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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Got my first overdraw!
Got my first overdraw!
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John M G
74 posts
Oct 06, 2016
12:52 AM
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I thought I’d make a post and share some of my very recent experiences trying to make a start with overblowing and overdrawing for those who like me have only just come across the concept of overblows and overdraws or are still struggling with the technique.
While I’ve been playing for some 40 odd years, it wasn’t until I came across this forum a couple of years ago that I’d even heard anything at all about the existence or playing techniques for overblows or overdraws.
Up until then, I was pretty much a Lee Oskar user having been put onto them back in the late 80’s as the most reliable and better made harp of that time. These being recommended by Jim Conway one of Sydney’s leading harp players and teachers back then.
I guess like any new technique you have to learn. I wasn’t sure when I first started trying for overblows whether it was my technique or my harmonicas that was wrong. This led to buying some different harmonicas and a fair amount of frustration trying achieve any overblow.
I spent a whole mass of time reading how to set up and gap the reeds. I made an embossing tool and played around with some of the old reed plates from my old Lee Oskars. After a lot of messing about and practice and watching anyone’s and everyone’s YouTube tutorials I finally started to get some results happening on the 6 hole on the modified C harp I was working with.
I’d also bought 4 Seydels and some Suzukis, an A Manji , 3 FireBreaths , 3 Promaster Hammonds. I got a couple of Meisterklasse MS Hohners that were old stock and at a giveaway price and also a couple of Crossovers.
I wasn’t going to die wondering if one of them was a better bet than another and I’d been given advice that some stock harps were better than others, but I’d also been told to start searching out custom harps having got back in touch with Jim after many years.
For anyone setting out trying to add overblows and draws, there is so much advice, but some of it conflicting depending on the source. I’ve heard it said on YouTube Lee Oskars aren’t suitable for overblowing or overdrawing. I was also told the Suzuki FireBreaths were one of the best out the box overblowers.
What I was getting after maybe 4 or 5 months was a reasonably consistent 6 hole overblow on most of my harps below C along with a reasonable 5 overblow and less reliable 4 overblow. I’m still struggling to make them cleanly on a D or higher pitch harp, but they are coming. I can just hear the reed very faintly hum the right pitch but can’t get the reed to fully let go (best as I can describe it).
Overdraws on the other hand had completely got me stumped. I wasn’t getting anywhere. Not a squeak or a squawk, nothing.
That was until last week. I was watching a YouTube tutorial, I’ve watched just about everybody’s tutorials but it just happened to be Will Wilde’s that day. I pulled out my C Firebreath and got my first overdraw on hole 7. I didn’t stop playing that single note for the best part of the day, sometimes clean, sometimes shakey, sometimes nothing but I’d got my first ever overdraw and I was dead chuffed!
I’m 6 days down the track and have been exploring a load of different harps trying to see what ones I can and can’t get to overdraw.
Yesterday I picked up my G Seydel and couldn’t believe it. I had a reasonably solid repeatable clean overdraw going on on hole 7, 8, 9 and 10! It’s a stock harp, not gapped or embossed, straight out of the box. I’ve since tried the other G harps in my kit and found the second best to be the Suzuki Promaster followed by the Crossover, the Lee Oskar really doesn’t seem like it wants to overdraw at all in comparison but I have a C Lee Oskar that has a good 7 overdraw and good 4,5,6 overblows.
What’s clear to me now is that it isn’t just technique to getting consistent overblows and overdraws. The equipment is definitely a major factor.
When I initially started trying to get the easier overblows, I’d had a go at setting up a couple of my older Lee Oskar reed plates and set one up that got me started on the overblows. I had the gaps set so small I was having problems with the reeds just choking and not getting the normal blow and draw notes. I messed around with the gaps and got started and was hearing the notes I was looking for but I’m not super keen on gapping reeds that already have more than enough stress raiser grinding marks running across the reeds which are all shouting out let me break here!
I decided to stop trying to modify harps and simply try and get the overblows with out of the box stock harps.
I found the following when trying to get just overblows. The most difficult harps are the Hohner Meisterklasse MS, but they are higher keys in C and E. I find the reeds squawk and have an almost mechanical rattle. I bought them because they were on special and were the first alloy comb harps I’d ever owned. I don’t think I’d ever buy another one, but I do like the Hohner Crossover harps for their volume but they wouldn’t be my first choice of harp to use to start searching for overblows or overdraws
The Suzuki Promasters I bought are the Hammond ones with the black painted covers. I bought them on eBay from Japan because of price and the alloy combs. I think they’re good value and I’m getting overdraws on both the G and A I have.
The best out of the box overblow and overdraw harp for me and my playing technique has been the Seydel 1847 Classic’s. I don’t like the cheesy plates or screws they use. They strip way to easily and I did have issues with 2 of the 4 harps I bought in the first place (the reed plates were replaced under warranty on the A & G), but having said that, they are the best sounding and playing harmonicas I have in my collection and will likely add an E and C to my collection down the track.
What has surprised me is once I got that first overdraw, it was like the flood gates opened and it all came together quite quickly. I still can’t believe how fast the progress has been after so many months of getting absolutely nothing with the overdraws. I just couldn’t understand how it was being done. The only thing I can think of that helped that day was hearing the note I was trying to get.
I know it’s going to take a whole load of work and practice to make use of these added notes but it’s really nice to have made some progress
Don’t know if anything I’ve put down here will be of help to anyone else looking to get their first overdraws but I couldn’t have done it without all the information and help that’s so generously posted here and over the internet and those of you that have done so many YouTube tutorials. A big thank you.
Sorry if this is a bit long!
Cheers JG
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JustFuya
969 posts
Oct 06, 2016
8:18 AM
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Congratulations. We have a similar timeline. I started on the 6OB tentatively b/c of all the warnings about trying to force it with more wind (a tough nut in itself). After finally managing to find OBs I tackled ODs which came much easier but with a different technique (what I perceive to be a simple passing wag with the tip of my tongue).
I have yet to incorporate any of them into song. I created short licks to practice them although I'm really more of a melody guy. I am loath to practice scales which is probably the best way to add them to the tool set.
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florida-trader
1013 posts
Oct 06, 2016
12:47 PM
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Some quick thoughts about overblowing and overdrawing.
Speaking from the experience I have gathered from building 100’s of harps over the past 5 years, some harps are better suited to be overblow harps than others. In other words, if one of my customers specifically asked me to build them an overblow harp I would NOT use as a foundation a Suzuki ProMaster or Hammond. I would NOT use a Lee Oskar. I would NOT use a Meisterklasse. I’m not saying they are bad harps. Not at all. They are good harps, but they the overblows on these harps tend to squeal. The squeal can be mitigated but why make the extra work for yourself by starting with a harp that is prone to squealing? Of the harps that you listed the Hohner Crossover is a great harp. The Suzuki Manji is great as is the Fire Breath. The Seydel 1847 is a great start.
I question your decision to rely upon OOTB harps when all these harps, with some simple adjustment of the gapping, can be very good OB/OD harps. Call me crazy but it seems a whole lot easier to learn how to adjust the gaps than to going through the hit and miss process of buying OOTB harps. No disrespect, but your concerns about the milling marks creating weak spots on the reeds are unfounded. At the very least, you cold experiment with gapping the reeds on your Manji because there are no milling marks on those reeds. At this stage of the proceedings, it seems you already own an impressive collection of harps. If you are not inclined to learn how to tweak the reed plates on your own, there are any number of competent harp techs who can do it for you and you would save a lot of money.
I’m puzzled by your comment about the Seydel 1847 Silver – “I don’t like the cheesy plates or screws they use. They strip way too easily.” You should not be stripping screws in any brand harp. Me thinks you might be tightening the screws a bit too much. Just sayin.
Bottom line. You are on a learning curve. All of us are right there with you. Some are ahead of you. Some are in your rear view mirror. Some are in the lane right next to you. I believe if you adjust some of your thinking and your approach to this it would serve you well.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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STME58
1850 posts
Oct 06, 2016
12:51 PM
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Until I was able to actually get an overblow out of my harp, I wondered if folks were pulling my leg about it. Kind of like being taken on a "snipe hunt" as a tenderfoot scout!
Having purchased a couple of harps set up by Joe Spiers, I have found that not only are these harps easier to get the overblows on, but as I can play oveblows more easily on the Spiers harps, my ability to get the overblows on my stock harps has improved greatly.
I have also been working on Over the Rainbow in 12th position based on the lesson Konstantin recently presented. As my ability to hit the multiple draw bends on hole 3 improves, so does my ability to hit the overblows.
Iceman has stated that there is a lot of similarity between bends and overblows and that it is mainly our culture of saying they are hard that makes them hard. My recent experience points to confirming this.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 06, 2016 12:54 PM
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slaphappy
232 posts
Oct 06, 2016
3:13 PM
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man if it takes months for somebody just to be able to sound an overdraw it can qualify as "hard" I think.. LOL
I know this is a loaded thing to say around here but in general I think most overbends I hear sound fkn awful and only a handful of players in the world execute them at the level where I actually enjoy hearing those notes. Those who do it that well blow my mind but everyone else just seems like there is this novelty degree of "look what the harmonica can do!" rather than genuine musical expression.
Sorry if I pee'd in anybody's cheerios. Who knows maybe my views will change down the road.. wouldn't be the first time.
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Oct 06, 2016 3:16 PM
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STME58
1851 posts
Oct 06, 2016
8:37 PM
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Hard is relative, it takes years to get bent notes to sound on pitch and with good tone. It took me a while to even sound an overblow, but I was not even sure it could be done. Knowing something can be done is a big deal. Have you ever noticed how after one athlete accomplishes something, like one more turn in a jump or dive, all of the sudden many other athletes at that skill level become quickly able to do it? Or have you ever seen a kid learning to ride a bike riding along just fine util they realize their assistant is no longer supporting them and then they immediately fall over? All I am saying is that how hard you perceive something to be can have a big impact on how long it takes to learn it. Humans are funny that way! Henry Ford put it this way, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!".
I agree that the overblow is still in the novelty stage of harmonica technique. The fact that there are musicians out there that are using it well to expand the capability and expression of the instrument, shows that it is heading out of the novelty stage and becoming part of the standard skill set of a competent player.
I wonder what techniques on other instruments, for example the harmonic octaves on a guitar, started out as "parlor tricks" and how long it took them to become accepted techniques in serious music.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 06, 2016 8:41 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
842 posts
Oct 07, 2016
4:57 AM
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@STME58 - I think circular breathing might fall into that same category with harmonic octaves. Maybe, even more exclusive in the practitioners.
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florida-trader
1014 posts
Oct 07, 2016
7:46 AM
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I’m not sure if I would agree that overblowing and overdrawing are still in the novelty phase. One of the unique aspects of SPAH is that you get to play on lots of different harps. There’s a great expression with artists when they say, “Check your ego at the door.” At SPAH, you check your germophobia at the door. I had about 25-30 demo harps prepped for the show and hundreds of people stopped by to check out my stuff. Most of them played not just one, but several of the demo harps. Most could overblow and overdraw. In fact, there’s no question in my mind is that as they played the various harps they were taking into consideration the tone, the feel, the responsiveness and most definitely how easily it overblew and overdrew. Perhaps SPAH is not illustrative of the general harmonica playing population. In theory is should attract the more dedicated and/or accomplished players so a higher percentage of them will have mastered the OB/OD techniques. It is a skill that is sought after by harmonica enthusiasts all over the world. We have arrived at a point where there is an abundance of instructional information about it on YouTube and other websites. That includes how to play OB/OD and how to set your harps up to make it easier to OB/OD. There is no shortage of music featuring OB/OD and the list of competent harp techs who can assist you in this quest is growing longer every day. Here’s one small bit of advice I would give to anyone who is struggling to learn how to OB/OD. Get one harp from your favorite harp tech that is set up for OB/OD. This will eliminate the mystery as to whether your inability to OB/OD is due to your harps or you. As you go through the learning curve it can be very frustrating (it was for me) because you can’t get it and you have no idea why. Is it me, or is it the harp? Getting a harp that is properly set up will eliminate one problem and you are now one step closer to attaining your goal.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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arzajac
1790 posts
Oct 07, 2016
8:47 AM
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There is a close relation between bending and overbending.
Mechanically, a regular bend is the cooperation of both reeds with both reeds sounding to create the note(s). An overbend is the cooperation of both reeds with one reed standing still and the other reed creating the note.
That's why overbends sound different - they are a single reed bend. They sound more like a half-valved bend (also a single reed bend)
Powerbender harps are a wonderful training tool for overdraws. If you master the draw bends on the top octave (as provided by PowerBender tuning) you get used to using the right muscles you need to play overdraws on a standard Richter-tuned harp. It's a question of fine motor control.
Lots of harps can be made to overdraw. They need to be airtight and responsive. It's interesting that Suzuki Manji family reed plates are a little different than the Harpmaster or Promaster ones. The latter have shorter slots but starting from the 7 hole, the reeds are longer and thinner. On the former (Manji) the longer and thinner starts at the 8 hole.
Longer and thinner may help you when you set the harp for overdraws. So the 7 Overdraw on a Manji can be a little harder to set up than on a Promaster or Harpmaster... And OB 4,5,6 should be a piece of cake on those harps so don't rule them out! Again, they need to be airtight and they will probably need some work in that area especially on the top end (same as any harp).
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