly you can play your harmonica. The plus side/benefit to choosing the Lone Wolf "Harp Shield" pedal is that the Harp Shield does NOTHING to your existing tone, repeat NOTHING and is a PURE feed back eliminating device that is a serious candidate for a type of "solution". Again there is no "Solution" that doesn't eventually create a new issue thats why I'm putting that word in quotes. This pedal retails for 140.00 from some pretty great people in small town Hammond Louisiana. Often you can find all these devices used and now cheaper, from players that didn't take the time to understand what and how the device really works or didn't bother doing some basic EQ'ing prior to plugging in or insist on using a tiny 3-20 watt amp and complaining rather than getting a real rig. Also you may have found one used for cheap from someone who has found another "Solution"...Personally I now have been using the "Harp Shield" for nearly 6 years and is the current and most effective "solution" (that I prefer) that I have found to date.
B.) The Kinder "AFB" = anti. feed. back. (GATE/FREQUENCY GATE/DISTORTION): This device is made by mad scientist John Kinder in California and the circuitry can actually be found built in to the chassy/head of the "Harp King" Amplifiers that this supplier also produces which are used by Rod Piazza and Dennis Gruenling, so now you know those guys are using at least A "pedal". The Kinder "AFB" gives you the control to find the particular, offending/feeding back frequencies your self and dial them back sort of like a "soft" EQ pedal thus reducing feedback. The knobs on the far left and right control and I suspect GATE high and low frequencies and are pretty damn effective at giving you a good solid notch of extra volume before feedback, again, especially if you did my EQ trick I listed as the first "Solution" to your battle. Like the Lone Wolf "Harp Shield" if this pedal is turned up too much and you play softly you will hear the gate and it will annoy you but it is not as bad as the L.W. option for that particular draw back. The knob in the middle adds break up/distortion and a little compression as well rounding out your tone and giving you "that sound you were looking for" with volume. Unfortunately for many this is ALSO another problem! While MANY people will ENJOY the way the Kinder "AFB" changes their tone, many people will DISLIKE it as well. This pedal DOES change your tone dramatically and if you do not like the sound of solid state amplifiers you may not like this pedal at all because it uses solid state circuity and that can make your amp sound a little "false" especially if you crank that middle knob. Again a ton of people love and even depend on the way this pedal changes their tone. Another draw back of this pedal is it cannot be plugged in to the wall or a power supply without modification. The modification is simple to do by anyone. Simply obtain male connectors that will attach two female 9 volt receptor thingies (you know where the batteries go) and run them to a Wall worts or two isolated power jacks on a power supply. A "1 spot" is not isolated and will not work. After you have done that you can file or cut a hole for which they can easily exit the device by hand with a file or with a dremmel. Be sure your cut is sanded or buffered with tape so that you don't eventually cut the wires. Another draw back of the Kinder "AFB" is that it can be "hard" to obtain... There is sometimes a waiting list. John doesn't always answer his phone or emails. Occasionally these boxes are built, pre order and ready to ship but I personally had to send the money (pedal retails at 359.00) and wait in silence (which I did) up to four months or maybe more for the "AFB" to arrive. I have not yet heard of one scenario in which someone did not get their order. John is a good guy I have been to his house and bought a few of these devices over the years but this one will take some trust on your part. Personally I used this pedal for 9 years straight and at one time owned three. It is a very great pedal however I feel I "grew" out of it's distinct and quite fixed sound. I now combine use of the following Lone Wolf products: 1.) "Harp Shield" and the 2.) "Harp Break" and 3.) my signature "Flat Cat" compressor to fight feed back, tone shape and compress in a manner that can change, be tweaked and adjusted drastically or in microbes and as my tastes tend to change from room to room, band to band, song to song, session to session and year to year.
C. The "Squeal Killer" (PAD): Jason Lockwood, the man who makes this is a super nice guy and I hate to write anything negative about this product but I simply still, despite a personal visit to my home do not understand why a simple tube swap on the amp itself wouldn't do the same thing without cluttering up the stage or top of your amp. The Box uses a lower gain power tube (12 at7) to give your amp (with 12 ax7's) more headroom allowing you to turn the amp up louder. The issues with this OR tube swapping in general is that like I said earlier "good tone" comes at the edge of feed back. So you may now have more volume/headroom but now your wanting more "tone" so your amp will still feed back just before it's where you want it to be but you'll be heard louder... so up to you...This could be a good option for the traveling player if you have to use someone else's amp/backline and obviously you don't wan't to swap tubes at a festival, club date etc....which would be rude and time consuming. The Box requires a battery or external power (one OR the other) and retails around 250.00+. Please remember these are my opinions only and allegedly Rick Estrin and Aki Kumar both sometimes use this pedal.
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Oct 19, 2016 11:33 AM
(Continued) D.) The Lone Wolf "Mojo Pad" (PAD) : Essentially this cute, simple, unpretentious, little box is the same thing as the Squeal Killer as I understand it. "The Mojo Pad" uses a simple pad treatment to your signal with a resistor instead of a tube. The Mojo Pad like the Squeal Killer is designed to be used at the end of your chain or before the amp for Pedal/box and cannot be used before a pedal effectively and retails humbly at 49.00 and requires NO power. Personally I don't Pad my amps. I use 5751 preamp tubes, which are pretty hot too. Thats just me.
Here are a few other important helpful tips for fighting feed back to try. 1.) Again get a louder amp that moves more wind with more watts. 2.) Try a newer microphone like a Shure 57, some amazing technology has happened since the 40's and part of that technology was developing mics that feed back less. With todays out board pedals, tube choices etc you can replace that "Bullet" distortion/hotness and get any amount of compression distortion etc that you want out of your rig and/or with a pedal. It's really that simple. You don't see many guitar players searching for old antiquated pick ups to get distortion and compression, they use a pedal with a big amp or a smaller amp mic'ed up. Pat Ramsey used smaller amps but always complained about the soundmen not getting his monitor right or re EQ'ing his tone. 3.) Use a volume control and learn to use it as part of your playing. I don't set and forget these things. I ride these knobs, almost compulsively when I play and this can be seen in 1000's of videos on youtube. You can also watch guitar players do the same thing. 4.) Experiment with raising your amp up on a milk crate or even just off the stage a few inches with something .I use to leave my amp in it's road case wheels. I no longer have a road case. Certain stages act like amps themselves! Many Stages, and rooms will boost and suppress certain frequencies and cause your tone to be completely different room to room! Raising the amp off the stage not only helps you hear better, so you don't have to turn up but also reduces extra bass frequencies (and other undesirable effects) that can be caused by hollow stages reverberating. 5.) Move your amp far away from you. This can be bad and good. The good part is it's way harder to feed back, the bad part is you may have to make it louder to hear it. However having your amp right under your legs behind you IS NOT a good way to judge volume at all! The amp will be way louder than you THINK it is and you may end up yelling at people to turn down who are in fact less loud than you. This is another reason you would want to raise your amp up or tilt it back and you will see me, Kim Wilson and a lot of other pros also raising the amp up near us when were close to it.
Hope that helped. Jason Ricci www.mooncat.org
---------- www.mooncat.org
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Oct 18, 2016 5:56 PM
Great stuff Jason I especially agree with the last solution don't use a Bullet with a large element in it,they are a recipe for DEEF. Since i copied Adams philosophy of clean mike dirty amp i have had very few problems I only wish i had done it years ago. My bullet(s) are on the shelf gathering dust.
Thanks Jason! This why I started visiting this site, the fantastic artists who are willing to share from their wealth of experience! This topic will be searched as long as this site lasts! Love the part about riding the volume control! I bought an in-line control for my 57 and I am on it all the time! On some settings I don't turn up the volume until the mike is cupped and turn it down instantly after because any open air lets the FB begin!
Bottom line here is that there isn't anything magic about these things. One thing that should be mentioned is room acoustics and every room is going to be different and many of these pedals, be it feedback suppressors or EQ's, regardless of how they're set up, they can't compensate for that one bit. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bob! Amazing! I have actually disagreed with you TWO times for the first time ever in twenty plus years in just the last two months: You said: ". One thing that should be mentioned is room acoustics and every room is going to be different and many of these pedals, be it feedback suppressors or EQ's, regardless of how they're set up, they can't compensate for that one bit."-BBQ Bob
Yeah man definitely on the acoustics thing but I did mention room to room variances t and even stages amplifying certain frequencies and Bob a few of these boxes DEFINITELY will make a HUGE difference in combating that issue so they CAN compensate much more than "one bit", quite a few bits actually...I mean try a before and after with me sometime in person I guarantee you'll see what I mean. RESPECT as always your buddy -Jason ---------- www.mooncat.org
I didn't really have a 'problem' with feedback. I just thought maybe I could get a bit louder when I tried the harp shield. But no, I couldn't. I expect my situation was slightly unusual in that I was usually tucked in closer to the drums than most, due to the band having 3 fronts and quite theatrical. What I found was that the pedal cut out my softer playing unless I made it very sensitive, but if it was sensitive enough to remain open for that, it also was opening in response to other things like drums and cymbals. I did try it with a 57. No dice. So it just didn't help at all because it was virtually always open. I was short-sighted and sold it on. I forget to think maybe I wouldn't always be in the same situation. These days I'm fronting a more traditional kind of blues band and maybe the pedal could be useful as a protection against accidental feedback. I don't think it would help me get louder, or that I really need to get louder. I haven't been on a big quest to fight feedback beyond using a big amp and having no harp in my pa monitors, but one pedal I found will give an apparent feedback-free volume boost is the LW Harp Octave. Does affect tone though. Thing about tone though, I reckon my amp has a place where it's loud enough and if I turn the volume up it doesn't sound better. Or even louder really. Just more distorted. Usually I can get it there without feedback being a problem. Does vary a bit with stages
Haven't tried the Harp Shield but I have tried to use other gates over the years. If you play with delay or even reverb, and you set the gate to close before the fedback threshold you wind up cutting off the trail/fade of the delay/reverb. Set it to stay open for the trail/fade and you get feedback. So, I am not a big proponent of gates.
I am in complete agreement with Jason about the virtues of using a modern mic and a big boy amp. But I must respectfully disagree about the MojoPad and the Squeal Killer being similar. They are not. The MP goes last in chain right before the amp. The SK goes first in chain right after the mic. I have no idea how the SK works but you can push the amp MUCH harder (and into controllable distortion) with the SK than you can using the MP. I use both (not at the same time) for different applications and in my experience they are not at all similar.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 19, 2016 7:23 PM
Jason, the item about just using the volume control and properly EQ-ing your setup was very interesting. Looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for sharing.
Great post Moon Cat, and thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.
Although at the opposite end of the player scale from Moon Cat I thought Id share my experience over the last 20 or so years.
I've played around with a number of anti-feedback solutions over the years in search of both more volume and that certain tone that my ear wants to hear. I think when it comes down to it, no one size fits all. Everyone's idea of the tone they're searching for is different and a solution that is perfect for one will not suit another. You have to take the time to experiment with all the great suggestions on offer before you settle on something you like.
Personally I've tried lower gain tubes, the harpsheild, the mojo pad and the squeal killer.
Lower gain tubes helped me control feedback but didn't really give me more volume and to my ear muddied my sound to the extent that I would struggle to cut through the band, especially when using lower key harps. The answer was to turn up the tone controls but along came feedback.
I tried the Harp Shield for a while but struggled to get it to work effectively for me. I probably didn't give it enough time but like many people I was after a magical instant fix.
The mojo pad and the squeal killer are dramatically different. The mojo pad is more akin to swapping out those 12AX7s for 12AUs and for the money is a quick solution if you need to borrow an amp. It reduces the volume quite a bit (so you have to turn the amp up more) and cuts the high frequencies meaning a muddier sound (to my ear). I'm not convinced it allows me to play any louder, just with better feedback control.
The Squeal Killer doesn't have the same effect as the mojo in my experience. It slightly reduces volume but without significantly altering the tone. With the volume on my amp turned back up, to my ear I can get a bit louder, but what it does allow me more control over is the tone controls. I like a sound with punch that cuts through so I prefer a bit more treble in the mix. The Killer allows me to get the sound I want out of my amp in most situations, but not all.
Finally I've experimented with both the mojo pad and the squeal killer together. I have to turn the volume of my amp (a bassman) right up to about 8 or 9 but I think it allows me to drive the amp more so I get more break up and more crunch without risking feedback. This is just observational though and could be completely in my head. I'm sure someone here will tell me its a terrible idea but if you have both pedals why not give it a try and see what you think.
I also agree on the SM57. I have one and it does have better feedback control than my bullet mics, but you gotta love a vintage bullet.
So my advice would be, try everything and anything you can because your perfect solution will most likely be unique to you. I'm certainly going to try Moon Cat's tip about turning the tone controls off and volume up.
GREAT POST MOONCAT!! Very Informative. I'll try that EQ method.
I have a Harp Shield and I play rather soft. So the very thing that jason was saying is what happens to me. The pedal Cuts out my playing alot. But in reading jasons post I thought of something.......
If your a soft player and you put a Compressor Pedal ( such as the flat cat) BEFORE your Harp Shield, wouldn't this solve that issue? Just a thought.
I also recently found out that Lone Wolf will modify your harp shield for you. They change one of the resistors which then makes the Harp Shield true bypass when turned all the way down. So as I understand it, this mod gives the harp shield more adjustment on the bottom end of the dial. Since I never really turn mine up very far I think this would be a good idea for me.
MTG I think this is one for the Save folder. 8^) ----------
Here's the Mod video by Landry. If anyone is interested. Or would like to try doing it yourself. I can solder, but I would still rather the pros do it. 8^)
Hey! I recognize those hands! They're typing this message!
In all seriousness, when we designed the Harp Shield we worked with some guys who played a bit harder than most, and, as a result, the sensitivity band was a little too high. We've since remedied that.
If you have an old one, I'll mod it free of charge. I'll also talk you through it if you are handy with an iron.
I won't get involved in the discussion because I (obviously) have two dogs in the race. I just wanted to drop that info in. ---------- --Nathan Heck General Manager, Lone Wolf Blues Co. customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
HVI wrote: "But I must respectfully disagree about the MojoPad and the Squeal Killer being similar. They are not. The MP goes last in chain right before the amp. The SK goes first in chain right after the mic. I have no idea how the SK works but you can push the amp MUCH harder (and into controllable distortion) with the SK than you can using the MP. I use both (not at the same time) for different applications and in my experience they are not at all similar" I'm really glad the SK is working for you and that is ALL that matters here. However, I don't understand how you can say definitively these devices are not essentially doing same thing and in the same paragraph state: " I have no idea how the SK works -" What they are is PADS that pad in two different ways (transistor vs tube). The problem with the SK or the MP at the FRONT of any chain is they buffer/lower output from the signal therefore negatively effecting how any pedal after them in any chain functions. So regardless of WHERE the SK seller would like you to place this pedal it is not a good idea if you like your other effects to run properly. This is why LW has said the MP should go last....they understand that.... Thanks meow. ---------- www.mooncat.org
It's all a bit mysterious. The Mojo Pad is a passive thing so no transistors. The LW blurb says the tone is unaffected which seems a reasonable claim for a resistive T-pad. The Squeal Killer is an active thing, but then Adam says that the MP changes his tone, but the Squeal Killer doesn't! I don't doubt what he is hearing, but that seems the wrong way round. If the SK is just an attenuator, that's an expensive bit of kit.
The harp shield may not work in all settings, but at least it's clear what it does.
My educated guess would have been that the SK, with it's tube, might change the EQ and/or add a bit of light compression - not of the Flat Cat type, but round off the signal peaks without going into clipping. That is what tubes are famed for doing, after all. But maybe it doesn't, only a scope would show it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 20, 2016 11:46 AM
Just to clarify, I said the Squeal Killer doesn't significantly alter my tone. It does however alter it. The Mojo Pad however has a bigger impact and appears to cut the treble almost completely, making for a much bassier sound.
To be fair to hvyj, when I asked Jason Lockwood where to place the Squeal Killer he did say first in the chain, however to be fair to Jason L. he also recommended using a buffer pedal directly after the SK.
Using my Bassman with the volume at 4, plugging in the SK reduces the volume only slightly and allows me to turn up somewhere between 5 or 6 before feedback depending on the room. It sounds louder to me but I lack any of the proper recording tools to evidence that. As I said what it does is allow me to increase the treble to get a punchier sound that is more pleasing to my ear. Watch the video I recorded below and see what you think.
If I plug the MP with the same amp settings the volume decreases significantly so as to be barely audible at 4. I have to turn up to 6 or 7 to get back to the same volume. The resulting sound has much more bass which some people will love, but on lower key harps I would struggle to be heard through the rest of my band (I have two guitarists in my band so it can be a challenge anyway).
Right now I always use the SK but I'm hanging on to the MP because it will definitely come in useful. For the money, I have to take my hat off to Lone Wolf. The MP costs less than a couple of decent low gain tubes and is a damn sight easier to install for the same result so for anyone on a budget it's a worthwhile buy. I have nothing but respect for the guys at Lone Wolf.
At the end of the day it's all in the ear of the beholder.
Here's the video review I did of the SK. Hopefully you can hear the differences in tone (I recommend you listen through headphones). I've posted this here before so apologies for doing so again. Please also excuse the playing, as I said, I'm at the opposite end of the playing spectrum to Moon Cat.
@jason: I dunno if they are the same thing or not. I use the SK without pedals between a high impedance 545 Ultimate and a Peavey Delta Blues for one particular sideman gig where the band is loud and they want a "raw" harmonica sound. It allows me to crank the amp up enough to get a responsive distortion without uncontrollable feedback. By responsive distortion I mean being able to produce greater distortion when I play harder and less when I back off. Not my usual thing, but it enables me to get the sound the band leader wants for that gig.
A MojoPad won't enable me to drive an amp hard enough to to that. So, whether or not they are the same type of device there is a difference in how they behave when in use. And, btw, I wouldn't use an SK with a pedalboard for the reasons you point out.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 20, 2016 3:30 PM
This idea may be a but cumbersome, but I played around a lot with this when I was dealing with a lot of reverb-echo/overdrive related feedback in my rather loud and prog inspired guitar rig...
ABY your clean and dirty channels, use your noise gate (harp shield, etc) on the dirty side. Mic your clean/dirty amps and mix at the PA. (I'd usually include some reverb on both channels.)
If you've set your overdriven amp up nicely, it should be on a threshold where it will stop breaking up and have great clean tone when you play more quietly. If the gate cuts it out at a certain point, no big deal, because your clean amp will still ring through, and if it's set up well, the clean sound will be substantially less prone to feedback.
A friend of mine who does a lot of distorted bass guitar work uses some really slick "blend" pedals that someone built for him. They are essentially just a true-bypass loop switch, but with a knob that adjusts how much clean, and how much loop gets passed through. Works really well! Put the gate in the loop, and you're in business with just one amp! In this case, however, the amp is really clean, and the FX pedals are responsible for all of the OD/Fuzz sounds.
It seems as though these ideas should translate to high-volume amplified harp rather well...
... and now I REALLY want to run my harp through my Roland Space Echo... what have I done?
