Minor Blues
48 posts
Oct 17, 2016
11:59 AM
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Just curious if anyone else who has purchased the Lucky 13 experienced an excessive amount of sharpness in the tuning.
I ordered an F and an Eb. On both harps, most (75-80%)of the reeds are tuned unusually sharp.
On a standard tuner, the reading is between 25 and 30% toward the next note. Way sharp.
I guess, I can open them up and tune them down, but I really didn't want to have to do that.
Why would they be tuned so high? Any ideas?
I'm in a very dry climate. Would that cause the reeds to "go sharp"?
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
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isaacullah
3226 posts
Oct 17, 2016
12:10 PM
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Haven't checked tuning with a tuner yet. I can check on this for you and report back. I have keys F, D, C, Bb, A, and G, and will look across the range. Could be that they are using a different kind of compromise tuning, especially if they are starting the octave stretching from the new lower octave.
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barbequebob
3300 posts
Oct 17, 2016
1:14 PM
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Harmonicas as a general rule are never tuned to true A440 because every harp manufacturer and tech all know for a fact that the average player often plays harder than they realize and if you were to play one tuned to true A440, you'd be actually playing closer to to A437-A438 and so by tuning them to something like A442-A443 as standard pitch, no matter how hard you play them, they'll never fall below A440.
Also compromise tunings help chords sound sweeter and clearer than ET tuning on harmonicas because the reeds in harmonicas give off many more harmonic overtones than almost any other instrument other than a piano, many of them odd numbered ones.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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WinslowYerxa
1228 posts
Oct 17, 2016
2:30 PM
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Also, tempering for chords lowers Blow 2, 5, and 8, and Draw 3 and 7. If the base pitch is raised, though, these notes will sound more in tune with other instruments.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Oct 17, 2016 2:30 PM
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Gnarly
1954 posts
Oct 17, 2016
5:25 PM
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I have a low C Lucky 13 here to retune for a customer--just checked, and it IS tuned sharp.
Not a problem, it's about to become solo tuned.
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Mahcks
81 posts
Oct 17, 2016
7:07 PM
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Yah, just checked mine. Some reeds are pretty sharp even when I play them how I normally do. I guess I'll touch them up while I'm tuning to paddy.
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Gnarly
1955 posts
Oct 17, 2016
9:14 PM
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The harp sounds in tune--Winslow was spot on (as usual) . . .
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Minor Blues
49 posts
Oct 18, 2016
12:17 PM
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@Gnarly
I never said the harp was out of tune. It's in tune with itself, however it's tuned sharp compared to my other harps, and compared to any other instrument that is tuned with a standard chromatic tuner.
That's the problem.
Last Edited by Minor Blues on Oct 18, 2016 12:18 PM
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Gnarly
1957 posts
Oct 18, 2016
1:03 PM
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@Minor Blues I understand--and it's always better if you are in tune with other instruments.
And this one is going to 442 when I am done with it--interesting, it will be solo tuned, starting on E3, with all the G notes tuned to G#, as requested by the customer.
So you see, I do take request.
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isaacullah
3227 posts
Oct 18, 2016
9:53 PM
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@minorblues: I check all of my lucky 13's tonight with my cheap long chromatic tune set to A = 444. It seems that they are all about 20 cents sharp, across the board. Interesting. I do note, however, that I can easily pull individual notes down into pitch, and that they are mostly in tune with themselves (octaves). Tuning seems a little inconsistent from harp to harp, though, as they are all sharp to slightly different amounts (not exactly 20 cents each time). Since all 6 of mine are like this, I'd say it seems like this is a deliberate tuning choice in the factory.
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 19, 2016 10:14 AM
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Gnarly
1958 posts
Oct 18, 2016
10:29 PM
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444 is not that uncommon--I think Hohner does this sometimes.
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Minor Blues
50 posts
Oct 19, 2016
9:03 AM
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@Isaacullah
Thanks for checking. Very interesting. In my case, I don't think I'll be using these for much except novelty. They're kind of fun, but not all that practical.
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barbequebob
3301 posts
Oct 19, 2016
10:15 AM
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In Hohner's crappy quality years of 1981-1995, many of their harps tuned to the key of D and higher were as high as A445.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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isaacullah
3228 posts
Oct 19, 2016
10:18 AM
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Sure thing!
@Gnarly: What I meant is that most notes are still +20cents above what they ought to be if they were tuned exactly equal at A = 444. So they would be about 24 or so cents sharp at A = 440. In other words, it seems as if they were tuned with A = 464, which seems unusual. It may be, as Winslow says, this has to do with tempering the chords. I did this check very quickly and clumsily, so it could be that, as he says, 3 and 7 draw are closer to "true" pitch.
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1847
3755 posts
Oct 19, 2016
10:34 AM
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20 cents is about 5 hz so it would be closer to 449 hz
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Gnarly
1959 posts
Oct 19, 2016
10:35 AM
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In my opinion, these 13 hole harps are winners. Granted, you might have to do some work to make them what you want.
I wish Suzuki made diatonics with 12, 13 or 14 holes.
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1847
3756 posts
Oct 19, 2016
10:48 AM
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ok 464 is a typo you meant 446
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isaacullah
3229 posts
Oct 19, 2016
2:58 PM
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@1847: Yes, sorry. I apparently cannot write a coherent sentence today (and typing posts out on my phone doesn't help either).
To clarify: It appears to me that the Lucky 13 is likely tuned in the factory to a base pitch of around A = 446 (NOT 464, as I wrote above!). I measure my harps at around 25-30 cents sharp from A=440, and about 15-20 cents sharp from A=444, on average, across the range of the harp. Individual notes are more or less sharp from that average, and this is a little different from harp to harp. Again, I am using a cheap Korg chromatic tuner, and measured this very quickly. It seems to me that it is unusual to find a harmonica with such a sharp base pitch (446 or perhaps even 447). It doesn't bother me, as I would just tune my other instruments to a similar base pitch, but could cause some clashing sounds if sitting in with a band tuned to another reference pitch.
Sorry for the confusion on my earlier post. I hope that is clearer! :)
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 19, 2016 2:59 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
854 posts
Oct 19, 2016
8:37 PM
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Maybe the factory anticipates a flattening break-in. Perhaps a cold factory.
I would not consider them a novelty. Assuredly, an adjustment in playing style will be required, but I can see a total conversion as a possibility. Of course, I don't own any yet. The set of 12 cost almost exactly what 2 new tires for my scooter will cost, and I think I need the tires worse.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Oct 19, 2016 8:37 PM
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1847
3760 posts
Oct 19, 2016
9:00 PM
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it is very common for a cheap tuner to be off by 8 cents,
a turbo tuner is a very precise instrument. it is my understanding they will be re-releasing the st 122
well worth checking out.
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Gnarly
1960 posts
Oct 20, 2016
9:07 PM
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I have begun carving this thing up--the reed material is much harder than the Suzuki phosphor bronze.
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Brendan Power
530 posts
Oct 22, 2016
6:07 AM
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A few points to note here:
1. Harmonica tuning is NOT an exact science. A given reed will sound flatter or sharper depending on the player. Generally a light player will play sharp, a strong player will play flat. Regardless of breath pressure, a player's mouth shape, how they tilt the harp, and their type of embouchure (lipping, tongue-blocking, toungue-rolling) are well known to affect reed tuning. So it's best for every player to fine-tune their own harps to their preference. It's a normal procedure I and thousands of other harp players take for granted - like reed gapping, an essential skill for any serious harp player, I think.
2. What tuner you use is a factor as well, they vary a little.
3. Suzuki, Hohner, Easttop all use automatic laser tuners at the factory, on bare reedplates. Tuning changes once you assemble the harp and blow into it, as players' mouth cavities and the comb chambers have their own resonance frequencies (Helmholtz Resonace), which interact with the reed pitchs to give the note you hear.
4. Harps from different manufacturers vary in tuning (I find Hohner sharper than Suzuki, for example), but harmonica reeds are tuned sharp by ALL manufacturers. That's because they play flat in actual use, with the assembly factor above and as moisture collects on the reeds. A nominally dead-in-tune harp with light breath will sound very flat to A440 when played. A moderately sharp harp by contrast will sound in tune when played.
5. Even if the harp plays a bit sharp, it's better to be sharp than flat! Some musicians of other instruments deliberately tune sharp as it gives their sound a greater 'brilliance' against the background - it's a well-known trick.
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I supplied the tuning diagrams to Easttop for the Lucky 13. On a C harp in the lower two octaves the E and B notes are set to zero on the chart, and the C, D, G notes are set to 15 cents sharp. The corresponding reeds are slightly sharpened in the top octave to +5 and +20 cents. This is called Stretching, and is done because the human ear perceives high notes as flat if they are exactly the same as their lower equivalents. It's commonly done on pianos, and customisers do it on harmonicas also.
I have done some gigs with my Lucky 13s with other musicians (eg. at the SPAH concerts) and found no problem with the tuning. No one else from the hundreds of harp players in the audience mentioned it either. However I'm a strong player, and light players might want their harps tuned lower.
If you are concerned about the tuning of your Lucky 13 being too sharp, I strongly recommend getting under the hood and fine tuning to your preference. It doesn't take long, and is something you will want to do on ANY harp as it gets played over a period of time.
However, thanks to all of you for letting me know your thoughts. I will ask Easttop to keep an eye on the tuning to make sure it stays close to my tuning diagram in future batches.
Cheers, Brendan
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Oct 22, 2016 6:29 AM
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